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Old 10-05-2005, 07:05 AM
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This is not a digital vs. CRT discussion that raster would like everyone to believe. Its about whether someone should consider spending up to $10K on the best that digital can offer and NOT consider spending up to $10K on a G90. But, I may need to put this thread into proper context:

Let's presume the buyer is an upgrader and already has a CRT of the 7" variety.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 10-05-2005, 07:14 AM
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You (and your other prolific legacy accounts) have been in this forum longer than 95% of us. CRT vs d!%!#@| is a personal choice. You've seen enough CRT and d!%!#@| projectors to know what to look for. And you're close enough to Terry to know what one properly set up can provide.

But I also recall that you've strugged with setting up a projector and other components of your HT. So maybe one of the newer d!%!#@|$ is a better choice for you. You've seen the pros and cons and bashings for years. I really doubt that you'll get too much new content by trolling up a new thread.

You've already scoffed the constructive feedback provided here... make your own choice. It won't take much to beat a D50... it certainly won't take a $10K flashlight or a G90.
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Old 10-05-2005, 07:24 AM
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Got the Fender Tribute on the DVR. Who was that that did "Red House"? That was awesome. I haven't heard anyone do it that good since Jimmy. It almost brought me to tears.

Erik

RX-Z9 to KHORNS/SVS & FULL HERITAGE 8.3 HT Setup

Junk is something you've kept for years and throw away three weeks before you need it
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Old 10-05-2005, 08:06 AM
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The thread is about spending up to $10K on a digital vs. spending up to $10K on a G90. This is not about 'crt vs. Lets keep crt verses digital out of this thread.
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Old 10-05-2005, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFerret
Why are you taking this personally? I played the Devil's Advocate. If the reasons you offered, which I asked for, are not made to be countered in a calm, logical discussion then I am sorry you posted at all. If you would like I'll go delete my response and leave it at that.

Again, sorry that I did not notice you were not allowing your post to be open for discussion. :eek:
Sure, but your post was more retort than responce and seemed argumentative not constructive. I listed some reasons why a digital should be considered, not reasons why the G90 shouldn't be. If I must I will go over your points:


- Needs a warranty

Seems pretty obvious that it is better to have a warranty than not. Does a G90 need a warranty? I suppose that would depend on the G90 wouldn't it? Since it is in the realm of possibilities that a G90 may fail, then yes, a warranty would be a good thing.

- Complex to use

Compared the the digital yes. That is our benchmark in this discussion isn't it? Lets see, for the G90 you will need in the very least a good scaler (adding thousands to the cost as well). Then to set it up you may have to toe-in tubes, adjust magnets, do hours of electronic focus, convergance etc... Of course, compared to the Space Shuttle, the G90 isn't complex to use.

- Is dim, even compared to a 500-hour G90 vs. Ruby condition

I wouldn't and didn't say the G90 is dim. Heck my 1292 is considered dim by the unknowing and it is fine for me. Even without my Torus I cam make it plenty bright without blooming on a 110" wide unity gain screen. I can make it look plasma like if I push it into blooming. I know the G90 will do better.

- The digital input card is urban legend and not a realty

Yeah, didn't you see that episode of Mythbusters? :rolleyes:

- Too loud

That's pretty subjective isn't it? To some any discernable noise is to much. The Ruby from what I hear (pun not intended) is pretty much quiet. I don't remember ever hearing that the G90 is as well.

- Has convergence issues

Well, you do have to converge it. If you aren't experienced and knowledgeable there is a fair probability your setup may make convergance drift. It's a given that the digital won't drift.

James

There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity. You can't take the sky from me.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:02 AM
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Im curious which Optoma are you going to compare the G70 with? H78 or 79?
Does it have the newest Dark Chip 3 [DC3] chipset?

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
Im curious which Optoma are you going to compare the G70 with? H78 or 79?
Does it have the newest Dark Chip 3 [DC3] chipset?

-Rajiv
I'll find out tonight and post. I think the panasonic is the AE900 if I'm not mistaken.....

Cliff
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:07 AM
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More retort? I placed myself in the shoes of someone that doesn't like CRTs, while playing the devli's advocate. My response was aimed at you, personally, but how someone in another forum might respond.

If I placed myself in the shoes of the buyer and wasn't coming from a 7" CRT then I would have probably be considering that $10K digital projector. But, because I come from a 7" CRT I have to wonder AND ask myself if I had all my marbles for not even considering a G90 for that kind of money.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
I promise Darin to try REALLY hard not to BASH the digitals..... :eek: :D :eek: :D
I know you have the :Ds, but I just wanted to say that I have no problem with you bashing them, just as long as they are valid things and not just because little effort was made to set them up correctly for your tastes, or something like that. I think you should call it just like you see it and tell us things you like and don't like about them. None of these is perfect. But some things are already known. Like if somebody sat at 1.2x the screen width the whole time and dismissed the Optoma because that was too close for it, that wouldn't really be providing much useful information.

Have fun.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
I'll find out tonight and post. I think the panasonic is the AE900 if I'm not mistaken.....

Cliff
It's only a AE900 if he just got it. I'm guessing it is a 700. A good scene for one of these is any dark scene with bright spots. The panel CR is pretty low on these and it has to use the dynamic iris too much. The bright spots will be brighter on the G70.

Dave
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:00 PM
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The Feder event was good, other than the fact the Strat's Suck big time

Gary Moore(a very well known Irish Blues man) played "Red House", oh and Jimi Sucks :), I will give him credit for "Red House" though, a great Song it is

Erik Search for Yngwie Malmsteens's "Red House" from the G3 concert CD, it is even better

I recorded the whole damn thing, this one is a real keeper, Gilmour is so good it isn't even funny

-Gary
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I know you have the :Ds, but I just wanted to say that I have no problem with you bashing them, just as long as they are valid things and not just because little effort was made to set them up correctly for your tastes, or something like that. I think you should call it just like you see it and tell us things you like and don't like about them. None of these is perfect. But some things are already known. Like if somebody sat at 1.2x the screen width the whole time and dismissed the Optoma because that was too close for it, that wouldn't really be providing much useful information.

Have fun.

--Darin
I do intend to spend some time setting up with the guys and yes I will be objective.

One thing that will be nice is they are brand new units.....

Cliff
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
It's only a AE900 if he just got it. I'm guessing it is a 700. A good scene for one of these is any dark scene with bright spots. The panel CR is pretty low on these and it has to use the dynamic iris too much. The bright spots will be brighter on the G70.

Dave
Wow, that's interesting. The G70 will actually be brighter?????

Cliff
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
Wow, that's interesting. The G70 will actually be brighter?????

Cliff
Only in this instance. Remember, a CRTs light output per "pixel" is not uniform like a digital. On a CRT, a 10% white window is way brighter than a a 100% field. The Panny has very poor panel CR, so it has to work the heck out of its dynamic iris. Heck, the AE700 needed the dynamic Iris just to get 1700:1 on/off CR! So, on a dark scene, it has to crank the iris way down and change the gamma to get good shadow detail. The by product of this that a small white patch will not be that bright because the iris is choking it down.

The thing that will blow you away is if it is a Panny 700 or 900, it will have less SDE than the optoma! An LCD with less SDE than a DLP! This is because the lens splits and blurs the pixels. You will actually be able to watch the panny from about 1.5x screen width back. You won't be able to watch the Optoma from there. Other interesting thing that will bug the crap out of you on the panny is going to be the blue blacks. Put in a fade to black scene and notice how it is a fade to blue. Also, you'll notice vertical banding on some scenes with uniform color on the Panny (like a sky shot).

But, to be fair, you can pick up a used 700 from an individual for about $1500--or about the price of a M8500 or 808/1208 from an individual (gee, which is better ;) ). Heck, a new 900 is only going to cost you $2300. Certainly, the G70 will go for more than that and there is a very good reason. Now, if the Optoma is an H79 or H78DC3, that is a pretty good comparison of what someone can get for their money.

Dave
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
On a CRT, a 10% white window is way brighter than a a 100% field.
We've been over this before, but I don't believe this is true. Cliff had his CRT setup by a professional. If it was setup by somebody who didn't know what they were doing or wanted to burn his tubes up quickly then I think your statement would be correct, but I would bet that this wouldn't be correct on his calibrated G70. I measured a well setup G70 and the difference between a 3% white and full screen white was not that big. This was with measurements, not somebody guessing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Other interesting thing that will bug the crap out of you on the panny is going to be the blue blacks. Put in a fade to black scene and notice how it is a fade to blue.
How confident are you in these statements of "fact"? Have you seen an AE900?

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:55 PM
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my 808s vs HS51 comparison showed (with both calibrated properly) that the Barco was a little brighter than the HS51, this was after adding the ND filter to the HS51 that Darin loaned me and I have still failed to send back to him :( :( , Sorry Darin!!

This 1.5x crap is total bull, anyone with a very good eye (and maybe a little on the picky side) will be able to notice screen door on 720p units from 3x back, I sure could

-Gary
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
This 1.5x crap is total bull, anyone with a very good eye (and maybe a little on the picky side) will be able to notice screen door on 720p units from 3x back, I sure could
I'm still confused about this post (with main points bolded) at the point you were considering keeping the HS51.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
I just tried the component input on my HS51, now I am begininng to think that the HDMI input is bad also

up until today I have not tested anything but HDMI

The component input of the HS51 when comparing my JVD 5u D-VHS deck is no contest, the 1080i image from my "Goldeneye" D-VHS tape is gorgeous and looks much much better using the component input over the HDMI on the 5u

I showed my brother and he was like what do you do to the unit??
adding the ND filter and the Color filter along with trying component on the HS51 has shed a whole new light on this PJ

there is something wrong with the HDMI input on the HS51, it has really really bad screen door, comparing it to the component output on all my sources including:

NeuNeo 2081
Dish network 942 pvr
jvd 5u D-VHS

yields a much much smoother image, with alot less digital artifacts including pixelization and SDE

I am floored by some of the images I am getting now via the Component input, all my sources look much better

the HDMI input has a horrible scaled look and is hugely overscanned, the VGA and component inputs are nice indeed

I also tried a new experiment and got some damn fine dvd playback

I set my NeuNeo to 720p and component out, hooked up my Petr transcoder and input into the VGA input on the HS51, now this is good dvd playback

with 720p into the VGA(the only way to get 1:1 with the HS51), the internal scaling is turned off 100%, what results is a much much better image, the internal scaling is decent at best, it does seem to do pretty good with 1080 > 720p conversion though

the DVD playback is fluid and not digital looking but the very least, the difference with the internal scaling on and off is amazing

bottom line is that I cannot get over how the HDMI input compared to the component input, it is like changing from a LCD pc monitor to a great CRT pc monitor, the image quality is great


I am now liking the HS51 alot better, after a week of tweaking, lords knows how much better it could get because my unit is a lemon with:

A shot HDMI input, bright blue dust blobs, horrible convergence and a serious black level gamma issue of some sort
So, if you could see SDE from 3x back with the component input, how far back could you see it with the HDMI input that you indicated had a lot more SDE? Or is your 3x now only for the input you considered the worst? And if you could just see SDE at 3x with an HS51 then you shouldn't be able to see any on recent 720p DLP units that have much better fill factors than the HS51, at the same ratio.

You also indicated that your vision was 20/10, which would put your vision at 2x 20/20 and even much better than 20/15 if accurate.

I would personally be very surprised if you could see SDE on an AE900 at 2x. I don't think most people could come close to seeing any at 1x on that unit.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
How confident are you in these statements of "fact"? Have you seen an AE900?
If you read my earlier post, I'm assuming it is a 700 because to be a 900, he would have had to just get it. So, for a 700, I'm quite sure these are fact. The 900 seems to have some considerably different claims (e.g. 5500:1 on/off as opposed to 2000:1), so I have no idea all the problems they have fixed in the 900. But, the interesting point is that this points out one of the other downsides of these PJs. Someone buys a 700 6 months ago, gets sick of vertical banding and blue blacks and has to upgrade to a 900 now. What problems will this have that they will fix in one year in the 1100 (or whatever they call it)?

Dave
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:16 PM
 
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I love D2

it is -

don't confuse me with the "facts" I know what I know. :D
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
This 1.5x crap is total bull, anyone with a very good eye (and maybe a little on the picky side) will be able to notice screen door on 720p units from 3x back, I sure could
Gary, I think you misunderstood me. I'm the one that said 1.5x--and I'm the one that's hyper critical of digital artifacts! I hate SDE, rainbows, DLP fatigue, dithering artifacts, et al.

Trust me, I don't see how they can sell the HS51 with that SDE! I can't sit 2x from the HS51 and stand it. I can't sit 1.5x from the optoma and stand it. But, the Panny out of the box essentially has a lens like the aftermarket lenses Darin wanted you to try on the HS51. This lens basically splits each pixel and gap into 4 smaller pixels and gaps. So, you have a vertical "resolution" of 1440 which means the spaces between the pixels get smaller. Also, it adds a gaussian blur to these sub pixels to create a blur into the pixel gaps, thus reducing them further and attempting to get a smooth film-like picture like the CRT does naturally. You might see just a bit on all light colored scenes, but nothing near like what you saw with the HS51. All I'm saying is that in this application, this bit of optical path manipulation does work.

Bottom line: I still don't think the picture is good and there is no way I would want one, but trust me, you can sit way closer to the screen with a Panny than you ever could with the HS51.

Dave
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
If you read my earlier post, I'm assuming it is a 700 because to be a 900, he would have had to just get it.
Yep, you guessed that it was a 700, Cliff posted that they were new units, then you stated as a fact that the fade to black would be a fade to blue after indicating that it could be a 700 or 900:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
The thing that will blow you away is if it is a Panny 700 or 900, it will have less SDE than the optoma! An LCD with less SDE than a DLP! This is because the lens splits and blurs the pixels. You will actually be able to watch the panny from about 1.5x screen width back. You won't be able to watch the Optoma from there. Other interesting thing that will bug the crap out of you on the panny is going to be the blue blacks. Put in a fade to black scene and notice how it is a fade to blue.
Do you seriously not see the problem with stating something as a fact like this? I'm guessing you can go to that other site you like and make up anything you want without anybody pointing it out.

Also, even on the 700 a color filter can be used to address the overall color balance and I think this does address the skewed "blacks" on that one somewhat (although I haven't tried it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
But, the interesting point is that this points out one of the other downsides of these PJs. Someone buys a 700 6 months ago, gets sick of vertical banding and blue blacks and has to upgrade to a 900 now. What problems will this have that they will fix in one year in the 1100 (or whatever they call it)?
True. Pretty much nobody is working to address the issues with your CRT in a new model (other than one known company that has been looking for financing). You make it sound like it would be a bad thing if they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Photo
don't confuse me with the "facts" I know what I know.
Is that the best you can come up with? How about backing it up by pointing out even one fact I am wrong about here? As usually, I think you'll just go with stuff from people who own the same type of projector as you whether false or not.

--Darin

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Old 10-05-2005, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
So, if you could see SDE from 3x back with the component input, how far back could you see it with the HDMI input that you indicated had a lot more SDE? Or is your 3x now only for the input you considered the worst? And if you could just see SDE at 3x with an HS51 then you shouldn't be able to see any on recent 720p DLP units that have much better fill factors than the HS51, at the same ratio.
Can't believe I'm saying this to you, but come on, don't split hairs. Perhaps this is a bit of hyperbole. But, let's face it, the SDE on the HS51 is simply awful. Does it really matter if you see SDE from 2.25x or 3x on it--the bottom line is, most people want to sit closer than either of these--and you simply can't do it with that.

Dave
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Old 10-05-2005, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Yep, you guessed that it was a 700, Cliff posted that they were new units, then you stated as a fact that the fade to black would be a fade to blue after indicating that it could be a 700 or 900:
Sorry I didn't get exacting. This was just my stream of though. But, given that they were problems with the 700, I think he should look for them even if it is a 900.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Do you seriously not see the problem with stating something as a fact like this?
Like I said above, these are facts with the 700, perhaps fixed in the 900. But, if you want to see a chart of the blue black:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...05-part-1.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I'm guessing you can go to that other site you like and make up anything you want without anybody pointing it out.
Man, you are pretty touchy for me not adding an additional qualifier half way through a paragraph when going from general to specific. Sheesh!

But, I guess you are talking about Nich's site. Actually, if you go read it, you'll find that in the absense of digital zealotry, we pretty much have no need to talk about inferior technology. :D

Quote:
True. Pretty much nobody is working to address the issues with your CRT in a new model (other than one known company that has been looking for financing). You make it sound like it would be a bad thing if they were.
No, it wouldn't be a bad thing. But, the CRT technology is pretty mature so rapid changes and creating and fixing new problems every year is long gone. The comment was more about the maturity of the technology and the risk of riding the wave at that point. As I've said, the early adopters are paying for the development of the tech. They are willing to pay lots of money for items they know have flaws and will need replacing shortly. I just quetion the logic of jumping on that bandwagon before the maturity curve flattens out a little.

Quote:
I think you'll just go with stuff from people who own the same type of projector as you whether false or not.
Actually, mine is a 1208/2, Pete uses those lower bandwidth prettier 808 machines. :)

Dave
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:26 PM
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I figured I would jump in here and make a few comments. I am the poster of the original thread that spawned this one. I currently own a Sony VPH-D50Q. It has been quite good for me but now I also have a JVC D-ILA in another room and have been VERY pleased with it.

I'm not planning to do anything immediate but after watching the D-ILA most of the time lately I fired up the D50Q and realized that it was starting to get fairly dim. I'm projecting the image onto a 133" diagonal Da-Lite screen with "High Power" fabric (2.8 gain). Even with that the image is pretty dim. And to make matters worse this is definitely not a light controlled room (one side is all windows). It works great during the winter months when the sun goes down early but it's not particularly useful for movies during the summer.

I decided that if I might need to "re-tube" the projector that I would seriously consider replacing/upgrading it with a new digital model. I had several reasons for this.

I have a degree in TV production and years ago I worked at a TV station and did maintenance on equipment. I own the service manual for the projector and have several calibration DVDs. I used to get great satisfaction out of tweaking it until it was perfect but lately I would rather just watch movies. For this reason the lack of convergence on digital appeals to me.

I also didn't relish the idea of having to dismount the projector (it weighs about 120 pounds), packing it up and shipping it somewhere, and being without it while the tubes were installed (not to mention what the cost might be). Being able to just replace a lamp is very appealing. And if I ever did need to take a digital projector in for service it would be much easier to handle.

On the other hand I am somewhat concerned about pixel visibility on a screen this large (the viewing distance is about 14'). I currently own a Dwin Transcanner line multiplier and it is a wonderful piece of equipment but obviously of no use on a digital projector.

One good thing about this forum is that there is no lack of information or opinions ;) I'll just keep scouring the forums while I do my research. So far the Sony "Ruby" looks very interesting to me but I don't plan on making a purchase until at least early next year (probably closer to April/May timeframe).
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raster
I can't view Digital threads in the CRT forum. It's against the rules.
You trying to get me into trouble? :mad:

It's ok Ras, don't worry about getting in trouble. :)

Personally, I can't make heads or tails of this thread or what the ACTUAL question is. Is this another "which one is better" thread? If it is, not much has changed, except for the Ruby and some prices.

The bottom line is that if you are going to spend 10K and have a real space problem, like in your living room, then the Ruby is for you. It has LCoS technology like the D'ILA, which gives a nice film image. If you can't afford to buy a projector in that price range and/or you have the room to ceiling mount a CRT, than you will get the most bang for your buck and it will be cheaper to keep operating.

Remember, it's not uncommon to see Marquees with 30K plus hours on their second or third set of tubes and STILL going strong. So in terms of reliability, the CRT projector is STILL THE KING.

When it comes to plain old LCD digital projectors, the panels don't have as long a life span as D'ILAs. As for DLP, the jury is still out.

If you're looking for a projector in the $500 range, NOTHING you buy will be really good. :p

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Old 10-06-2005, 01:52 AM
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i guess a digital would be good if you have Cataracts, or you can fry the image into your brain :) I wouldn't mind going digital some day when they can get more film like. It dosen't hurt that i got my 10pg reasonably, can't wait to hang it and prepare to drool.

I think in the end that get what you like and what fits your bill, and be happy.

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Old 10-06-2005, 11:42 AM
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I got an AE900 last night and tried this out in my dark theater. All of the color is shifted toward blue and green in the highest on/off CR modes in my view and I think a color filter is called for to properly set this thing up for a controlled home theater environment. This means that out of the box the video "blacks" did have a blue shift, but after balancing out the colors by filtering to get about the best on/off CR, I did not personally perceive any color shift at video "black". This projector has threads built into the lens for a 77 mm filter and some of us will be looking for the best filter for these, in general. I don't expect bluish blacks to be a problem after calibration for improved on/off CR at D65 like this.

--Darin

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Old 10-06-2005, 01:11 PM
 
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Darin, are you able to gett good greyscale now, and have you figured out the washout?
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Old 10-06-2005, 02:51 PM
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Aww crap. The meet had to be postponed until next week. Oh well, I guess we'll all just have to wait...... :^)

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
Aww crap. The meet had to be postponed until next week. Oh well, I guess we'll all just have to wait...... :^)
If your friend with the AE700 or AE900 doesn't have a color filter then they may want to consider getting one in the meantime. I just ordered one that people use on the AE700 and I'm guessing will also be a reasonable one for the AE900 (given that I think they have the same bulbs). I'll probably get it next Wednesday and then have an idea about good calibration setup with it later. If he wants one, he could search for item 65073766 at www.bhphotovideo.com and see the one for $53 plus shipping.

If the Optoma is the H79 then if the owner of that wants to try a color filter to optomize it they could search for item EK1496728 at www.bhphotovideo.com and find the CC20R for $24 plus shipping. Not all of the same projector model are the same, but I think they tend to be close enough that I could probably give him or you some calibration numbers that would be likely to work pretty well with a CC20R filter on one of these, if the sources are standard video levels (not PC levels).

Have fun at Art's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
Darin, are you able to get good greyscale now, and have you figured out the washout?
I may wait until that filter shows up to really try to calibrate one of these AE900s and I haven't looked at that scene from LOTR yet. I didn't see washout like that with other things I watched though.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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