darin's contrast ratio thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 11:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
Wow, that's interesting. The G70 will actually be brighter?????

Cliff
Only in this instance. Remember, a CRTs light output per "pixel" is not uniform like a digital. On a CRT, a 10% white window is way brighter than a a 100% field. The Panny has very poor panel CR, so it has to work the heck out of its dynamic iris. Heck, the AE700 needed the dynamic Iris just to get 1700:1 on/off CR! So, on a dark scene, it has to crank the iris way down and change the gamma to get good shadow detail. The by product of this that a small white patch will not be that bright because the iris is choking it down.

The thing that will blow you away is if it is a Panny 700 or 900, it will have less SDE than the optoma! An LCD with less SDE than a DLP! This is because the lens splits and blurs the pixels. You will actually be able to watch the panny from about 1.5x screen width back. You won't be able to watch the Optoma from there. Other interesting thing that will bug the crap out of you on the panny is going to be the blue blacks. Put in a fade to black scene and notice how it is a fade to blue. Also, you'll notice vertical banding on some scenes with uniform color on the Panny (like a sky shot).

But, to be fair, you can pick up a used 700 from an individual for about $1500--or about the price of a M8500 or 808/1208 from an individual (gee, which is better ;) ). Heck, a new 900 is only going to cost you $2300. Certainly, the G70 will go for more than that and there is a very good reason. Now, if the Optoma is an H79 or H78DC3, that is a pretty good comparison of what someone can get for their money.

Dave
Person99 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 11:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Gary Murrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 10,927
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
my 808s vs HS51 comparison showed (with both calibrated properly) that the Barco was a little brighter than the HS51, this was after adding the ND filter to the HS51 that Darin loaned me and I have still failed to send back to him :( :( , Sorry Darin!!

This 1.5x crap is total bull, anyone with a very good eye (and maybe a little on the picky side) will be able to notice screen door on 720p units from 3x back, I sure could

-Gary
Gary Murrell is offline  
post #93 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 02:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
This 1.5x crap is total bull, anyone with a very good eye (and maybe a little on the picky side) will be able to notice screen door on 720p units from 3x back, I sure could
I'm still confused about this post (with main points bolded) at the point you were considering keeping the HS51.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
I just tried the component input on my HS51, now I am begininng to think that the HDMI input is bad also

up until today I have not tested anything but HDMI

The component input of the HS51 when comparing my JVD 5u D-VHS deck is no contest, the 1080i image from my "Goldeneye" D-VHS tape is gorgeous and looks much much better using the component input over the HDMI on the 5u

I showed my brother and he was like what do you do to the unit??
adding the ND filter and the Color filter along with trying component on the HS51 has shed a whole new light on this PJ

there is something wrong with the HDMI input on the HS51, it has really really bad screen door, comparing it to the component output on all my sources including:

NeuNeo 2081
Dish network 942 pvr
jvd 5u D-VHS

yields a much much smoother image, with alot less digital artifacts including pixelization and SDE

I am floored by some of the images I am getting now via the Component input, all my sources look much better

the HDMI input has a horrible scaled look and is hugely overscanned, the VGA and component inputs are nice indeed

I also tried a new experiment and got some damn fine dvd playback

I set my NeuNeo to 720p and component out, hooked up my Petr transcoder and input into the VGA input on the HS51, now this is good dvd playback

with 720p into the VGA(the only way to get 1:1 with the HS51), the internal scaling is turned off 100%, what results is a much much better image, the internal scaling is decent at best, it does seem to do pretty good with 1080 > 720p conversion though

the DVD playback is fluid and not digital looking but the very least, the difference with the internal scaling on and off is amazing

bottom line is that I cannot get over how the HDMI input compared to the component input, it is like changing from a LCD pc monitor to a great CRT pc monitor, the image quality is great


I am now liking the HS51 alot better, after a week of tweaking, lords knows how much better it could get because my unit is a lemon with:

A shot HDMI input, bright blue dust blobs, horrible convergence and a serious black level gamma issue of some sort
So, if you could see SDE from 3x back with the component input, how far back could you see it with the HDMI input that you indicated had a lot more SDE? Or is your 3x now only for the input you considered the worst? And if you could just see SDE at 3x with an HS51 then you shouldn't be able to see any on recent 720p DLP units that have much better fill factors than the HS51, at the same ratio.

You also indicated that your vision was 20/10, which would put your vision at 2x 20/20 and even much better than 20/15 if accurate.

I would personally be very surprised if you could see SDE on an AE900 at 2x. I don't think most people could come close to seeing any at 1x on that unit.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #94 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 02:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
How confident are you in these statements of "fact"? Have you seen an AE900?
If you read my earlier post, I'm assuming it is a 700 because to be a 900, he would have had to just get it. So, for a 700, I'm quite sure these are fact. The 900 seems to have some considerably different claims (e.g. 5500:1 on/off as opposed to 2000:1), so I have no idea all the problems they have fixed in the 900. But, the interesting point is that this points out one of the other downsides of these PJs. Someone buys a 700 6 months ago, gets sick of vertical banding and blue blacks and has to upgrade to a 900 now. What problems will this have that they will fix in one year in the 1100 (or whatever they call it)?

Dave
Person99 is offline  
post #95 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 02:16 PM
 
Z-Photo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntsville - Alabama
Posts: 3,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I love D2

it is -

don't confuse me with the "facts" I know what I know. :D
Z-Photo is offline  
post #96 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 02:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
This 1.5x crap is total bull, anyone with a very good eye (and maybe a little on the picky side) will be able to notice screen door on 720p units from 3x back, I sure could
Gary, I think you misunderstood me. I'm the one that said 1.5x--and I'm the one that's hyper critical of digital artifacts! I hate SDE, rainbows, DLP fatigue, dithering artifacts, et al.

Trust me, I don't see how they can sell the HS51 with that SDE! I can't sit 2x from the HS51 and stand it. I can't sit 1.5x from the optoma and stand it. But, the Panny out of the box essentially has a lens like the aftermarket lenses Darin wanted you to try on the HS51. This lens basically splits each pixel and gap into 4 smaller pixels and gaps. So, you have a vertical "resolution" of 1440 which means the spaces between the pixels get smaller. Also, it adds a gaussian blur to these sub pixels to create a blur into the pixel gaps, thus reducing them further and attempting to get a smooth film-like picture like the CRT does naturally. You might see just a bit on all light colored scenes, but nothing near like what you saw with the HS51. All I'm saying is that in this application, this bit of optical path manipulation does work.

Bottom line: I still don't think the picture is good and there is no way I would want one, but trust me, you can sit way closer to the screen with a Panny than you ever could with the HS51.

Dave
Person99 is offline  
post #97 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 02:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
If you read my earlier post, I'm assuming it is a 700 because to be a 900, he would have had to just get it.
Yep, you guessed that it was a 700, Cliff posted that they were new units, then you stated as a fact that the fade to black would be a fade to blue after indicating that it could be a 700 or 900:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
The thing that will blow you away is if it is a Panny 700 or 900, it will have less SDE than the optoma! An LCD with less SDE than a DLP! This is because the lens splits and blurs the pixels. You will actually be able to watch the panny from about 1.5x screen width back. You won't be able to watch the Optoma from there. Other interesting thing that will bug the crap out of you on the panny is going to be the blue blacks. Put in a fade to black scene and notice how it is a fade to blue.
Do you seriously not see the problem with stating something as a fact like this? I'm guessing you can go to that other site you like and make up anything you want without anybody pointing it out.

Also, even on the 700 a color filter can be used to address the overall color balance and I think this does address the skewed "blacks" on that one somewhat (although I haven't tried it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
But, the interesting point is that this points out one of the other downsides of these PJs. Someone buys a 700 6 months ago, gets sick of vertical banding and blue blacks and has to upgrade to a 900 now. What problems will this have that they will fix in one year in the 1100 (or whatever they call it)?
True. Pretty much nobody is working to address the issues with your CRT in a new model (other than one known company that has been looking for financing). You make it sound like it would be a bad thing if they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Photo
don't confuse me with the "facts" I know what I know.
Is that the best you can come up with? How about backing it up by pointing out even one fact I am wrong about here? As usually, I think you'll just go with stuff from people who own the same type of projector as you whether false or not.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #98 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 02:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
So, if you could see SDE from 3x back with the component input, how far back could you see it with the HDMI input that you indicated had a lot more SDE? Or is your 3x now only for the input you considered the worst? And if you could just see SDE at 3x with an HS51 then you shouldn't be able to see any on recent 720p DLP units that have much better fill factors than the HS51, at the same ratio.
Can't believe I'm saying this to you, but come on, don't split hairs. Perhaps this is a bit of hyperbole. But, let's face it, the SDE on the HS51 is simply awful. Does it really matter if you see SDE from 2.25x or 3x on it--the bottom line is, most people want to sit closer than either of these--and you simply can't do it with that.

Dave
Person99 is offline  
post #99 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 03:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Yep, you guessed that it was a 700, Cliff posted that they were new units, then you stated as a fact that the fade to black would be a fade to blue after indicating that it could be a 700 or 900:
Sorry I didn't get exacting. This was just my stream of though. But, given that they were problems with the 700, I think he should look for them even if it is a 900.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Do you seriously not see the problem with stating something as a fact like this?
Like I said above, these are facts with the 700, perhaps fixed in the 900. But, if you want to see a chart of the blue black:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...05-part-1.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I'm guessing you can go to that other site you like and make up anything you want without anybody pointing it out.
Man, you are pretty touchy for me not adding an additional qualifier half way through a paragraph when going from general to specific. Sheesh!

But, I guess you are talking about Nich's site. Actually, if you go read it, you'll find that in the absense of digital zealotry, we pretty much have no need to talk about inferior technology. :D

Quote:
True. Pretty much nobody is working to address the issues with your CRT in a new model (other than one known company that has been looking for financing). You make it sound like it would be a bad thing if they were.
No, it wouldn't be a bad thing. But, the CRT technology is pretty mature so rapid changes and creating and fixing new problems every year is long gone. The comment was more about the maturity of the technology and the risk of riding the wave at that point. As I've said, the early adopters are paying for the development of the tech. They are willing to pay lots of money for items they know have flaws and will need replacing shortly. I just quetion the logic of jumping on that bandwagon before the maturity curve flattens out a little.

Quote:
I think you'll just go with stuff from people who own the same type of projector as you whether false or not.
Actually, mine is a 1208/2, Pete uses those lower bandwidth prettier 808 machines. :)

Dave
Person99 is offline  
post #100 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 09:26 PM
Member
 
dlmorgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tigard, OR
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I figured I would jump in here and make a few comments. I am the poster of the original thread that spawned this one. I currently own a Sony VPH-D50Q. It has been quite good for me but now I also have a JVC D-ILA in another room and have been VERY pleased with it.

I'm not planning to do anything immediate but after watching the D-ILA most of the time lately I fired up the D50Q and realized that it was starting to get fairly dim. I'm projecting the image onto a 133" diagonal Da-Lite screen with "High Power" fabric (2.8 gain). Even with that the image is pretty dim. And to make matters worse this is definitely not a light controlled room (one side is all windows). It works great during the winter months when the sun goes down early but it's not particularly useful for movies during the summer.

I decided that if I might need to "re-tube" the projector that I would seriously consider replacing/upgrading it with a new digital model. I had several reasons for this.

I have a degree in TV production and years ago I worked at a TV station and did maintenance on equipment. I own the service manual for the projector and have several calibration DVDs. I used to get great satisfaction out of tweaking it until it was perfect but lately I would rather just watch movies. For this reason the lack of convergence on digital appeals to me.

I also didn't relish the idea of having to dismount the projector (it weighs about 120 pounds), packing it up and shipping it somewhere, and being without it while the tubes were installed (not to mention what the cost might be). Being able to just replace a lamp is very appealing. And if I ever did need to take a digital projector in for service it would be much easier to handle.

On the other hand I am somewhat concerned about pixel visibility on a screen this large (the viewing distance is about 14'). I currently own a Dwin Transcanner line multiplier and it is a wonderful piece of equipment but obviously of no use on a digital projector.

One good thing about this forum is that there is no lack of information or opinions ;) I'll just keep scouring the forums while I do my research. So far the Sony "Ruby" looks very interesting to me but I don't plan on making a purchase until at least early next year (probably closer to April/May timeframe).
dlmorgan is offline  
post #101 of 754 Old 10-05-2005, 10:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techman707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Florida & New York
Posts: 9,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by raster
I can't view Digital threads in the CRT forum. It's against the rules.
You trying to get me into trouble? :mad:

It's ok Ras, don't worry about getting in trouble. :)

Personally, I can't make heads or tails of this thread or what the ACTUAL question is. Is this another "which one is better" thread? If it is, not much has changed, except for the Ruby and some prices.

The bottom line is that if you are going to spend 10K and have a real space problem, like in your living room, then the Ruby is for you. It has LCoS technology like the D'ILA, which gives a nice film image. If you can't afford to buy a projector in that price range and/or you have the room to ceiling mount a CRT, than you will get the most bang for your buck and it will be cheaper to keep operating.

Remember, it's not uncommon to see Marquees with 30K plus hours on their second or third set of tubes and STILL going strong. So in terms of reliability, the CRT projector is STILL THE KING.

When it comes to plain old LCD digital projectors, the panels don't have as long a life span as D'ILAs. As for DLP, the jury is still out.

If you're looking for a projector in the $500 range, NOTHING you buy will be really good. :p

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
techman707 is offline  
post #102 of 754 Old 10-06-2005, 12:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
bomrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i guess a digital would be good if you have Cataracts, or you can fry the image into your brain :) I wouldn't mind going digital some day when they can get more film like. It dosen't hurt that i got my 10pg reasonably, can't wait to hang it and prepare to drool.

I think in the end that get what you like and what fits your bill, and be happy.

My new Company... CNG Conversions
Friends - Countrymen, lend my your Theaters :)
no theater here in Memphis :(
bomrat is offline  
post #103 of 754 Old 10-06-2005, 12:11 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Darin, are you able to gett good greyscale now, and have you figured out the washout?
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #104 of 754 Old 10-06-2005, 01:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
overclkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Aww crap. The meet had to be postponed until next week. Oh well, I guess we'll all just have to wait...... :^)

Cliff
overclkr is offline  
post #105 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 02:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
I promise Darin to try REALLY hard not to BASH the digitals..... :eek: :D :eek: :D

Cliff
After Friday night: For sale: One recently retubed and rehung G70 - calibrated by Ken Whitcomb.

Joking. The H78 is a LOT better than the digi's I saw just a few years back and does provide a pleasing image most of the time is all I can say for now.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #106 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 04:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
overclkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecazzx
After Friday night: For sale: One recently retubed and rehung G70 - calibrated by Ken Whitcomb.

Joking. The H78 is a LOT better than the digi's I saw just a few years back and does provide a pleasing image most of the time is all I can say for now.
Oooohhh those fightin' words!!! :D

Truth be told though, I have heard a lot of good things about the H78. Looking foward to checking it out........

Cliff
overclkr is offline  
post #107 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 06:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
bomrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
oh, this will be a good friday. can't wait to do an ab comparision. :)

My new Company... CNG Conversions
Friends - Countrymen, lend my your Theaters :)
no theater here in Memphis :(
bomrat is offline  
post #108 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 07:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
overclkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomrat
oh, this will be a good friday. can't wait to do an ab comparision. :)
Yep, looking foward to comparing canned beer vs. beer on tap :D :D :D :D

Talked to Casey. Looking good for the Panasonic as well.

Cliff
overclkr is offline  
post #109 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 07:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
bomrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
cool beans man. love to see what picture quality the digitals against the g70. someday maybe compare against the 10pg :)

My new Company... CNG Conversions
Friends - Countrymen, lend my your Theaters :)
no theater here in Memphis :(
bomrat is offline  
post #110 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 08:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
overclkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomrat
someday maybe compare against the 10pg :)
Yep....... Someday :D

Damn I wish I would have kept her..........

<Cliff wakes up from a dream with the wife smacking the crap out of him in the face bitching about his insane decision to own a 9" PJ>....... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
overclkr is offline  
post #111 of 754 Old 10-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Senior Member
 
JimmytheSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just for reference, we did a similar experiment with an H78 about a month ago here in Blighty, albeit with a G90.....See here

:)
JimmytheSaint is offline  
post #112 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 05:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
Just for reference, we did a similar experiment with an H78 about a month ago here in Blighty, albeit with a G90.....See here

:)
Sounds like the H78 did a decent job. Mine will not be calibrated vs the G70 - so its at a loss already.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #113 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 05:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles
Remember to view lots of full black frames!!!
Low contrast scenes or black frames do still cause the digital gray to appear.

95% or more of scenes look excellent so far to me.

Obviously the scenes noted above cannot be handled yet by any digital.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #114 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 07:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
overclkr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecazzx
Low contrast scenes or black frames do still cause the digital gray to appear.

95% or more of scenes look excellent so far to me.

Obviously the scenes noted above cannot be handled yet by any digital.
Mike,

From what I was told, the Optoma has very good blacks. I'm looking foward to seeing how far digital has come and how good you and Casey's PJ's are compared to say the Runco VX2 they have at The Little Guys.

Gonna be a fun night and we'll all post back our thoughts when it's all said and done. I wish we had a good digital camera and a steady hand to take some screen shots.....

Cliff
overclkr is offline  
post #115 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 08:10 PM
Senior Member
 
JimmytheSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The H78 is a good little unit for the cost, but NEEDS the filter mod to get to anywhere acceptable levels of black, otherwise the blacks are gray and rainbows are very apparent. This mod, however, makes the benefit of dlp 'brightness' evaporate and was a problem for me. In the demos we performed with both the H78 and also a viewing of the new CX3, 3 chip dlp, the digital guys ALL conceded the G90 produced a far superior image than their digital counterparts. What do you make of that Darin? :D
JimmytheSaint is offline  
post #116 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 08:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint
The H78 is a good little unit for the cost, but NEEDS the filter mod to get to anywhere acceptable levels of black, otherwise the blacks are gray and rainbows are very apparent. This mod, however, makes the benefit of dlp 'brightness' evaporate and was a problem for me. In the demos we performed with both the H78 and also a viewing of the new CX3, 3 chip dlp, the digital guys ALL conceded the G90 produced a far superior image than their digital counterparts. What do you make of that Darin? :D
I hope to avoid filters and gray screens. If the scene has good contrast, the Optoma throws some nice black levels, that much I am sure of.

I set my H78DC3 to the H79 settings posted here. This is what I will be setup at for the "shootout". I use a Carada 1.3 gain screen at 9' with a PNY Verto Ultra 5700 card (Nvidia) these two items will not be at the shootout.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=507075

I thought I would hate the Optoma H78DC3 - but was surprised and each night I am impressed again and again.

A properly calibrated CRT will light up a black screen or scene some. The debate about black levels though obviously has merit too.

I hope to capture some screen shots that show the character of each projector. I realize thats not a very technical method, but at least its a record of the event.

The great thing about this is, I am open minded. I am not setting stakes in either "camp". Whatever has the best picture best price or ease of use will all factor into a final decision. If I am blown away by CRT again I will simply keep the XG alive with a retubing and calibration.

For now - you can see uncalibrated, worn tube, screen shots from my XG in my AVS user profile.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #117 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 08:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
Im curious which Optoma are you going to compare the G70 with? H78 or 79?
Does it have the newest Dark Chip 3 [DC3] chipset?

-Rajiv
H78DC3 is the one we are going to compare.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #118 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 08:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Doesn't surprise me at all. We are talking about a G90 here. I would take a Ruby to a fight with a G90, not an H78. :) And even with the C3X I would have used the lumens from it to use a dark screen and help the ANSI CR retention, but I didn't hear what the room was like. I wouldn't aim for a bunch more ft-lamberts from a C3X than the CRT because it just makes it easier to see SDE and brings out artifacts from the sources. I was surprised that somebody said they could see screendoor from 2x with the H78 and would have seen it from further. I had a CRT owner with good eyes in my theater and he was having trouble seeing SDE from a position less than 1.5x with the way I had an H79 (the version I have) setup. But, I also don't focus sharply and don't make the images a lot brighter than a comparable CRT would be. Part of that was modifying the H79 for more on/off contrast ratio in this case.

--Darin
I agree - even using Guitarmans settings

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=507075

- which seem "hot" and "bright" on my screen - I have trouble seeing screen door even at 1.5x distance (front row). At 2x distance (back row) its a non issue.

This is again at 9' wide.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #119 of 754 Old 10-13-2005, 09:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikecazzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nw Indiana, Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
BTW: One more thing. Did you guys look at HD on the H78, or just DVDs? It was hard to tell from the writeup, but it looked like just DVDs. I know that many people still care mostly about DVDs, but I hardly watch any (other than AVIA Pro :)) and even Mike Parker indicated recently that he is pretty much done with DVDs. In the testing some of us have done I think we have all concluded that DVDs weight more toward the CRTs than HD. Especially with most DVDs that have quite a few artifacts that just show up even more on DLPs.

--Darin
Excellent point! In fact, somewhere earlier in my post about my first impressions of getting the H78DC3 in my room, I said that the HD files sold me. I was fairly impressed overall playing about 10 dvd's, but when I hit the HD files my jaw dropped. A CRT will massage a crappy dvd, smooth out its flaws. A digital will amplify them, however a digital will also make great source material in HD radiate.

The "average" dvd looks ok- great transfers on dvd look excellent on the H78 - but the HD really is where its at.

With the HD source material I can sit at 1.5x and it looks excellent whereas with some dvd's my 1.5x first row can get a grainy look to it on the H78.

I also think back now to many early DLP demos in showrooms playing back badly transferred dvd's or badly setup HD signals.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
mikecazzx is offline  
post #120 of 754 Old 10-14-2005, 04:41 AM
Senior Member
 
JimmytheSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
BTW: One more thing. Did you guys look at HD on the H78, or just DVDs? It was hard to tell from the writeup, but it looked like just DVDs. I know that many people still care mostly about DVDs, but I hardly watch any (other than AVIA Pro :)) and even Mike Parker indicated recently that he is pretty much done with DVDs. Other friends of mine with CRTs are getting the same way. In the testing some of us have done I think we have all concluded that DVDs weight more toward the CRTs than HD. Especially with most DVDs that have quite a few artifacts that just show up even more on DLPs. Some people even report being able to see more SDE with DVDs than HD, but it could be that they are seeing more scaling issues too.

--Darin

I think we compared like with like, i.e dvds with dvds, hd with hd, but don't hold me on it as we didn't have a long enough DVI cable to go to the Optoma, which may have aided it some more (we went component via a Crystalio scaler set to its native panel rez).
I agree that the use of a filter considerably helps these dlps produce a better black level and possibly even a more uniform colour balance, but light output is lessened to waaayyyyyyy below my G90 levels( brightness 32, contrast 54), unacceptable to my eye.
Overall I was impressed, but as you rightly said, the Ruby would be fair competition. Having toyed around with the Qualia, I still expect the Ruby to come second to the G90, (as I've stated before) but it certainly seems that SXRD is the way to go! I expect Cliff's G70 to be considerably better than the H78, also.
As far as dvd vs HD is concerned, I would agree with you to some extent, but very little of the 'recent dvd releases' are available on HD. Generally, I want to watch a movie of my choosing when I'm in the theatre, not just what the Comcast box is throwing out at the time!
I like to think that I'm an opened minded person and if a technology betters what I currently have, I will champion it, as my goal is video performance. I was lucky to find digital and CRT owners in the UK who also think alike! :)
JimmytheSaint is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread CRT Projectors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off