Ruby: CRT Challenger? (merged threads) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:06 PM
 
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I care less about contrast ratio, show me the image.
??? I don't think you really mean that mike...
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post #182 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:20 PM
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I truly truly understand what you mean Chris, but the most we ever hear about digital is its improvement in contrast ratio, but still, the same claims of poor black level performance. So if it's not quite were it should be (in relation to CRT), why even bother with the numbers.

The Ruby sounds like one remarkable projector. Finally, there seems to be something digital that's worth attention. but is it there yet? Are we ready for it? should we wait until it's there in the low end?

Or should we keep following the daily opinion reports.

let me also say, that I'm also looking for something that will replace CRT, but would rather wait until it can reach that unique performance of CRT, as well to be at a cost a broke guy like me can afford.

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post #183 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
??? I don't think you really mean that mike...
Maybe he just doesn't understand contrast ratio and it's implications. How about the following:

I care less about colors, show me the image.
I care less about the resolution, show me the image.
...

I'm guessing this is one of those cases where somebody will try to make some ridiculous statement like, "You said that ANSI CR was better on the digital, but we looked at "Dark City" and the CRT had better blacks in there. So you're wrong."

BTW: The Ruby doesn't have the best ANSI CR. Better than any CRTs I've seen, but behind good DLPs.

--Darin

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post #184 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748
I truly truly understand what you mean Chris, but the most we ever hear about digital is its improvement in contrast ratio, but still, the same claims of poor black level performance. So if it's not quite were it should be (in relation to CRT), why even bother with the numbers.
I was typing the above before your response. I was partially joking about you not understanding contrast ratio, but this response by you sure seems to indicate that you don't. Do you even understand the difference between ANSI CR and on/off CR? If so, why post the above?

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post #185 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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but the most we ever hear about digital is its improvement in contrast ratio, but still, the same claims of poor black level performance.
You hear about the improvements because:

1) there is room for improvements, i.e. it isn't there yet
and
2) because people care about the fact that the on/off CR is not up to CRT yet, they SEE that the black level isn't there yet, and that's directly on/off CR limitations.

Quote:
So if it's not quite were it should be (in relation to CRT), why even bother with the numbers.
Because we want better displays, right? If it's not there yet, we should care about that fact, and we do. That's why we quantify how much on/off capability is there, and see how things are improving in approaching CRT on/off CR levels. If this wasn't quantified, we'd all throw our hands up and nothing would improve with digital projectors, and they'd have the same horrible on/off CR of 1,000:1 or even less, that they had some years ago.

So your statement doesn't really make sense when you dig into it, because at heart with the focus on numbers is quantifying exactly what the black level performance is going to be like, and whether or not it's good enough.

It's kind of like saying "Ideally I want a vehicle that can do something like 80mph on the freeway"
and then saying "I don't care how fast it goes"
when you're looking at a scooter that can go 15mph
and some car that can go 70mph.

That's a difference, and if it's less than your "ideal" number, you should care about how close or far away from that ideal you are, because the difference between 15mph and 70mph is pretty huge, and while 70mph isn't your ideal, it's a LOT closer than 15mph, and that's an important improvement.
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post #186 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2
BTW: The Ruby doesn't have the best ANSI CR. Better than any CRTs I've seen, but behind good DLPs.

--Darin
Here we go again... Ok, it was my faulk, I left the door open.

No, I know nothing about contrast ratio, so why don't you (the expert) make a personal apperance (bring your Ruby) to my shop, and then you can teach me about contrast ratio. And I will also help you out, by showing you where digital has to go to really catch up to CRT in low end performance.

I'll even show you how much better the colors can be when you're able to get at absolute black.

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post #187 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748
Here we go again... Ok, it was my faulk, I left the door open.

No, I know nothing about contrast ratio, so why don't you (the expert) make a personal apperance (bring your Ruby) to my shop, and then you can teach me about contrast ratio. And I will also help you out, by showing you where digital has to go to really catch up to CRT in low end performance.

I'll even show you how much better the colors can be when you're able to get at absolute black.
This has to be one of your funniest posts ever. You're going to teach me how on/off CR helps images? That is a good one. Or did you not understand that what you just described about low end performance is largely about on/off CR? You aren't naive enough to think you are getting absolute black in those brighter mixed images are you?

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post #188 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:47 PM
 
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Mike, I think Darin jumped in a little hard, but I can understand why the bells start ringing in his head, because what you said did sound strangely similar to things that we hear often that go something like:

"I don't care what the on/off CR, care about how good the blacks are!"

Which is a silly thing to say, because on/off CR *defines* your absolute black level performance.

I also think that we should all be aware that Darin is probably one of the most extreme people I know of in terms of caring about absolute black levels, and also instantaneous black levels. I don't know of anyone else with black velvet covering their room for the absolute best ANSI CR, and I also don't know of anyone else who is getting higher static on/off CR out of a digital projector than darin's personally modded H79.

So lets not get into bickering, I think we all know in intuitively how the pictures look, but it is important to understand how you quantify that, and also how important it is to quantify that, because darin is correct, I just hope he didn't rub you the wrong way because at the end of the day Darin is probably the most extreme in caring about blacks of anyone I know, and it's why he talks about on/off CR and ANSI CR so much. I think maybe his post came off nastier than necessary, but at heart all 3 of us definitely should be in agreement.
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post #189 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
So your statement doesn't really make sense when you dig into it, because at heart with the focus on numbers is quantifying exactly what the black level performance is going to be like, and whether or not it's good enough.
I have no interest what-so-ever in the process. Nor am I concerned about the trip along the way.

And... it does not make sense, to even discuss something that's not quite there yet. Sort of like taking a turkey out of the oven before it's done.

Plus, it would make more sense if someone who wanted to know about these things would visit the forum that deals with these things...

This digital in your face, when I'm trying to fix or understand what's wrong with my CRT, reminds me of POP UP ADS.

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post #190 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:54 PM
 
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I have no interest what-so-ever in the process. Nor am I concerned about the trip along the way.

And... it does not make sense, to even discuss something that's not quite there yet. Sort of like taking a turkey out of the oven before it's done.
Well, that's a pretty incendiary statement, essentially you are saying you don't care at all about digitals until on/off CR is equal to CRT CR? Do you watch movies at a theater? They don't have near the on/off CR of even the digitals we're talking about, yet I'm sure you enjoy a good film presentation.

Saying you don't care about the process, and you don't care about how things are improving, and you don't care about quantifying on/off CR or black level performance, again I don't think you want to say that and stand behind it, because that's almost akin to saying that you don't care about what makes a good image good at all.

That all seems totally bizarre coming from you mike, because I know you DO care about the image, so you DO care about on/off and ANSI CR and black performance. I can't fathom why you'd claim otherwise.
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post #191 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
I also think that we should all be aware that Darin is probably one of the most extreme people I know of in terms of caring about absolute black levels, and also instantaneous black levels. I don't know of anyone else with black velvet covering their room for the absolute best ANSI CR, and I also don't know of anyone else who is getting higher static on/off CR out of a digital projector than darin's personally modded H79.
:confused:

I see now that i'm going to have to say good bye here. Darin is an absolute black purist that owns digital... :confused: Now if digital cannot produce those absolute blacks, what's the black velvet for.. :confused:


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post #192 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mp20748
I see now that i'm going to have to say good bye here. Darin is an absolute black purist that owns digital... :confused: Now if digital cannot produce those absolute blacks, what's the black velvet for.. :confused:
Somebody should really explain ANSI CR to you. The black velvet doesn't help on/off CR, which is where the CRTs excel.

--Darin

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post #193 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:03 PM
 
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what's the black velvet for..
ANSI contrast.

I really don't know where you're coming from mike, I mean I can come up with many statements that are just the same as "I don't care about on/off I just want good absolute
blacks."

You could say all the following with the same level of absurdity:

I don't care about primary chromaticities, I just want good colors
I dont' care about color temperature, I just want accurate grayscale
I don't care about ANSI contrast I just want good shadow detail
I don't care about refresh rates, I just don't want flicker
I don't care about resolution, I just don't want to see scanlines or pixels.

I mean, all these are silly, because they berate the EXACT thing that in large part tells you whether or not a display achieves what you want it to. And that includes "not caring about contrast" but caring about blacks. that's nuts. :confused: :(
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post #194 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2
which is where the CRTs excel.

--Darin

Thank you, we both agree here.

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post #195 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:05 PM
 
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CRT is the APEX!
In on/off contrast it is.

And overall it may still be. There's more to black than absolute black or on/off CR, too. Instantaneous CR is not just on/off CR, which is where ANSI is also important. If ALL you care about is on/off CR, then CRT is your display, but there are other issues too, no display is perfect, and reference or not, neither is CRT.
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post #196 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mp20748
Thank you, we both agree here.
I've been saying that CRTs were better at on/off CR from the projector (turning lights on changes everything of course) for a couple of years now, so I'm glad you've at least figured that one out.

--Darin

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post #197 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2
I've been saying that CRTs were better at on/off CR from the projector (turning lights on changes everything of course) for a couple of years now, so I'm glad you've at least figured that one out.

--Darin
It was so simple to know and understand, that even I could comprehend it.

Aint that nice.. :D

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post #198 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
I mean, all these are silly, because they berate the EXACT thing that in large part tells you whether or not a display achieves what you want it to. And that includes "not caring about contrast" but caring about blacks. that's nuts. :confused: :(


Ooh, have I hit a nerve here.. :) Is it really that serious.. :)

OK, when digital GETS THERE, please let me know. In the mean time, I'll skip the daily news blob, because I careless with the progression of digital. When it reaches the performance level of my Marquee - holla at me.. :D

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post #199 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:25 PM
 
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Ooh, have I hit a nerve here.. Is it really that serious..
:mad: :mad: :mad:

How DARE you mike!

There are childrens' lives on the line here!!! :eek:

:D ;) :)

Quote:
when digital GETS THERE, please let me know. In the mean time, I'll skip the daily news blob, because I careless with the progression of digital. When it reaches the performance level of my Marquee - holla at me..
So yes, you can make a legitimate claim that you don't care or want to hear about digitals until they hit 20,000:1 or 30,000:1 on/off. But I think that you should not berate on/off CR, or make misleading statements that insinuate that on/off CR and absolute black level performance are not the same thing, because they are the same thing.

I personally am interested in how things are progressing, and learning about what is different, either better or worse, among different displays. If ALL we cared about was on/off CR, ok, I will know when to 'holla back,' but there are a lot of other things involved than just on/off CR. But for on/off CR right now, there aint no holla back girl, there aint no holla back girl. :p
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post #200 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:28 PM
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This is the thing I still don't like about my CRT, in bright scenes with some black, I *don't* get absolute blacks anymore.

I love that a fade to black plunges you into total darkness, but really hate that on a mixed scene, my blacks don't stay black. The scene doesn't even have to be all *that* bright.
Even the opening of Star Wars when the destroyer comes in over the top of screen, the inky black starfield lifts up to grey.
And that is in my pretty damn black room (velvet ceiling, 1/3 velvet walls, with dark fabric the rest of the walls)
Mixed scenes on my CRT end up having almost what you would call a really faint 'veil' across the image, that once you notice , drives you nuts. The newer digitals don't have that problem, they look like someone took some windex to screen - but I haven't seen one that plunges me into total darkness when the picture fades down either (but I haven't seen the absolute latest models).

So it really is annoying that you still have to pick one preference over the other.

Anyone saying that they don't care about contrast is just nuts, does that mean you wouldn't prefer an LC CRT over an air coupled one? Because if that is the case, I'd gladly swap my non-LC unit for an LC one with anyone that doesn't care about contrast.

I think it is pretty obvious that with irises, extra panels and other techniques that it won't be very long before you can get absolute black on a well designed digital, an I can't wait till they are affordable, it would be nice to remove the veil.

Having said that though, I don't think I'll ever sell my CRT, it is like a 50s hotrod, fun to work on, and has a whole community of enthusiasts that are fun to talk to, hang out with, swap stories and techniques etc. There is a real community around CRT projectors because of their 'hands on' nature which I enjoy and love, but it doesn't mean I have to ignore the rest of the world as well.

DON'T feed the troll.
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post #201 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 02:53 PM
 
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dokworm, I couldn't agree more. I don't see why people have such a big problem with understanding this, or why they want to dissassociate contrast ratio measurements from black level performance. I guess ignorance is bliss...
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post #202 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mp20748
Plus, it would make more sense if someone who wanted to know about these things would visit the forum that deals with these things...
Now, why wouldn't you want to talk about digitals all the time in the CRT forum...isn't that what a CRT forum is for? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mp20748
This digital in your face, when I'm trying to fix or understand what's wrong with my CRT, reminds me of POP UP ADS.
Best analogy I've seen for this. But, I think you do not appreciate the efforts the digital zealots go through to educate poor dumb you. I mean after all, how much can you know about PQ? I've never read a good review about MP modifications. :rolleyes:
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post #203 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamel407
What if someone took 2 converged Rubys over to Art's house?

I'd be interested in hearing the results of that one.

Nobody is interested?
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post #204 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:04 PM
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Art doesn't need to see a Ruby in his theatre to know he already has the best. :)

And black CR aside, it's not just a matter of what a particular looks like with "the best of the best DVDs", it's what it looks like with marginal material, which is where CRT really shines. ;)

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
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post #205 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamel407
Nobody is interested?
I would be interested in seeing one Ruby at Art's place, but one that doesn't have the problem with all video black that mine has at the moment. Also, I didn't find anybody in that area who was willing to take one there. I was thinking I would be willing to send mine to see that, but after getting it out of the box I decided I really didn't feel like sending it anywhere (other than maybe for repair given that some of its behaviour indicates a problem). Maybe somebody in that area would be interested in taking one there, if Art wanted to see that. I'm confident that the on/off CR and absolute blacks wouldn't be as good as he would want though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
And black CR aside, it's not just a matter of what a particular looks like with "the best of the best DVDs", it's what it looks like with marginal material, which is where CRT really shines. ;)
Each person has to decide what is important to them. More than one person here has pretty much said that they are done with DVDs and when HD-DVD and/or BluRay get here I think a lot more people will feel that way. I know that Art isn't happy with DVDs on his system after watching HD on there.

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post #206 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2
I would be interested in seeing one Ruby at Art's place, but one that doesn't have the problem with all video black that mine has at the moment. Also, I didn't find anybody in that area who was willing to take one there. I was thinking I would be willing to send mine to see that, but after getting it out of the box I decided I really didn't feel like sending it anywhere (other than maybe for repair given that some of its behaviour indicates a problem). Maybe somebody in that area would be interested in taking one there, if Art wanted to see that. I'm confident that the on/off CR and absolute blacks wouldn't be as good as he would want though.

I believe Art has already seen the Ruby, and he is impressed with it as a digital. But I believe he mentioned Digital still has a ways to go before he would even consider the move.

I was thinking this would be more for the benefit of the Ruby owner to see a great pair of CRTs in action.

It would be comparable.

Sony Ruby $10000
Sony G90 $10000
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post #207 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamel407
I believe Art has already seen the Ruby, and he is impressed with it as a digital. But I believe he mentioned Digital still has a ways to go before he would even consider the move.

I was thinking this would be more for the benefit of the Ruby owner to see a great pair of CRTs in action.

It would be comparable.

Sony Ruby $10000
Sony G90 $10000
At CEDIA he saw the Ruby in a room with some lights and preferred the 3 chip DLP there to the Ruby by a lot (with all the caveats about show conditions).

Not sure how you came up with your price comparison. Have you seen an MSRP of $10k for a G90 anywhere? $10k is the MSRP of the Ruby, not the street price. Ruby's can be ordered for under $8k with warranty and reportedly delivered within the next month or so (supplies are just coming in).

Also, that price doesn't include any scaler (the Ruby has an internal one, but an external one could be ordered) or the cost of stacking. You can ask Art, but I'm sure that stacking 2 G90s wasn't cheap. Stacking two new G90s (or even used with new tubes) with warranties probably wouldn't be much under $30k installed today.

--Darin

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post #208 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamel407
What if someone took 2 converged Rubys over to Art's house?
I'd be interested in hearing the results of that one.
The only way to do it would be to try a seamless side-by-side... barco.com has several good white papers about the problems of trying to stack or blend digital projectors...
(dark_gray) + (dark_gray) = (light_gray)

Plus, it removes a lot of the simplicity advantage of digital... instead of plug and play with a quick twist of a lens ring for focus, now the owner would have to contend with splitting the source signal and converging the dual images. And instead of $10,000 now you have $20K... and twice as many bulbs to buy :eek:. Hopefully they blow at the exact same time... you couldn't blend a 300 hr bulb with a brand new one.


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post #209 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
The only way to do it would be to try a seamless side-by-side... barco.com has several good white papers about the problems of trying to stack or blend digital projectors...
(dark_gray) + (dark_gray) = (light_gray)
I don't think you could do a side-by-side with Rubys. It just wouldn't work. I think on top of each other is the only way that has any real chance of working and then it is just how well they could be converged. Then the "(dark_gray) + (dark_gray) = (light_gray)" doesn't matter because it is about CR (images can always be darkened across the range). I talked to the Sony guy who setup the Ruby at CEDIA and he does stacks for shows, but wasn't sure if they could be converged close enough for a home theater user to be happy with that. The main reason for stacking in this case is light output and a new Ruby would have close enough to the same light output as Art's 2 G90s that I think it would be interesting to see one Ruby against the 2 G90s on the screen he is using (since I don't think his screen would be a bad choice for the Ruby in a comparison like some screens people have chosen specifically for their CRTs).

--Darin

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post #210 of 340 Old 12-15-2005, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
(dark_gray) + (dark_gray) = (light_gray)
You got it all wrong Clarence, it's Absolute Gray.


Yo Darin, can we have our forum back..:D

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