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post #181 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles

I don't think that's the case at all anymore, it's really different tradeoffs. I think it actually takes a little more critical viewing and education and people may prefer CRT a bit, depending on material.
Of course there are different tradeoffs, but overall means overall of the tradeoffs in relation to image quality, perceived or otherwise.


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As I said above, they are anything but useless, and I think anyone interested in video reproduction should pay attention to what it is they're seeing, why it is, and how that is quantified in objective measurements and then how that could be improved.
Agreed, but........

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The interplay between on/off CR and ANSI CR define blacks and how they appear in different images.
Look at the figures quoted by digital manufaturers on these counts. Many of these figures should relate to better blacks than you see from CRTs!! This, however, is not the case. When direct comparisons are made and the CRT is noticeably better on most counts then I'm told the digital device is not properly calibrated. However, it was and a filter was used to aid it.
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post #182 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 03:48 PM
 
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Look at the figures quoted by digital manufaturers on these counts. Many of these figures should relate to better blacks than you see from CRTs!! This, however, is not the case. When direct comparisons are made and the CRT is noticeably better on most counts then I'm told the digital device is not properly calibrated. However, it was and a filter was used to aid it.
Again, you're using "blacks" in an ambiguous sense. In some scenes the numbers predict that digital blacks will be better, and indeed when you view they are. In some scenes, the number predict CRT blacks will be better, and low and behold when you view, they are.

And distinct from this too is shadow detail, which is not synonomous with "blacks."

I don't see why this has to be so controversial for some?
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post #183 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
Look at the figures quoted by digital manufaturers on these counts. Many of these figures should relate to better blacks than you see from CRTs!! This, however, is not the case. When direct comparisons are made and the CRT is noticeably better on most counts then I'm told the digital device is not properly calibrated. However, it was and a filter was used to aid it.
Where were you told it wasn't properly calibrated? Are you talking about the G90 vs H79? We were discussing the G70 and H79 and I made my comments about the 2 uncalibrated projectors that Cliff started this thread about. I know the one in your comparison had a color filter. That is still different from my H79 as I have explained before. I am getting significantly more on/off CR through modification.

I didn't think you would have the gall to be referring to your G90 vs H79 comparison when you said:
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
When comparisons are done between the digitals and crts (with real people looking at the image), I think you will find that OVERALL, the majority of people will (if they are open minded and NOT bias digital/crt owners) favour the image produced from the CRT. Specs or otherwise, that's what these comparisons HAVE shown. Obviously, CRT has it's shortfalls too, as do the digitals, but I said OVERALL!
Is that not what has been shown above??
Is that G90 vs H79 comparison what you were referring to?

--Darin

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post #184 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2
I will disagree that many of the things we see aren't explained by measurements and just about anybody who has been to a comparison with me knows that what is on the screen matters and I'm looking for the reasons things look that way and how changes to the system could change how we perceive the images, not the other way around.
Then many digitals should outperform their CRT counterparts, but they don't. It maybe a matter of perception and what our eyes have grown accustomed to, but I don't believe you can buy a projector and be happy, based soley on it's measurements. You have to see them in action, relatively and when this is done (as above) the results don't always match up with the measurements.
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BTW: Do you calibrate to D65? In other words, do color measurements matter to you?.
I currently have no colometer available. I have used avia and my eyes to adjust greyscale etc

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Does your post here mean you aren't going to answer the question about "I, Robot" or "Return of the King"? Can you tell me that they would look better on a G70 than on my H79 in a room like mine, given that what I commented on earlier was your statement that the picture would be better if I got rid of my H79 and got a G70? BTW: I agree for some things, but not for everything and maybe not overall. For one thing, I don't like horizontal lines. The average person probably doesn't even see those just as they didn't see the vertical lines on the Epson based LCDs (like the Panasonics) until I and others pointed them out.
I honestly believe it would.

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So, is that a "No" on the question of warrantee. I would pick a 3 year (or even 2 year) warranty where I send it to the company and it comes back fixed over a fix it myself kind of thing, even if the unit is easier to fix. But that is just me. Everybody has to choose for themselves. And yes, the cost of all items needs to be considered, just as I have mentioned multiple times. But the mix of items is different for different people and setups and so the whole cost thing gets complicated.
You can get a warranty from some resellers. Of course the new product will come with a warranty and that's a definate plus, but looking at a technology that is as fast evolving as digital, compared to the very mature technology of CRT, depreciation will occur faster and greater than CRTs and the design is one more akin to replacement after the warranty period, than repair.


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Sure, but if a person had done a digital vs CRT on a digital forum with a professionally calibrated CRT vs 2 mostly uncalibrated CRTs (or even calibrated CRTs) I think a lot of CRT people would be giving their opinions over there. And I would have absolutely no problem with that at all. In fact, if they were clearing anything up I would consider it a good thing.
Edited.......
In the tests we did, the digital was calibrated using avia, just as the CRT was. The digital also had a filter (i.e. modded) unlike my CRT. The screen gain is 1.1. The CRT was a hell of a lot brighter, blacks a hell of alot blacker. The digital suffered from dithering (both were fed from the same scaler via analogue), rainbows, grey blacks and screendoor. Colours were uniform on both and sharpness was also very good on both.
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BTW: I respect your position and opinions on this, but think that if we were looking at the images in the same room with my H79 and a G70, we could see where the strengths of each were and how a lot of this is measureable and explained by measurements. Just like the on/off CR measurements explain a lot about why CRTs do so well in the darkest scenes compared to current digitals and ANSI CR measurements help explain a lot about why non-LC CRTs do so poorly with bright white on black (for an extreme case).

--Darin
I agree, but with the brightness you get from your digital, why are you using an HP screen? A higher gain screen (too high and you get colourshift) would help with the brightness issues with the G70 and IMHO would perform better imagewise (overall ;)) than the H79.
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post #185 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Is that G90 vs H79 comparison what you were referring to?

--Darin
Sorry, my mistake. For some reason I thought you were referring to comparison I had done.
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post #186 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
Again, you're using "blacks" in an ambiguous sense. In some scenes the numbers predict that digital blacks will be better, and indeed when you view they are.
Chris, it's hardly controversial, but I am yet to see this!
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post #187 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mikecazzx
Cliff, Casey was talking about the ND filters. This one (CC20) appears to deal with color only - not the black issue.

Any ideas - do I have to use a CC plus and ND?

Also - the pc vs video level issue has me confused. I would need to calibrate on input for pc DVI out and another for dvd or DVHS out?
Mike,

All of your sources usually need to be calibrated.....

Cliff
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post #188 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by GScott
Cliff,

I forget, what screen were you using? I have decided that I will definately be doing a high gain screen. The torus I have now gives my G70 some amazing brightness.
Torus screens sure do crank out that light for sure. Casey was getting easily 11FL of light from his 100" diag Torus with his XGLC.

My screen is a Da-Lite Cinemavision 1.3 Gain 120" 4:3.

Cliff
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post #189 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 04:32 PM
 
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Chris, it's hardly controversial, but I am yet to see this!
It depends what we're talking about here, with an LC machine, the threshold will be higher where the ANSI begins to cause loss of detail and blacks compared to a DLP. On an AC-machine, this threshold is quite low, so pretty much anything other than very low-APL material will be more resolved on the digital by sheer ANSI contrast capability. Of course, then we get into which is more important, and that's a more subtle preference. To me, black-outs are pretty important, but they are a relatively minor portion of the content you watch in a normal film, but most any film will have some very dark scenes or black-outs.

This and smoothness is why I like CRT so much, but I just think that when it comes to "black" it really depends on the scene as to which is better.
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post #190 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
Then many digitals should outperform their CRT counterparts, but they don't.
I don't understand a position that if measurements matter then a person has to jump to, "then x outperforms y". Maybe if they don't know what the measurements mean. A misinterpretation of measurements doesn't invalidate them, it invalidates the interpretation. And in some areas the digitals definitely do outperform the CRTs, which matches the measurements.
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
It maybe a matter of perception and what our eyes have grown accustomed to, but I don't believe you can buy a projector and be happy, based soley on it's measurements.
I never said you could. But I can explain with measurements why when I'm watching a scene on some CRT all of a sudden one corner of the screen changes intensity in an unnatural way just because another part of the screen got brighter. Just as I can explain why a CRT would do really well on certain kinds of scenes.
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
You have to see them in action, relatively and when this is done (as above) the results don't always match up with the measurements.
As I said, this is the internet. If we were looking at them then I could show you without numbers. Here is a calculator where you can plug in different numbers for on/off CR and ANSI CR along with room gain and see how the instantaneous CRs would compare with some different patterns. And if people looked at these and the numbers are right then they should match up. Basically, when the on/off CR is too low the APL where a higher on/off CR projector will beat it in black level is reasonably high. Other than blackouts, both matter somewhat, but a person can see by playing around with the calculator that in low APL scenes the on/off CRs are very important and only trumped by ANSI CR if those are very low. In the brightest mixed scenes ANSI CR makes quite a bit of difference and this is something else we've seen. They do need to keep in mind the diminishing returns as instantaneous CRs get higher, depending on the image makeup, though.

Some of us are planning on going to see an LCD flat panel with 200k:1 on/off CR and I believe good ANSI CR. I think the measurements will play out in the images we will see and if they don't, then I will want to figure out why not.

As I've mentioned before, at current levels I believe that with CRTs (mostly LC CRTs though) having better on/off CR and DLPs having better ANSI CR, overall I would give the "black level advantage" to the LC CRTs. However, the DLPs still have the advantage for some scenes. Probably even the majority of scenes in the case of my H79, but with probably a bigger step away from ideal in the scenes where it still needs improvement. In any case, I would be very surprised if people couldn't see the ANSI CR advantage of my H79 in a proper room in a comparison of a G70.
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
You can get a warranty from some resellers.
I understand that. My question was just whether you were using pricing from resellers with warranties (and even some of those are very short) or not. I would be nervous about buying from somebody without a warranty without completely checking something out myself or by somebody I really trust to be picky. Just like somebody I knew who bought a G70 that was claimed to be perfect. To the seller maybe it was because he wasn't picky enough to notice that the red tube had a problem where it would continue to glow at video black, which it seems is a fairly common problem to occur with G70 red tubes (one of my friends has this problem and will probably be replacing his red tube soon).
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
This is where I have a problem...... in the tests we did, the digital was calibrated using avia, just as the CRT was. The digital also had a filter (i.e. modded) unlike my CRT. The screen gain is 1.1. The CRT was a hell of a lot brighter, blacks a hell of alot blacker. The digital suffered from dithering (both were fed from the same scaler via analogue), rainbows, grey blacks and screendoor. Colours were uniform on both and sharpness was also very good on both .
Your still talking about the G90 vs H79 here though. I think that is quite a difference from a G70 vs an H79, especially one modified like mine with a proper setup for it. I was at a comparison with a Qualia (mine) and a 9501LC with some MP modes where I think the clear majority was that the Qualia looked better overall, but I don't take that to mean that a Qualia would always (or even usually) beat a 9501LC. There are a lot of factors involved, including that he didn't follow Mike's recommendation to move all of his source equipment to within 6' (by cable length) of the projector. In this case, I just don't think it is reasonable to extend a G90 vs H79 comparison to, "When comparisons are done between the digitals and crts"?

BTW: By "modded" I didn't mean a filter. A filter is just calibrated to me. Modded is when I take the thing apart and start making changes inside.
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
I agree, but with the brightness you get from your digital, why are you using an HP screen?
1. Because I can modify the H79 for much higher on/off CR at lower lumens that give me ft-lamberts I am happy with for a lot of things.
2. Because I can go bigger (like my 116" and 120" wide High Powers) and still have bright enough images.
3. Because they have very good uniformity in general when setup right.
4. Because they don't tend to show waves, which is hard for pull-down screens that aren't tensioned (and those tend to cost more money).
5. Because they are cheap for their sizes with what they offer.

And for something like the Sharp 11k, because if I feel like going really bright, I can (by opening up the iris and using a High Power).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
A higher gain screen (too high and you get colourshift) would help with the brightness issues with the G70 and IMHO would perform better than the H79.
What screen would you suggest for a good price that wouldn't cause other issues? The screen my G70 owning friend uses is already 1.5 gain. It has the colorshift and the dropoff from center to outside that is especially evident on things like, "Ice Age". But, I think it is a good tradeoff for him.

I will say that a Torus with a G70 might help it a lot. But those are expensive or pretty much DIY. I have nothing wrong with DIY, but just view it as somewhat different from what most people want.

--Darin

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post #191 of 845 Old 10-16-2005, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
The brightness can also bring out more artifacts. I have shown people how much difference it can make just how I set things up as far as brighter vs dimmer (even just swapping screens so that we know things coming out of the projector are the same). When went between maybe 6 and 12 ft-lamberts with the 11k people saw that the images smoothed out and artifacts were less noticable on the 6 ft-lamberts that pretty much matched the levels for the G70 in the same room. People can look at Gary's HS51 thread to see how much difference these things can make.

As far as the levels you guys were looking at, if the H79 was 18 ft-lamberts, then it's whites would have been close to 3 times as bright as the way I have my H79 setup and the absolute blacks about 5-6 times as bright (depending on how you had it calibrated).

This is one of the issues I was referring to with the H79's component input, as it doesn't seem to do as good with shadow detail as the DVI input. For darker scenes I think the G70 could still have the shadow detail advantage, but when scenes have a lot of bright stuff in them and the room is properly controlled (very dark walls) the H79 actually has an ANSI CR advantage where it washes out the darker parts less. I would have to look at actual scenes to have an idea which would have the advantage in some of these mixed scenes. And with the circuit tse is working on it might help the CRTs in this area.

On the film vs video thing, I just view much of the prevaling wisdom as guidelines. In that one comparison of the 11k and G70 the 11k seemed to get more votes on the one film content "Gladiator" and the G70 more (at least that is the way I would have voted) on the video content ("The Beauty of Japan"). As I've mentioned before, a lot of the best film content has a fair amount in common with video content, as far as sharpness and lack of artifacts. That is how I view "I, Robot" on D-Theater somewhat.

BTW: If you are interested in seeing what I'm talking about here with my H79 then you are welcome to come out to Seattle and spend a night in the guest room I have. I checked and there are flights under $210 from Chicago. I'm sure you could meet some of the other CRT guys from around here too and we might be able to go do a comparison with someone else's G70.

--Darin
Darin,

I will be more than happy to head out your way to check out your magic. I am curious to see the real world performance you are getting from your tweaking. I'm thinking it just might be possible soon so I will be in touch.

One thing though, your gonna have to stock up on LOTS OF BOOZE! :D

Plus, the conversation would go much much quicker than all of this typing!

Cliff
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post #192 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by overclkr
I will be more than happy to head out your way to check out your magic. I am curious to see the real world performance you are getting from your tweaking. I'm thinking it just might be possible soon so I will be in touch.

One thing though, your gonna have to stock up on LOTS OF BOOZE! :D
I knew that. :) Shouldn't be a problem.

BTW: Some of us are driving up to Vancouver (maybe 3 hours) the morning of Saturday, November 5th to see the Brightside flat panel LCD that has over 200k:1 on/off CR and I think should have big ANSI CR too (I think this will be close to $50k, but I'm interested in seeing some material on it for curiousity's sake). So, if you are interested in seeing that too you could come that weekend. We probably wouldn't get a chance to go do a comparison with a CRT then, but you could see the stuff in my theater.
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Originally Posted by overclkr
Plus, the conversation would go much much quicker than all of this typing!
Definitely. Plus, a picture is worth a thousand words.

--Darin

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post #193 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 11:12 AM
 
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Plus, a picture is worth a thousand words.
haha! look everyobody! A pun!

:D
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post #194 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 02:17 PM
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The good news from this review is that for $2,300 street (Panny 900), $3,800 street ( HD78DC3), and $4,500 street (reseller G70 new tubes ), one can get a very satisfying picture.

The other takeaway I have is that the G70 is the current pound for pound price/performance leader in the marketplace, how things have changed in two years.

I would like to hear more details from the participants about the different scenes they viewed and how the 3 pjs compared per scene. On what scenes were they very close? Where were they far apart?

While the back and forth from the usual suspects, myself included :) is entertaining, it has been done several times before.

It would be nice to do another shootout once mikecazzx and casenpt1 filter/tune their respective pjs.

With the new found respect for the flashlights, well we see the retiring of the P on the Sharp 12k icon for good? :) ;) :)
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post #195 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 02:19 PM
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Anyone know what the MSRP of the G70 was when it was initially released?
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post #196 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cmont
Anyone know what the MSRP of the G70 was when it was initially released?
My info says $17,990

Now a member of the Marquee Maniacs Club
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post #197 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 03:07 PM
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you know what, I have to add to this CRT vs digital thingy

I recently with the purchase of a CRT RPTV(after selling my 808s to a forum member) got back into bias backlighting, 6500K of course

This in my opinion(and the opinion of many other pro's) is the absolute best way to view films, I have a all neutral gray viewing room and with the back lighting, I think this is possibly the best viewing enviornment I have ever had, it is notyhing but pure enjoyment

with this back lighting like this, that HS51 808s shootout of mine would have had new light shed on it

I betcha a die hard CRT nut like me could possibly live with and enjoy one of these new 1080p LCD's, as a matter of fact I know I could

CRT blacks in a darkened room are even put to shame with 6500K bias lighting and a CRT display device, details in blacks pop and yet one has inky blacks

But the question is raised to someone like Darin, how the heck would a fella use a FP and back lighting??, I would think that using the FP in a RPTV setup would be the only way possible??

I just wanted to add this because I reaized how much I missed my Bias lighting when I had my CRT FP setup

-Gary
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post #198 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
I betcha a die hard CRT nut like me could possibly live with and enjoy one of these new 1080p LCD's, as a matter of fact I know I could
Just to be clear, these are 720p, but I think it still stands that you might like them. You seem very perceptive and would probably see vertical banding on an AE900 that had some. I see some, but I think many regular people wouldn't even see it if I pointed it out with the amount my AE900 has, just like many don't see horizontal lines with CRTs (even at 1080i). I'm guessing that most picky people here would see it on bright stuff with this AE900 though.
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Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
But the question is raised to someone like Darin, how the heck would a fella use a FP and back lighting??, I would think that using the FP in a RPTV setup would be the only way possible??
With a pulldown screen you could just put the screen out from the wall a little bit with a light behind. Many pulldown screens have a black backing, but I'm not sure if extra would be wanted there. With a fixed screen you could put it on standoffs out from the wall, make sure that you have a barrier between that light and the screen and put a light behind. I've never setup a successful backlighting and so there are others around who know a lot more about the specifics than I though. I think quite a few people used backlighting with the old DILAs (like the one Cliff got).

In the Barco vs HS51 thread I did make the mistake of assuming that you preferred watching with no lights on in the room since you seemed to want your blackouts so much and didn't realize until later that you liked backlighting. Lesson learned on my part.

--Darin

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post #199 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2
I see some, but I think many regular people wouldn't even see it if I pointed it out with the amount my AE900 has, just like many don't see horizontal lines with CRTs (even at 1080i).
I had read that they actually seemed to have fixed this in the AE900 compared to the 700. I was cynical (of course) but thought it might be true. Is this PJ specific or a defect effecting all--if you've had the chance to assertain?

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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
It would be nice to do another shootout once mikecazzx and casenpt1 filter/tune their respective pjs.
In that spirit, did you guys watch the H78 long enough to figure out if any of the people there were in the 10-15% of the human population that gets fatiqued by the high frequency flashing light of the DLP? If so, how long could you watch it before the fatique set in and how long of a break did you have to take before you felt "refreshed"?

I saw this touched on when the CRT was desribed as the easiest to watch, but could not tell if it was DLP fatique, or just in general (i.e. the LCD was pretty easy to watch also, or it also was not as easy to watch as the CRT)?

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post #200 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 06:15 PM
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OT a bit but related though.
I am in market for a sub 3K none crt for casual watching.
Yasterday I went to local store Ovation and had the HS51 onto a 87 wide 1.3 StudioTek and pic was nice but not nearly as nice as my 1352. Then I went to Wilder who had the same PJ onto 106" diag. Interestingly they had a 200 HR Sony D50 in the next room. Source was Discovery HD via Motorola 6xxx. Boy I was surprised. The D50 was absolutely a clear winner in every dept even in brightness. D50 set up was short of my own Nec but better than the HS. I stood up in the doorway to be able to see both PJ's.

I played with the HS a bit. Lamp had about 1000 hrs and it was in user's with DI on and black in high mode. Contrast 65 and brightness 45. I am thinking to get a HS60 later when available in spite of all this demo.

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post #201 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM
I played with the HS a bit. Lamp had about 1000 hrs and it was in user's with DI on and black in high mode. Contrast 65 and brightness 45. I am thinking to get a HS60 later when available in spite of all this demo.
Colors are good on the HS51 and it has some other good things, but the SDE horrible. Didn't you find the SDE from any normal viewing distance (<1.6x screen width) to be unacceptable? To me, this is the achilles heel of the Sony's that makes it unwatchable. The way they are going that probably won't be overcome until they put 1080p panels in there.

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post #202 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM
I played with the HS a bit. Lamp had about 1000 hrs and it was in user's with DI on and black in high mode. Contrast 65 and brightness 45. I am thinking to get a HS60 later when available in spite of all this demo.
For the HS51 the DI must be in auto mode, not on. Thats the difference between > 3,500:1 CR in auto, and < 900:1 in on! There is also a 2x difference in light output.

I owned a D50 for 7 years, I currently own a G70 and a HS51. IMO the HS51 is much better than a D50, and 1/2 step behind the G70. As far as SDE, the majority will have no issuse past 1.75 x width. If you are very sensitive an IMX lens ($500) will give you the same "smoothscreen" effect which is in the Panny 900.

The new HS60 speced at 10,000:1 CR with an IMX for the "smoothscreen" effect may be an interesting competitor for the G70!
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post #203 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 07:41 PM
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True, the colors were looked more saturated but I found the colors of my own CRT more believeable. But then again it is me. I have to admit thu that the D50 was being projected onto a 87" side merely a foot smaller. I was at about 16" away from both and screen door while visible it was only bothersome on white portion of the content. What was the major difference to me the lack of contrast ratio in both mixed scenes and obviouly the dark and fades were the most lacking of all.

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post #204 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
For the HS51 the DI must be in auto mode, not on. Thats the difference between > 3,500:1 CR in auto, and < 900:1 in on! There is also a 2x difference in light output.

I owned a D50 for 7 years, I currently own a G70 and a HS51. IMO the HS51 is much better than a D50, and 1/2 step behind the G70. As far as SDE, the majority will have no issuse past 1.75 x width. If you are very sensitive an IMX lens ($500) will give you the same "smoothscreen" effect which is in the Panny 900.

The new HS60 speced at 10,000:1 CR with an IMX for the "smoothscreen" effect may be an interesting competitor for the G70!
I spent about 20 min there. I played with auto a bit and found in some scenes from HD net it was lagging behind in some rapidly varying brightness content. So I turned to On. I am sure you are correct on that. I do have a sony lowly HS3 seating in the closet which I play some contents for my kids time to time.

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post #205 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
If you are very sensitive an IMX lens ($500) will give you the same "smoothscreen" effect which is in the Panny 900.
While I think they are the same concept at this point I think the Panasonic SmoothScreen might have more of a smoothing effect than the IMX. I would have to do more testing, but I think they are slightly different.

After doing some more viewing of the 900, at this point I'm leaning toward thinking that I probably prefer it to the HS51, even with an IMX on that one. Paritally because of a faster iris. I don't have them in the same room and so am going by memory partially though. And I think the Kris Deering's HS51 looked better than a couple of other HS51s I've seen for some reason (and it measured higher on/off CR).

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post #206 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM
I was at about 16" away from both and screen door while visible it was only bothersome on white portion of the content. What was the major difference to me the lack of contrast ratio in both mixed scenes and obviouly the dark and fades were the most lacking of all.
If you were 16' from a 106" screen, then you were over 2.1x screen width away. That is a similar viewing angle to the back of theater. If at >2.1x you saw SDE on white content, the you will see the SDE on most content from a more normal viewing distance of around 1.5x.

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post #207 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM
I spent about 20 min there. I played with auto a bit and found in some scenes from HD net it was lagging behind in some rapidly varying brightness content. So I turned to On.
If you notice and are bothered by the rate the DI changes, the HS51 is not for you. CLK noted in his review that the HS60's DI is fasterthan the HS50. The Panny 900 has the fastest DI, speced at 60fps, so may be a better option. In any case DI-On is the worst mode in which to view the HS51.
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post #208 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
While I think they are the same concept at this point I think the Panasonic SmoothScreen might have more of a smoothing effect than the IMX. I would have to do more testing, but I think they are slightly different.
--Darin
I stand corrected. I have seen a friend's IMXed HS51, and it does have a similar smoothing effect to a Panny 700 I saw. The IMX seened to be sharper than the Panny however, so you are correct, they are slightly different.
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post #209 of 845 Old 10-17-2005, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
I stand corrected. I have seen a friend's IMXed HS51, and it does have a similar smoothing effect to a Panny 700 I saw. The IMX seened to be sharper than the Panny however, so you are correct, they are slightly different.
I should probably rephrase what I said. The IMX is more flexible in the sense that you decide how much you want to move the second copy of the image it creates (and you can remove the IMX). The SmoothScreen seems more like splitting each pixel into 4 that kind of spread out to fill the gaps and so a little different. What I was thinking after doing some testing last night was that at the same amount of SDE reduction the SmoothScreen might retain a little more sharpness, but the IMX could probably retain more sharpness with less SDE reduction. But I didn't have an HS51 (just the H79 and 11k) and maybe my impressions will change with more testing.

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post #210 of 845 Old 10-18-2005, 09:54 AM
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Black issues fixed aside(with back lighting) no way I could stand a 720p unit, I spotted SDE easily at almost 3x width, maybe 1080p at 2x would work for me

I think that the HS51 with bias lighting, a IMX lens and 20/20 vision would be a pretty decent setup ;)

I am currently happy with my Mits RPTV, but 2/3 years down the road I am already planning a massive new HT room and it will have Rear Projection from a Front PJ, I am so tired of dealing with issues with the PJ in the viewing enviornment, can't wait :)

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