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Old 09-01-2005, 11:33 AM
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If people wanted to stay then they wanted to stay, this is a free country. If they died because of their decision, then so be it.

Jeff

Mediocrity will always appeal to the masses, while excellence is most often over looked and only appreciated by a select few.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA
Perhaps my neighbor said it best, "just because you are poor, that's no reason to be filthy".
He was of referring to a former tenant who failed to keep his apartment clean which resulted in a cockroach infestation.

Every city has its lower socioeconomic sections as do we. Sure enough it's in these neighborhoods trash is everywhere, grafitti covers the walls, yards go unserviced, buildings go unpainted, sanitation goes unchecked, etc. The whole mindset of the community is 'who cares?'.
A few blocks away is a shining example of America's finest city.

Yes, though I don't approve, I have to agree with the poster, these folks are disenfranchised. They do have a totally different mindset.

Its amazing the difference in mindset. I was talking w/ some young people in north philadelphia (one of the poorest areas here) he was complaining about his neighborhood, and said "they should have somebody clean it"

I said who are they? His response " I dont know"

I said how do you think it got like this? Who breaks bottles and throws trash and garbage in the streets? I reminded him of an occaision when, i was driving him home and he threw a potato chip bag out of the window of my car.

He still didnt see the connection.

The mentality is mind boggling. I deal w/ kids (and adults) wo dont know how to keep their own environment clean or maintained.

One more anecdote (I may have posted this before)

I have a friend who works for the Public housing agency here. They were De-centralizing the hot water system inthe complex, by putting apartment sized heaters in each unit. After a few days he got a call that one unit had no hot water. As he walked up to the apartment unit(they are duplexes) he noticed water running out from the front door. He knocks and someone opened the door. He opend the utility closet (next to the front door) and Voila! no hot water because there was no heater! Someone had cut the pipes taken the heater (obviously sold for drugs) and bent the supply line over w/ a pair of pliers.

These folks were still just sitting in the living room watching TV while water was running from the pipe.

When he asked they said it was just like that!

That is the mentality, totally un-empowered, completely dis-affected.

Its the most frustrating, and depressing thing ive ever seen!

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Stepan, you fail to understand something. In America, it is not the government's responsibility to save people from disasters. It is the individual's responsibility to save him/herself.

This is not (yet) a nanny state.
I do not get it, so why do you have police? In this point of view it would be individuals responsibility to protect themselves!
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stepan
I do not get it, so why do you have police?

Come on! Are you serious???

Jeff

Mediocrity will always appeal to the masses, while excellence is most often over looked and only appreciated by a select few.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stepan
I do not get it, so why do you have police? In this point of view it would be individuals responsibility to protect themselves!
The police are there to enforce the law. To find the bad guys and arrest them.

Courts have ruled that it is not the police department's responsibility to protect people. Sad, but true. Yet they make it harder and harder for us to protect ourselves.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Stepan, you fail to understand something. In America, it is not the government's responsibility to save people from disasters. It is the individual's responsibility to save him/herself.

This is not (yet) a nanny state.

I hate to disagree, but it is the governments Duty to protect its citizens.

The problem i have w/ Stepans post is How?

How do you forcibly evacuate half a million people, in a 48hour period. Probably less cause you dont want to be evac'in people while the storm rages.

How do you pay for this, where do you get the manpower?

Its easy to point fingers now, but i dont think its accurate.

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emdawgz1
I hate to disagree, but it is the governments Duty to protect its citizens.

The problem i have w/ Stepans post is How?

How do you forcibly evacuate half a million people, in a 48hour period. Probably less cause you dont want to be evac'in people while the storm rages.

How do you pay for this, where do you get the manpower?

Its easy to point fingers now, but i dont think its accurate.
It is their duty as you or I would read the Constitution, but the Courts have absolved them of that responsibility. I'll see if I can find the case that I'm referring to. It is popularly cited by NRA to drum up membership.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
The police are there to enforce the law. To find the bad guys and arrest them.

Courts have ruled that it is not the police department's responsibility to protect people. Sad, but true. Yet they make it harder and harder for us to protect ourselves.

Hate to disagree again but most police forces are there to "protect and serve"

Protect the property and citizens that they serve.

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Old 09-01-2005, 11:42 AM
 
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Yeah! Why to protect from murders when a great nature murder comes, and according to Acura, averyone is responsible to protect himself from this nature-murder?
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJMon
Come on! Are you serious???
Yeah! Why to protect from murders when a great nature murder comes, and according to Acura, averyone is responsible to protect himself from this nature-murder?
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:48 AM
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Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981).

"Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the leading cases of this type. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers."

The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." There are many similar cases with results to the same effect."

(from http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.htm)

These cases too are cited on that web site:

"See, for example, Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958); Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1968); Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1983); Calogrides v. City of Mobile, 475 So.2d 560 (S.Ct. A;a. 1985); Morris v. Musser, 478 A.2d 937 (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894 (S.Ct. Cal. 1982); Chapman v. City of Philadelphia, 434 A.2d 753 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1981); Weutrich v. Delia, 155 N.J. Super 324, 326, 382 A.2d 929, 930 (1978); Sapp v. City of Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla.Ct. of Ap. 1977); Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E. 2d 871 (Ind.Ct. of Ap.); Silver v. City of Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (S.Ct. Minn. 1969) and Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 61 (7th Cir. 1982). "

And later on that web page, evidently it's not only case law, it's codified:

"Many states, however, have specifically precluded such claims, barring lawsuits against State or local officials for failure to protect, by enacting statutes such as California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846 which state, in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee [may be sued] for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals."
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:57 AM
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The court found that the Government is not obliged to provide protection to "individual citizens", and therefore not liable in a lawsuit.

We're not talking about individuals or lawsuits. I'm talking in general terms, yes the government is duty bound to protect the citizens in general.

Thats why the FDA tests drugs before release.
and the epa protects water and air (i know, dont laugh)
If i were govenor of LA or MS, or the mayor of NO, I'd be feeling bad today. Not that they could have prevented this but id really be looking at what happened and after the rescue and recovery is underway, i'd work on a new set of emergency plans.

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emdawgz1
The problem i have w/ Stepans post is How?

How do you forcibly evacuate half a million people, in a 48hour period. Probably less cause you dont want to be evac'in people while the storm rages.

How do you pay for this, where do you get the manpower?

Its easy to point fingers now, but i dont think its accurate.
It would need coordinated action of army, police, and private institutions lending vehicles. It is doable. Army surely has plans for coordinating evacuation of such high numbers of people. If they wanted they could do it.
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:15 PM
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Part of the problem with evacuating NO was logistical-- one road in and one road out.

I was in Mobile, AL last week as Katrina went through Florida. From what I saw locally, the thought at the time (Thursday) was that it was going to go through the panhandle and it wouldn't strenghthen to anything more than a Cat 3. The bartender at the hotel said that he was going to stay as the company gives them an extra $50/day to stay during a hurricane and that he'd clean up in tips.

With the uncertainty of strength and location, a longer lead time for a complete evacuation order just can't be done. That is, at 48 hours, you'll have a good idea of where it's going to go, but more than that and you would have to evacuate a much larger area which would encompass logistical problems an order a magnitude higher.
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:42 PM
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Citing law cases is absurd. Declare martial law if you need to in order to protect the people, even if they are too stupid to accept the help.

A good analogy is seat belt/helmet laws. They are lawful because the community has to pay for all the costs associated with greater injuries to drivers who aren't wearing them, even if those drivers are too stupid to wear them voluntarily. In this case, the cost of rescuing some idiot who thought a cat 5 hurricane would be just like any other storm and decided to ride it out far exceeds the minor trampling of civil liberties that would have thrown his sorry butt out of the city.

Healthy skepticism is the best component for your HT
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:53 PM
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Martial law may roll easily off the tongue of someone whose country did not fight a war for its independence. Down here, we value freedom, even if it is the freedom to be stupid.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Down here, we value freedom, even if it is the freedom to be stupid.
NOT TRUE! You ban stupid people driving so fast that they can injure or kill another people...
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:13 PM
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Let's keep this thread from being shut down. Stepan, & others Kool it!!
We have enough problems with Katrina

We used to hunt and fish to survive. Now we have to work 50 wks. a year so we can take a couple of weeks off to hunt and fish
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Gentlemen,
Both points of view are correct: Our cherished freedoms and the appropriate action of the authorities for the greater good during a crisis.

Please just avoid political controversies as that will surely close down this thread.

Thanks, CMRA
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
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Relax Robert, the world isn't coming to an end.....well at least not yet ;)
This from another message board I read. The poster is in Houston.

Quote:
Latest from CNN: A hospital had to stop patient evacuations because of SNIPER fire.

Also, my hospital is shipping one of its two backup generators to a NOLA hospital because looters STOLE THE HOSPITAL'S GENERATOR WHICH WAS KEEPING LIFE SUPPORT PATIENTS ALIVE.

Another NOLA hospital has barred its doors because people are trying to break in and steal prescription medications.


I thought "Lord of the Flies" type of living didn't kick in until after a couple weeks, not a couple days.

If something major were to affect most of the world, my hope that humanity would overcome is fading quickly.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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"I thought "Lord of the Flies" type of living didn't kick in until after a couple weeks, not a couple days.

If something major were to affect most of the world, my hope that humanity would overcome is fading quickly. "

I'm following all this on FOX, CNN, and MSNBC. I can't help but wonder if faced under the same conditions, how would I fair? Surely I'd be tired, cranky, dirty, and most likely hungry too.
The good news is I witness the great majority of the population is coping with the situation and obeying the authorities under this MOST adverse of conditions.
In light of everything these folks have suffered these past few days, from my viewpoint at least, they are doing remarkably well. My hat tips and my heart salutes these 'good' citizens. The handful of trouble makers seem to always make it difficult for the rest.
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:00 PM
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Robert, dont forget what happened on 9/11 New Yorkers, NEW YORKERS, pulled together and helped each other.

Remember also the power failure of a couple of years ago, i thought People were gonna destroy the place. but other than a couple of flare ups in the bronx it wasnt an issue.


The difference imho was in the response of the law. In the no situation the law was slow to respond to the anarchy, and it spread quickly.

In ny they followed the "Powell Doctrine", respond with a strong visible presence that discouraged all but the hard core.

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:03 PM
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Now even Fats Domino is missing.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168122,00.html
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:04 PM
 
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WOW! i just looked on news, and thats one BIG MESS going on there...
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:07 PM
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Cajunmom82, if you're still reading this thread, there is another family check in message board here:

http://katrinafamiliesandfriends.com/PHPbb2/index.php
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA
"I thought "Lord of the Flies" type of living didn't kick in until after a couple weeks, not a couple days.

If something major were to affect most of the world, my hope that humanity would overcome is fading quickly. "

I'm following all this on FOX, CNN, and MSNBC. I can't help but wonder if faced under the same conditions, how would I fair? Surely I'd be tired, cranky, dirty, and most likely hungry too.
The good news is I witness the great majority of the population is coping with the situation and obeying the authorities under this MOST adverse of conditions.
In light of everything these folks have suffered these past few days, from my viewpoint at least, they are doing remarkably well. My hat tips and my heart salutes these 'good' citizens. The handful of trouble makers seem to always make it difficult for the rest.

The other thing to recognize is the source of these reports. Typically American TV news accenuates the dramatic. So they have been running and re running the same footage of people looting. So what are we talking about here. A thousand or so people out of the estimated 150-200k people stranded in the city. Those numbers arent bad. I have carefully avoided the worst (imho) of the tabloid news sources, Faux, CNN headline, and all of the locals. I skim CNN and have watched mostly BBC and BBC America. In their coverage the looting got 45secs and that was it.

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:46 PM
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"Dont forget what happened on 9/11 New Yorkers, NEW YORKERS, pulled together and helped each other."

Yes, and not to minimize in any way that terror, but there were no widespread issues of basic survival in New York. The people in New Orleans, Slidell, and other now nonexistent communities don't have any food, any shelter, any potable water. Not only that but many of them have no basis for hoping that things will change by the time the situation becomes life threatening - virtually all of the possible relief options can't even get close, let alone get to each person.

Each of them could be given $1,000.00 cash and it wouldn't help them at all. That's grim.

I am NOT excusing the theft and violence (the video shots of people clearly cherry-picking store merchandise shelves and the reports of shots in hospitals are simply unacceptable). But it's almost impossible to judge most of the sights we see: they perceive that their lives are under immediate threat, for which they may not have the luxury of waiting in hope that relief will arrive in time.

Regards,

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Old 09-01-2005, 03:01 PM
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CNN reports that a aircraft carrrier is only just now leaving norfolk for NO,, by the time it gets there and is used as a base to co-ordinate relief efforts many more will die/get shot/ carjacked and just general goonery/law of the jungle will prevail, such incompetence deserves somebody a$$ being hauled on the carpet for some accountabilty and if the answers are not satisfactory they should be fired, remember the world is watching and must be wondering if they can,t even help themselves how can the world depend on the yanks helping anybody? not exactly americas finest hour, i can,t figure it out with the almost non-response of the mighty USA milatary , is it a race thing? or what?..........

behind every successful man is a suprised mother-inlaw......
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Old 09-01-2005, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Methinks it's a bureaucratic issue. I was just listening to CNN and they pointed out there are "50" agengies involved with the aftermath.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:28 PM
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Americans are NEVER fricken' happy with anything. Yeah I hate Bush and the whole administration but at the same time i'm not b-tching about everything that goes on. I mean do some of you's really think that the the federal government is just sitting around picking their noses saying f-ck'em, let them suffer....Give me a break people.

Jeff

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