Ruby: CRT Challenger? (merged threads) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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If a new Ruby can be had for 8000-8500$, can really the prices of good 9 inch CRT stay still or will they drop now? Right now, a 9500LC ultra/G90 with new tubes are around 10-11K$ and that's a lot more than the Ruby.


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post #2 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 08:07 PM
 
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I think economics makes this answer fairly obvious?
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post #3 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I think so. But I have not seen anything about sellers dropping the prices yet.
Do you think we will see drops to same level as a Ruby (8K$) or even lower?


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post #4 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 08:21 PM
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Well prices often are "stickey" for some period of time after an economic change has occured. Sellers of any product do not want to drop their prices and will try to keep them at old levels for some period of time. So I wouldn't expect an instant drop, even if one does occur. I think you will first see the drop in 9" units that need work.

To me the long term trend of CRT prices is for them to drop. However, whether that occurs today, next week, next year or next decade is anyone's guess. I have taken a wait and see approach. I have a decent 8" and would like to upgrade to a 9" but I see no hurry to run out and buy one because I am pretty sure prices aren't going up (even if they aren't dropping). Since less than 15% of what I watch is HDTV I don't really "need" a 9" at this point.
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post #5 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 08:26 PM
 
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Well, the ruby hasn't really "arrived" yet either. I don't think you're going to see 9-inchers plummet overnight in price by any means, CRTs have been coming down in price fairly steadily but slowly for a while now. It's hard to predict how "big" the Ruby will be. I actually don't think it will be as "big" a breakthrough in terms of numbers as it may seem.

Despite my expectation that it's a pretty revolutionary product(we'll see when it gets some good thorough comparisons by trusted eyes, hopefully my own included), I think overall I'm fairly pessimistic about how "picky" people are, or maybe I can just be extreme, I don't know. I mean, DLPs have been "good enough" for big spenders and such for quite a while now, but I wouldn't agree that much. I mean, a lot of "picky" eyes have already gone digital to what I view as maybe not quite as good displays in some cases, so I don't think you're going to have some magic threshold where every CRTer or buyer will suddenly look at the Ruby and go "eureka!" I mean, the qualia 004 was a kind of "eureka!" for me among digital projectors, but it was a great deal more expensive. I think this will be another significant step, but the ruby isn't going to be trade-off free. I don't expect this to be like the Brightside where everyone in the room just goes "OMG, this is exponentially better than anything I've ever seen in my life before." It's still going to be "wow, this is pretty incredible, this is even closer to a 9-inch CRT" or "I might finally consider this instead of a CRT," but I don't think you're going to see everyone drop their panties and run out and buy a Ruby. I think CRT prices are fairly stable because they are fringe products in a sense, so the fast swings of new products in the digital world aren't going to have immediate and huge effects on CRT pricing, IMO.

That being said, I'm waiting for the day when I can pick up a 909 or G90 for a few hundred bucks :D
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post #6 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 09:34 PM
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Mattias,
Where are you getting your numbers? I think I have seen most 9500's in the $5k to $8k range. I have seen you asking a lot of questions. Are you waiting for the market to break or are you looking at digitals as well?

To add, the prices of 9"s will drop when the supply exceeds demand from those owners switching to digitals. I think the Ruby will have an effect on CRTs, but the 1080p DLPs at $6k(if the rumors are correct) will have a bigger effect. One thing that I can definitely see in the next year is ACs becoming close to disposable.

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post #7 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 09:41 PM
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I would not be surprised to see excellent condition $5k G90s or less over the next 18 months which is a good thing. There after I see them settleling in around $2k over the next 24-36 months. That includes new units.

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post #8 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 10:25 PM
 
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Quote:
One thing that I can definitely see in the next year is ACs becoming close to disposable.
Partially my fault! I'm sorry! :(

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post #9 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 10:25 PM
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I think it will be much easier to judge the effect of the Ruby's price on 9" CRTs for people around here once there are more comparisons. Pretty much what Chris said. I don't put too much stock in what people see at stores with digitals just as I wouldn't with CRTs given how much worse many store setups are than good home setups. I know that in Seattle some of us will be comparing a Ruby to a G70 after I get one and people will be welcome to come see the Ruby in its home environment on a 10' wide High Power in a mostly black velvet room (something that isn't likely to be possible at someone else's house). I don't know of anybody with a G90 locally, but do know of somebody with a 9501LC (or one very close in model number). Just not sure if that person is the type who would want to do a comparison.

But at under $8k I do think the Ruby pricing will have an effect on many projector prices. Digital and CRT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kipp Jones
I would not be surprised to see excellent condition $5k G90s or less over the next 18 months which is a good thing. There after I see them settleling in around $2k over the next 24-36 months. That includes new units.
That sure wouldn't make FHV very happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
One thing that I can definitely see in the next year is ACs becoming close to disposable.
I still would like to do a comparison of my H79 with an AC unit setup well in a good room near Seattle. Some of us did a comparison with a Sony D50 in a somewhat light room down in Oregon last night, but it really wasn't a fair test. The D50 wasn't setup well, didn't have a good scaler, and they were far enough apart in performance (with the H79 clearly preferred in this setup other than a couple of people seeing rainbows on an intro screen) that I don't think it told me much about how a good AC unit would compare. I think the consensus of the people there (including the D50 owner) was that the blacks were significantly better on the H79 overall (the test material was the beginning of the latest "Star Wars" DVD) even given the fairly light colored room and I would like to see how a non-LC in a good room would compare. Or at least a good AC 8" in a medium room.

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post #10 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 11:10 PM
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It's interesting how the market works.

6 years ago when I started, everyone wanted me to sell them digital sets, both sports bars and home consumers. 'We don't want any of those dim crappy looking CRTs" was the typical customer approach.

My answer back then was 'come over and see an NEC PG with a DVDO Vi doubler, and if you still want a digital, feel free to buy one.". I didn't lose many sales.

Nowadays, I get the opposite: "I want to have a CRT, those crappy digitals that break/burn out bulbs/have a poor pix don't cut it for me".

I agree with the bulb costs and short lived chassis, but shop carefully and some of the higher end digitals don't look that bad. (oops, was that my outloud voice??).

HOwever, a lot of consumers now on their 2nd or 3rd digital projector and who knows how many bulbs are still switching over/back to CRT due to the PQ and long life of the tubes and chassis.

This fall, sales have been a bit slower than normal, but in the last two weeks it's picked right up. I'd say most sales are EM focusing sets, but it's surprising (maybe not) how many people are still gettting their feet wet and will go for a <$1K ES focusing set.. and love the results/

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post #11 of 340 Old 12-11-2005, 11:19 PM
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Well have you guys considered that until prices for new OEM tubes come down in price....highly doubtful....9" sets with new tubes cannot really come down in price...can they?

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post #12 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 02:17 AM
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If a 'brightside' style projector came out for 10K or less, then I would expect CRTs (and every other projector technology actually) plummet fairly quickly.
The Ruby looks very promising, but most G90s or CRTs in that ilk are in expensive home theatres that are well setup and calibrated, and there wouldn't be a huge impetus for those people to change over to the ruby.
You would need quite a few of these people to go the ruby route and put their crts into the market to see much of a shift - otherwise supply doesn't increas much, and if you are shopping at the higher price bracket anyway, having a crt intalled and fitted into your theatre isn't the drama that it is for people with less cash to spend that might balk at getting all the intall done etc.
So if I had high bucks in my pocket and had to make a choice, I'm not sure which way I'd go, I like the idea of tubes that don't need to be changed for a long time and don't degrade very quickly in image quality, but the smaller size, digital inputs and HDTV performance of the ruby would be very attractive.
So it is not like an immediate, "Mate, I gotta have one of those, they are incredible", it is more, Hmmm, now I have another option I have to consider.

So I think it will have a small impact, but if a ruby style PJ hit the 3-4K mark, then it would bite a lot more.

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post #13 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 03:13 AM
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I have a feeling that the lesser known 9" units in the US, will drop a bit in value. But units like the 9500LC and G90 will probably not drop much at all, over the next 12 months. The reason being, is the G90 is considered to be the definition of quality video by most people. And the 9500LC is "right there" with the G90, but due to it being so widely available in the US, it's price isn't quite as high as a G90. This is good for the consumer though, as parts are readily available.
Guys like etechvideo.com and Hi-Rez, who offer high-performance mods for the 9500LC will probably start doing pretty well. New projectors like the Ruby will bring more people into the projector market and those newbies who do their research and are willing to live with larger units, will probably start looking at CRT's at some point. Then of course, get the hi-performance upgrade bug. Much like computers, CRT projectors can be endlessly upgraded in one way or another. I think I have a list of 15 different things I'd like to do to mine, at some point or another. And so far, most upgrades available are the easy and obvious stuff. I'm not sure that the full potential of CRT's has yet been realized, despite how long this technology has been around. I figure most think it's easier to blame downpoints on the installer/calibrator not doing his job properly, rather than spend the time to figure out how to make this great technology even greater.

But the 1292, 1209 and 4600 units may see dropping prices a bit, soon enough. I think in the UK, it will be different though, at least for the 1209 where it's more widely available.

This is just my personal opinion. I don't have any facts to base it on. Just gut feeling.

Put it like this... I could easily swap my 9500 for a Ruby. But I'm not going to. Now if I had an 8" AC instead of a 9" LC... then I might reconsider. Well, if the Ruby were cheaper by a couple thousand anyway. But even at $6k-$9K, I would go with a good working 9" CRT. I'm just too demanding of video quality to go with anything less. And I'm the type who is willing to suffer through a darker home theater to get that video quality. Someday soon, I'll get a super-bright digital for party's, but in the end, the CRT will always be what I look to, for overall video quality.

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post #14 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 05:50 AM
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There's no question that the Ruby - and by extension that it is a reasonably priced 1080P projector, will have a downward pressure on CRT prices..

This past week I saw the Ruby twice - I posted my impressions in this thread at the bottom of page 5..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&page=5&pp=30

Trust me, I'm as anal and nitpicky about both audio and video as anyone here, but I can say confidently that a Ruby along with the trusty Stewart 130 screen, I would be equally satisfied overall, as I am now..

The Ruby has motivated me to get my 1292 professionally calibrated..I have been sitting for 15 months now, waiting for Mike Parker to fix the streaking first..I don't want to wait anymore..as much as I want the streaking fixed, it bothers me knowing that it isn't the best that it can be..

I can't see myself going after a better 9" CRT either - the main reason is the fear of it failing and having to ship it off to the US someplace and god knows how long I would be without it..I own 2 1292's because of this, but have no desire to buy a spare G90..

As the price of 1080P digitals continue to fall, it will get harder to justify sticking with a CRT..

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post #15 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 05:54 AM
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CRT FP's are priced amazingly low already.

I think there are maybe 3 forum members who have a RUBY currently.

A good pj with new tubes has a value at least of it's tubes alone.

So,.. cheap G90's with new tubes is likely not gonna happen. Not to mention the G90 is scarce and it's being snapped up by people who know what it's really worth.

-B
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post #16 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 06:57 AM
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I think the only place that the ruby has affected prices is here! How can a product that no one knows about affect prices. I'm in one of the largest metropolitan areasin the country and it doesnt exist here.

No price drop yet...but i'm waiting

It's raining G90's.....Hallelujah!!!!

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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post #17 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
Mattias,
Where are you getting your numbers? I think I have seen most 9500's in the $5k to $8k range. I have seen you asking a lot of questions. Are you waiting for the market to break or are you looking at digitals as well?

To add, the prices of 9"s will drop when the supply exceeds demand from those owners switching to digitals. I think the Ruby will have an effect on CRTs, but the 1080p DLPs at $6k(if the rumors are correct) will have a bigger effect. One thing that I can definitely see in the next year is ACs becoming close to disposable.

Ericglo

Well, if you can find me a 9500LC ultra with new tubes and not 100 000 hours on the chassi, let med know.
Yes, I'm in the market for a projector. And my limit is around 10-12K$. So I have narrowed it down to G90, Ruby and Barco cine 9/909/Runco DTV-1200. I open minded about what to get. I have seen the ruby for myself, but ony with blue-ray demo HD stuff. I have no G90/cine 9 around me but I have seen a 9500LC.

So I'm waiting for the first good test between the Ruby and G90. My main concern with the Ruby is brighness compression and the "lack" of black level.

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post #18 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 07:21 AM
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Guys!

Prices of replacement tubes will certainly dictate pricing of refurbished machines, we cannot give stuff away.......

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post #19 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie
But even at $6k-$9K, I would go with a good working 9" CRT. I'm just too demanding of video quality to go with anything less. And I'm the type who is willing to suffer through a darker home theater to get that video quality. Someday soon, I'll get a super-bright digital for party's, but in the end, the CRT will always be what I look to, for overall video quality.
I'm curious. Since you mentioned this video quality so many times, how would you run HD-DVD or BluRay with a G90 even if there are no issues getting the signal. Would you go with 1080p48 and live with flicker for some (maybe you, maybe not)? Or how about 1080p60 with judder? 1080p72 with the picture going soft? Downscale to something less than 1080p? I will be trying 1080p48 with the Ruby and if it works that is probably what I will go with considering that digitals like this don't flicker at 48Hz (since they put the whole image up at once).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton
Not to mention the G90 is scarce and it's being snapped up by people who know what it's really worth.
According to what I've read around here it looks like Sony may have made 900 or 1000 G90s and about 100 of them still haven't been sold to end users. I believe that FHV still has quite a stash and someday they are going to have to lower their prices if they want to move them.

--Darin

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post #20 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 08:07 AM
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Price is dependent on demand. Demand depends on whether you live in your mom's basement or if you have a girlfriend.

For some it doesn't matter which is better. They want the CRT ;)
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post #21 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg
Price is dependent on demand. Demand depends on whether you live in your mom's basement or if you have a girlfriend.
For some it doesn't matter which is better. They want the CRT ;)
is this your idea of contributing to a thread? Pretty childish to hurl personal insults at people you don't even know.



On a different note, I'm glad to see the FPD camp has finally produced something with actual CR, hopefully it lives up to the hype. I have been fooled too many times so far to get very excited (HD2+, Qualia, HS51, etc.) but I will definitely start looking for one to preview locally.

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post #22 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 08:53 AM
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Once ruby is widely available (perhaps in mid year) it will make a shift in the market. Those of us who already have a 9" and some 8" crt's and ready to move will probably buy the Sony and then there would be some influx of used 9" that are fairly used make it into the market. This might make a change in prices. But I think the Sony will have much more impact on the prices of higher end digital units such as those offered as 3 chippers or even single panel that are priced near the Sony and higher. In long run, I agree all prices will drop as the higher supply/availability of new & more advanced digital PJ's become a norm. So I wouldn't see any substantial price drop in nice high end including 9" crt's now. Having said that there might be a stagnation in the market for more expensive CRT's soon.

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post #23 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 09:33 AM
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Well it's after breakfast now and my mom has made my bed and I am allowed some computer time . MOM is a lot more lenient now that I have a CRT projector and she can now watch without puking or seeing rainbows . (And her glaucoma condition has eased up since she has stopped watching movies through a screen door) .
My mom took some advice from someone that we might like a NEW and IMPROVED H50 or 51 this year .

When we went to look at this projector Mom and I thought that there must be something wrong because it was obvious to see serious screen door at OVER twice the screen width. There is no way that projector is even watchable under 1.8 times the screen distance let alone enjoyable .

My mom consoled me though and explained to me that some of the slight halos around bright objects I see in my basement theater ( that is 100% black fabric )are natural !! she then explained to me if I went out side and looked around at night I could see the same thing when I looked at streetlights and cars headlights . When MOM and I went spelunking we noticed the same halos that we see on OUR crt projector when people are in dark caves with their lights on .





WE had a harder time duplicating some of the new digital projectors anomalies in real life situations though, can someone help me out ?

Well I have to go mom's calling


PS
I was meaning to ask Darin MY mom and I are going to go to an audio show this weekend and she is doing a surprise guest speech ,she is going to show some new specs on solid state equipment to some misinformed tube equipment enthusiasts. It's their show but she feels compelled to let them know the truth anyway !!


Darin if you can't make it this weekend we will be down at an huge 60's car rally , you might like to attend there as well !! . MY mom is doing a demonstration on the new triptronic transmissions . Mom is a bit funny that way she doesn't understand why all those people drive that old OUT DATED junk.


Bruce
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post #24 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2

According to what I've read around here it looks like Sony may have made 900 or 1000 G90s and about 100 of them still haven't been sold to end users. I believe that FHV still has quite a stash and someday they are going to have to lower their prices if they want to move them.

--Darin
I hope the folks at FHV know what they are doing, for their sake, if nothing else. It is always painfully funny to watch B&M stores hang onto the last generation of computer, and then be forced to sell it for much less than they could have sold it, had they only seen the writing on the wall (or had more freedom from management - who knows.) Myself, I watched and waited for a new P4 with HT - the store refused to mark it down, and when they finally did, to half of original price, the thing was so old that it wasn't a good deal, even at half price. Yet I would have gladly snapped it up for a few more dollars, a couple monthes earlier.

Obviously CRTs have a longer price/value cylce than computers, but there will be some tough decisions made within the next year. - after all, if there are only 1000 G90s on the earth, the rest of us have to have something - I'm not going to get into a bidding war over the last G90 on earth - not when the latest Sony Zirconia will do 2160p at 2000 lumens for 800 bucks MSRP :D

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post #25 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 10:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
Well it's after breakfast now and my mom has made my bed and I am allowed some computer time . MOM is a lot more lenient now that I have a CRT projector and she can now watch without puking or seeing rainbows . (And her glaucoma condition has eased up since she has stopped watching movies through a screen door) .
My mom took some advice from a well spoken intelligent person that we might like a NEW and IMPROVED H50 or 51 this year .

When we went to look at this projector Mom and I thought that there must be something wrong because it was obvious to see serious screen door at OVER twice the screen width. I thought to myself that either the person recommending this projector has poor vision or has lived with this screen door phenomenon for a while, is used to it or is simply biased . There is no way that projector is even watchable under 1.8 times the screen distance let alone enjoyable .

My mom consoled me though and explained to me that some of the slight halos around bright objects I see in my basement theater ( that is 100% black fabric )are natural !! she then explained to me if I went out side and looked around at night I could see the same thing when I looked at streetlights and cars headlights . When MOM and I went spelunking we noticed the same halos that we see on OUR crt projector when people are in dark caves with their lights on .





WE had a harder time duplicating some of the new digital projectors anomalies in real life situations though, can someone help me out ?

Well I have to go mom's calling


PS
I was meaning to ask Darin MY mom and I are going to go to an audio show this weekend and she is doing a surprise guest speech ,she is going to show some new specs on solid state equipment to some misinformed tube equipment enthusiasts. It's their show but she feels compelled to let them know the truth anyway !!


Darin if you can't make it this weekend we will be down at an huge 60's car rally , you might like to attend there as well !! . MY mom is doing a demonstration on the new triptronic transmissions . Mom is a bit funny that way she doesn't understand why all those people drive that old OUT DATED junk.


Bruce

I don't get it.... (?)
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post #26 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
According to what I've read around here it looks like Sony may have made 900 or 1000 G90s and about 100 of them still haven't been sold to end users. I believe that FHV still has quite a stash and someday they are going to have to lower their prices if they want to move them.

--Darin
From what i've heard from my contact @ FHV, they're not planning on lowering the G90 price. They are still doing the business that they planned on w/ their CRT's.

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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post #27 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 10:12 AM
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Z neither do I now that I re read it :) I was just quickly responding to trygs mom post and using tube equip and vintage cars as a crt analogy/ metaphor for Darin :)

Just having some fun!! I was thinking of coming back and defending my money /girlfriend / mom's basement status to tryg . I thought that getting bent out of shape and defensive might make me look like I had some personal issues other than owning a CRT :).

Darin I am just as CONCERNED about sony and all the Qualia's, I wonder if the ruby demand is so high yet that they are robbing parts from the unsold Qualia's ? :)

Bruce

PS to try to get back on topic I think the ruby is or will have more effect on digitals than crt , at least initially .
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post #28 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 10:52 AM
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I saw the same Ruby John saw a few hours (I would guess) before he did and agree with him with two exceptions - the compression artifact was very, very apparent to me and a real deal killer. This just jumped out at me and slapped me around. My brother was with me and didn't see it at all - man I must be fussy, however, I think Greg Rogers is right on the money with this problem (looked like glaring on a bright part of the image blowing out detail). Sony needs to address this issue right now!

The other issue was black level. The Ruby can't do a fade to black much less hold it from what I saw. The Ruby is fine for most scenes, but throw something tough at it like Chapter 11 (?) in Finding Nemo and some other fade to black scenes and it has the same problems as other digitals. A projector can either do a fade to black or it can't, there's no in between! If a fade to black isn't your cup of tea then who cares and the Ruby will satisfy. Of course CRTs can't fade to complete black if properly calibrated, unless you employ "gamma correction" and this takes a CRT into another league while digital struggles to play catch up.

All in all the Ruby throws a glorious image, but I was disappointed for the reasons mentioned above. John saw it in the same setting and loved it. Go figure! There's no question the room it was shown in was first rate.

So, am I going to sell my 9" CRT. Sure if you want to pay me considerably more than I paid. I think I am going to go and give it a hug right now - man, I love this thing. It can still go places where digital can't.

Cheers,

Grant

P.S. After seeing the Ruby I think CRT prices might actually increase. The Ruby is the best thing that's happened to CRT in some time. (just kidding, but I thought this might annoy Darin and as my mother-in-law says - I am a sh*t disturber).
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post #29 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 11:09 AM
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hey,

Tryg was right on the money here though...

Quote "For some it doesn't matter which is better. They want the CRT"

That's me all over. I love the image from a CRT FP, it's the cat's pajamas and it's all that I'm looking for. I don't really care if something "Better" comes along. (Well, I guess that's not entirely true as I hope there is good stuff available when my kids build media room of thier own someday.)

It's quite like classic cars, I think. I'm sure the new automobiles are better in just about every way but some people are still enthusiatic about older cars that don't even meet many of todays safety requirements. Some of the older, less nimble, less safe, and less effiecient cars happen to be funner to drive.

Make mine CRT.

-B
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post #30 of 340 Old 12-12-2005, 11:46 AM
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Brian i think you're on the money.

I like what i like you may differ.

So here are my preferences, for the record.

Coke vs Pepsi : Pepsi, coke burns my nose... no pun intended.

Foreign vs Domestic: Foreign, i drive a honda cause, i was able to dump my pos from ford.

Paper vs Plastic: Paper, I love the planet. :)

Pam Vs Carmen: Pam, although how could you lose either way.

North vs South: North, although w/ the weather being as it is, im contemplating secession.

CRT vs digital: CRT, it just looks better to me! :D

I cried because i had no G90.... til i met a man who had only Digital.
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