Coming Soon Ultimate HS51 VS Barco Data 808s thread!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Lots of folks wanted me to compare these 2 projectors when i had the small discussion with Darin and others in the Qualia thread a few days back

My HS51 should be arriving around thursday, I got a fabulous deal on it

I have the Barco Data 808s floor mounted and I will be setting up the HS51 on top of it, the Barco has maximized rasters, correct greyscale and is color corrected

my sources components will be (testing of both connections):

JVC 5u deck with HDMI and component
NeuNeo set to 720p with HDMI and component
Dish Network DVR 942 with HDMI and Component

For reference my setup is:

69" wide (79" diagonal) 16:9 screen it is a Draper Cineperm w/ M1300 fabric
Belden 1694a Cables thru-out

seating distance of 126" exactly, a seating distance of roughly 1.85X width

HT room is entirely black, with some gray and no windows or light whatsoever

Comparison will be later this week, I look forward to giving my honest opinion and comparions between them

If anyone has anything they want me to try out then shoot

-Gary
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post #2 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 05:25 PM
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Gary,

It might be a good idea to get an ND2 filter so that you can dim the HS51 down if you want it dimmer (for both white and black) for your screen size. I don't know what size you would need, but here are a couple choices online:

67mm for $17 and 77mm for $30.

You can also get these at camera shops, but might be a little bit smaller.

--Darin

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post #3 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 05:45 PM
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Darin you must have some kind of paging device, that beeps whenever someone makes a post on the CRT forum about contrast ratio and pixel projectors.. :)

It's truly amazing how quick you respond to this stuff.

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post #4 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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To be very honest I could care less as I'm VERY happy with my mint 1209s and two 808's but ask me in five to six years but if a 909 is available that I can afford by then with perfect tubes ask me in ten years :p
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post #5 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike I would love to have your transcoder to try out with my face-off later this week, as the HS51 is said to have a great VGA input, too bad :mad:

-Gary
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post #6 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Tom sadly everyone doesn't own a 1209s, do you think I would have had a thought of a HS51 otherwise?? Hell No

-Gary
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post #7 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 06:37 PM
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Gary did you ever get your focus issue squared away?

Also, please check for image depth (3D like) picture when you compare. I'd be intrested to know. :)

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post #8 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I have eagle eyes and will be comapring every factor of the image, I am so anal about pix quality, I have recently got my Barco 808s the sharpest it has ever been
It took untold weeks of mechanical focus and electrical focus, precise washer placement for flapping correction, along with CRT magnet adjustments and everything else

one will win and if it's the 808s, two will go :D
if it's the HS51 losing I will be upgrading to atleast a 8" LC unit prolly a G70 or a 1352LC

I jsut can't swing a 9" unit at this time, and that is why I decided to give the HS51 a whirl

we shall see later this week, most of the comparison will be true 1080i HDTV material, of which I have a wealth of

also note that I have NEVER!! seen a digital's projected image, only CRT's

-Gary
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post #9 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie
Gary did you ever get your focus issue squared away?

Also, please check for image depth (3D like) picture when you compare. I'd be intrested to know. :)
Depth of image is a critical point. As is image "punchiness".

Also, when HoustonHoyaFan posted a poll, it seems that over 80% of us sit closer than 1.75x with something like 50% of us within 1.5x. To be generally usefull, I would compare them at various seating distance from about 1.4x to 2x.

I am quite curious to see what you think because I'm a 1208/2 owner and although I'm not crazy about halos, there is not enough material that has them to bother me enough to switch to what I view as a lesser picture.

The HS51 deal killers for me are:
1) can't sit at 1.45x screen width
2) very flat and not punchy image
3) not at all "film-like"

Also, it doesn't need to be apples to apples with resolution and such. These are two PJs in the same price range, let them both do what they do best. Feed the HS51 a 720p signal to match native resolution. Feed the barco the resolution you think if looks best at (I like 768p better than 1080i, but you might like 1080i).

Not to bias you, but you will initially be impressed with the HS51's image sharpness at 1.85x, but as time goes on, I'll be very suprised if you like it better than the Barco. And, if you jump up to my 1.45x screen width, I'm betting you like your Barco a whole lot better.

Mike, both you and Clarence have pointed this out! I've looked for the feature that would enable this, but I just can't find it. How does he do it!
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post #10 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I have never been a close sitting person, I always prefer 2x back, i have even had some of my setups at 2.5x back, this is one of the few reasons I think that I may like the HS51

I currently sit at almost 2x back

1080i is far better on the Barco than 720p, 720p shows scan lines at the screen, 1080i has scan lines hitting me in the face on bright scenes at my current 2x, but 1080i does look better on the Barco 808s to me at least

-Gary
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post #11 of 602 Old 06-20-2005, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Also, it doesn't need to be apples to apples with resolution and such. These are two PJs in the same price range, let them both do what they do best. Feed the HS51 a 720p signal to match native resolution. Feed the barco the resolution you think if looks best at (I like 768p better than 1080i, but you might like 1080i).
Just wanted to say that I agree with your thinking here. Both should be setup as they would be used to be useful. Anything that purposely degrades the images from either one is just a scientific experiment and not real useful as far as the questions about the performance people are likely to get. You would be surprised how controversial this opinion has been coming from me. :)

EDIT: Just realized that the HS51 will probably be getting 1080i since there is no scaler, but that is real world and it will just deinterlace and so I think that is good. For devices that can output 720p or 1080i I would say just use whichever one looks best or just pick 1080i if you want to save time and match the DVHS output.

--Darin

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post #12 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 04:33 AM
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This sounds like fun! Will the HS51 and the 808 will both be calibrated? I think this needs to be done to have a fair comparison.

Looking forward to hearing your results/conclusions.
Thanks,
Paul
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post #13 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 07:19 AM
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Sorry but I had the HS51 in my home for a fews months at the beginning of the year and wasn't overly impressed. The HS51 produces a nice picture on its own and on many occasions I found myself saying "that's a nice picture". That was until I replayed the same scene on the G70. The G70 had a depth and "fluidity" about it that gave the picture the sense you could reach out and touch it. With that said I would be surprised if you don't think the HS51 produces a better picture. The 808 is not an LC and I'm also betting that the CRT's also have at least a couple thousand hours on them.


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post #14 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
I have eagle eyes and will be comapring every factor of the image, I am so anal about pix quality, I have recently got my Barco 808s the sharpest it has ever been-Gary
well you certainly need Eagle eyes sitting that far back :D Just joking, but for me 12 feet back from an 84 incher is too far and I feel like I've been "left out" of the movie experience. I'm looking forward to your report, although if your unhappy with the 808 the FPD won't give you happiness. I'm willing to bet that both of those Pjs will be looking for a home soon.


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post #15 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 11:28 AM
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Gary
Sounds like you have the ideal setup to compare the HS51 to a non-LC CRT, > 1.75 x width, and "dark/black" walls/ceilings/floors.

I agree with GScott that I would be surprised if the HS51 did not have a better picture than a non-LC CRT. I currently own both a HS51 and a G70. The G70 is only half a step better IMO.

Looking forward to your shootout review!
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post #16 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 11:43 AM
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Hope this shootout goes better then your Momitsu vs NeuNeo thread.

=Brian
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post #17 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
I agree with GScott that I would be surprised if the HS51 did not have a better picture than a non-LC CRT. I currently own both a HS51 and a G70. The G70 is only half a step better IMO.
Really? I'm going to be surprised if he likes the HS51 better. I really am curious.

I really wanted to like the HS51--seriously. I just couldn't. I've got a non-LC 8" and the PQ is significantly more than a half a step better. I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic here, but if the G70 only looks a half a step better than your HS51, you or someone needs to spend some time with the G70 to get it dialed in.

Because of this thread, I just went to check out HS51 some more. Just a couple of hours ago, I spent about an hour or so with one. The two deal killers for me are:
1) Horrible screen door even at 1.75x viewing distance
2) Of all the artifacts this thing has, the color fringing is the second worst (to the screen door).

(A close third on my dislike list is that movies don't look "film-like" at all.)

With regard to number 1, I can still see screen door on some scenes from 2x back. I know there are lenses that introduce a gaussian blur to improve the PQ of pixel projectors making them look more like a CRT (since a CRT has essentially a gaussian blur as a result of the technology), but I have unfortunately not seen one in action. Perhaps if Gary does like the HS51 enough he can grab one of these lenses and see if it can give the HS51 a smoother, non-screendoor, film-like look.

About number two, I'm probably sensitive since I can see when my projector is slightly out of convergence even though people I point it out to can't see it. On the HS51, the fringing does get worse the closer you get to the HS51's max throw. Gary, you might want to look for this on tall vertical white things like columns and such. Perhaps you will be able to place it close enough to minimize it, but I saw it even at the minumum throw distance.

There are other aspects like how involving the movie is when watching it. I don't know how to quantify it, but the movie is significantly less involving for me on the HS51. I don't know if it is because of all the artifacts, the 2 dimensional image, or all of the above. Gary, I don't know if you'll do a better job than me quantifying the "suspension of disbelief" or "involvement" factor, but I am curious to see what you think on this aspect too.

When Sony has decided that it has bilked all the money it can out of the consumer with this device and they decide to release the 1080p verision to fuel a new round of purchases, I will be eager to see if the increase in resolution and any other tweaking they do really moves this PJ up a significant notch.

Looking forward to your opinion Gary.

Dave
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post #18 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 12:58 PM
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What kind of color fringing? Something that looks like convergence errors? Do you think this is caused by chromatic errors in the lenses, or...?
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post #19 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm
well you certainly need Eagle eyes sitting that far back :D Just joking, but for me 12 feet back from an 84 incher is too far and I feel like I've been "left out" of the movie experience.
I'm with you. Gary, the THX recommendation for the MAXIMUM distance you should sit from your size screen is about 2 feet closer than you are sitting. Have you considered moving up by the Barco's lenses? Seeing your theater, in my opinion you would get two benefits:
1) A more involving experience (hence the THX recommendation)
2) Better sound from the surrounds than being against the back wall, including the ability to get a nice 6.1 or 7.1 sound field.

Dave
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post #20 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz
What kind of color fringing? Something that looks like convergence errors? Do you think this is caused by chromatic errors in the lenses, or...?
It looks just like a convergence error. I certainly don't know these digital PJs like Darin does, so maybe he can explain the reason, but I see it talked about all the time in digital reviews. The easiest way to see it is to put up an all white screen and look at the edges to see if you see one of the primaries. Oddly, the two HS51s that I've spent some time with (not just casually looking at them), both had red shifted a little left and green shifted a little right. To my knowledge, there is no way to fix this.

Dave
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post #21 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
the Barco has maximized rasters, correct greyscale and is color corrected
I thought your 808s was colour filtered as well? ... (All PJ's are colour corrected... Didn't you change the glycol or change to HD144's?)

Kal

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post #22 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz
What kind of color fringing? Something that looks like convergence errors? Do you think this is caused by chromatic errors in the lenses, or...?
It could be either one or both. The convergence error can vary quite a bit between individual 3 chip/panel projectors. I've heard that Sony was dialing the convergence in (or swapping optical blocks for gross errors) on units that had been sent in for firmware updates, but I don't have any experience with that. I'm not positive, but I think even dirty lenses can contribute to chromatic aberations. As I've mentioned to one CRT owning friend, one thing about CRTs is that you have to worry about convergence, but the good thing is that you can do something about it. Single chip DLPs don't have convergence errors, but can have chromatic aberations. The HD2K can be tweaked for convergence at the factory or by William Phelps (within limits), but not by users. Some of the older D-ILAs could be tweaked for convergence with Dilard by users, but this is an electronic shift and so couldn't fix convergence errors that different than consistent offsets.

I think panel alignment can also effect how well one of these will defocus to help reduce SDE. One direction of defocus is usually better than the other also.

As far as predictions, I think that Gary Murrel's comment here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
1080i is far better on the Barco than 720p, 720p shows scan lines at the screen, 1080i has scan lines hitting me in the face on bright scenes at my current 2x, but 1080i does look better on the Barco 808s to me at least
gives a pretty good clue about whether SDE is likely to bother him on the HS51 inside 2x.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
When Sony has decided that it has bilked all the money it can out of the consumer with this device
Now that is a funny comment IMO.

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post #23 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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My Barco 808s is set up very very well, I would like to see someone do better, I have many many years experience with CRT units, but have never been lucky enough to own a 9" unit

and yes the unit has been color filtered as well with brand new Sony green and red glycol

I have roughly 4000 hours on my tubes, there is no way I would sink anymore money into this pj to buy new tubes

I suspect me and my family will be very pleased with the HS51, I think most if not all folks are complaining about the unit due to the average 1.5x from screen distance that most everyone uses

my entire family always sits in the very back row of all the commercial theaters, thats just the way we are, I think that THX's guidelines are too close, I much prefer Smpte's guidelines and have always used them in my theaters

I could not bear to sit any closer to the Barco due to massive scan lines on 1080i material, on bright scenes they are there badly, of course with 720p they are not

If I am in fact bothered by SDE I will order a IMX and try it out, I have also been looking into the panamorph products

USABrian who had my exact CRT pj and claims to be very anal about pix quality says he loves the HS51 from 2 times back, under that no dice
he now has his Barco for sale :)

Can't wait to get the HS51 in and give it a whirl with some good HDTV content, if it is 90% as good as the Barco it stays due to my total frustration with the CRT technology that I have used for over 7 years now

It will most likely be a stop gap for the next fabulous(hopefully 1080p) LCD from Sony

my opinion will be fair and balanced like my favorite news station, Fox News :D

-Gary
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post #24 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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So Darin you think that screen door will bother me or not, I don't know how to take your comments ??

my only worry is SDE, black level is not what I would call great with my non LC 808 anyway, halo's are so annoying they have destroyed movies for me, no joke!!

slightly less black level can be accepted, many users have told me shadow detail would be better

Can't wait to lay these beasts down beside each other

-Gary
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post #25 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
So Darin you think that screen door will bother me or not, I don't know how to take your comments ??
I meant that your sensitivity to seeing scanlines even at your viewing distance probably means that you are more likely to also see SDE. Basically, you sound like you would fall into the eagle eyed category (like you said) and the guidelines are just guidelines because people have different sensitivities. I will be interested to hear your results though.

As far as the IMX, I know somebody has one for sale used (not mine) and so you might want to check for a used one if you decide to go that way.

I assume that your budget doesn't leave room for the Optoma H79, even at current prices.

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post #26 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Now that is a funny comment IMO.
Let's face it, there is not a technological limitation keeping them from making 1920x1080 LCD panels. It's all about the Benjamins!
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post #27 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 03:32 PM
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I looked at a Cannon SX50 today and did the best I could calibrating it and trying to tame this light cannon. Even after adding a magenta filter and turning down the R G & B gain all the way, I still couldn't get anythhing that even resembled black. Got a great grey scale and a picture you could watch and pixel structure wasn't bad at all. Picture was very sharp and to bright (ie turning down the gains) initially but I got that under control.
If they can ever get black (or anything close in this case) and a more fluid look to the picture (desktop shading was really funky at it's native rate, 32 bit color), a $5K price (which was the msrp on this one), dILA will be pretty neat.
Man was it bright......and blue!!

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post #28 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
\\I assume that your budget doesn't leave room for the Optoma H79, even at current prices.
Well, that's a whole other set of issues and artifacts! My brain must be slow to processes things, but I can't watch a single chipper for that long. It fatiques the h*** out of me. I think it overclocks my optical cortex or something with all the rapidly flashing colors. Have not there been science fiction movies where they brainwash people with rapidly flashing colors?
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post #29 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Let's face it, there is not a technological limitation keeping them from making 1920x1080 LCD panels. It's all about the Benjamins!
They are in business for the the Benjamins. :) Just like when most of us care about them when we buy things or when most people sell their services (go to work). But if 1080p LCD was simple for them then I can't think of any reason that Sony would have purposely withheld 1080p LCD last year when the HS51 was introduced. Why wouldn't they crush their competition with it if it was this easy? It wasn't like they were the 600 lb Gorilla of the FP market that would have justified a strategy of withholding something good and easy. In other words, if it was really as easy as you seem to think then "about the Benjamins" would have probably meant releasing an LCD projector with 1080p.

The rumor that seems reasonable to me at the moment is that Sony will introduce 1080p LCD next year after they have implemented some new technology to their LCD panels that came from their work with SXRD (LCOS). But I expect them to still have 720p projectors also because the market wants those (just as part of the market obviously wants the HS51).

This is somewhat of a side note, but it seems that comments that companies could have done these advancements earlier are common here on these forums. And if these companies had introduced the same technology 2 years earlier, many of the same people would still be claiming they had held out to "bilk" people. No matter when a technology is introduced somebody will claim that it could and should have been earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuchuf
I looked at a Cannon HX50 today and did the best I could calibrating it and trying to tame this light cannon.
I think that would could be good for a room where there is a reasonable amount of external ambient light. Then it could be matched with a gray screen to maintain CR with that light. But in a room with no lights on, I think you are right that the blacks aren't very good. Being that it is mostly a business projector, hopefully Cannon can do better the next time around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Well, that's a whole other set of issues and artifacts! My brain must be slow to processes things, but I can't watch a single chipper for that long.
Or maybe your brain and/or vision are actually fast. Although I don't think enough people are bothered to hurt TI's sales much (as is pretty much evidenced by the market performances) there are definitely some people who are bothered by the single chip DLPs. And there are some who are bothered for the first day or week and then not after that.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #30 of 602 Old 06-21-2005, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats pretty much what I tought you meant Darin, mind you I never found them that bothering to me, ocassionally I would see them faintly on bright scenes, but I knew they were there to say the least, speaking of the scan lines at 1080i

-Gary
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