Affordable SCALER outperforms my HTPC - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 03:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
v1rtu0s1ty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: n0rth3rn 1ll1n01s
Posts: 3,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Card with QAM support will enable you to scan channels from cable tv providers like comcast, however, unencrypted. The Air2PC card I have supports QAM. The newer cards like FusionHDTV5 Gold or Lite also supports QAM in clear.
v1rtu0s1ty is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 04:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
linecircle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
1) would a $124 6600GT be better for deinterlacing to 1080p than the $500-$800 Quadro FX 1400?
2) can MPC take advantage of the nvidia deinterlacing?
Gosh this thread is branching out...
Nobody seems to have answered this already, so:
1) The 6600GT didn't use to have spatial temporal deinterlacing, it was enabled in some recent drivers. This leads me to believe the chips could already do it, they just haven't enabled it in software yet. For the quadro fx 1400, the checkbox for for spatial temporal deinterlacing in 'standard-definition content' is checked, so it can do the operations, but maybe they haven't tuned the drivers so that the chip can do it to hidef content without lagging. Just a theory.

2) MPC can be set to use nvidia purevideo codecs, in which case it will do the deinterlacing.

In 1080i .ts's, because of the (typically present) telecine flags in the data, I don't think spatial temporal deinterlacing is even used. Just reconstructing the frame is all that's needed. I would guess their fancy deinterlacing would be for when that fails.

For instance, I play 1080i film material on a 6600GT without the drivers that have hidef s-- t-- d-- (sick of typing it :rolleyes: ); it still outputs at 23.976fps according to reclock. And yes, it does look INCREDIBLE, even if my crt doesn't resolve it all heh.
linecircle is offline  
post #183 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 04:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Well I tried TT 2.2. whatever tonight on my HTPC (Rageon 9700 Pro) with my XG 1080i@72hz, and compared it to PowerDVD6 and did not see what all the fuss is about. Tried it at VMR9 renderless and overlay. Preffered overlay. I don;t really want to spend $200 on a new 6600GT to find that it is not that much better.
YONEXSP is offline  
post #184 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
draganm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brighton, Colorado
Posts: 4,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by YONEXSP
Well I tried TT 2.2. whatever tonight on my HTPC (Rageon 9700 Pro) with my XG 1080i@72hz, and compared it to PowerDVD6 and did not see what all the fuss is about. Tried it at VMR9 renderless and overlay. Preffered overlay. I don;t really want to spend $200 on a new 6600GT to find that it is not that much better.
looking into my crystall ball............I see a Lumagen in your future :D

Marquee HD mod's Marquee Upgrade/re-build package
draganm is offline  
post #185 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
lol!! I see saving $$$ in Mine. By the way the Best looking DVD I have by far, it looks so good everyone who sees it on my PJ thinks it is HiDef is the Kids movie Cats & Dogs. It is just stunning, the most amazing picture.

I used one scene to test TT & VMR9 vs PDVD, and actually the image was softer, washed out (Guess I need to lower my brightness PC output vs Studio & all that) and lost detail. Go figure. I will try & findsome with a 6600gt to loan it to me for anight.

But I think when I do have the dough, I'd get a good scaler with a nice DVD player. My PJ is dialed in now I see sanline at 13ft from my screen. Never looked better :)
YONEXSP is offline  
post #186 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:00 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Clarence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Northern Virginia Projector: G90 CRT
Posts: 8,849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by YONEXSP
But I think when I do have the dough, I'd get a good scaler with a nice DVD player.
I was planning on trying a scaler to deinterlace 1080i->1080p, but it looks like it's still a pricey market with needed advancements always just on the horizon.

Here's my summary from the Video Processors forum (link)...
  • Lumagen VisionHDP (link) ($1499)
  • Crystalio VPS 2300 (link) ($2800)
  • KeyDigital HD Leeza (link) ($3299)
  • Faroudja DVP 1080 (link) ($6500)
  • DVDO iSCAN VP30 (link) ($1999)
  • NEC TheaterLink HQV (link) ($3595)

I think I'll just keep beefing up my HTPC. It's looking pretty sweet at 1080p. I'll buy a 6600GT just to see if it's any better than the quadro.
Clarence is offline  
post #187 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Phil Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by YONEXSP
Well I tried TT 2.2. whatever tonight on my HTPC (Rageon 9700 Pro) with my XG 1080i@72hz, and compared it to PowerDVD6 and did not see what all the fuss is about. Tried it at VMR9 renderless and overlay. Preffered overlay. I don;t really want to spend $200 on a new 6600GT to find that it is not that much better.
I don't want you mad at me if you buy a 6600GT and don't like it, so take this with a grain of salt: I also had a 9700 Pro and do not regret swapping it for a 6600GT. I think you want to run overlay with the 9700, and VMR9 Renderless with the 6600.

The cool thing about TT2 is the ability to use ffdshow's noise and sharpen filters.

Phil Smith
Phil Smith is offline  
post #188 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Nevere mad, except at Raster, but is it worth the $200 upgrade? I agree with the overlay comment, it is better with the ATI, but I can't access all that nice Nvidea Purevideo stuff that TT2.2 has coz I have the wrong card. I'd just love to try it head to head.
YONEXSP is offline  
post #189 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
linecircle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
YONEXSP,
it's my understanding that purevideo doesn't grant you picture quality otherwise unavailable. It is just that it does it all with the hardware. So, one could just use TT2/6600GT and have very good pq and low cpu usage, or tweak with ffdshow, dscaler, etc to also get very good pq, but totally tax their cpu. Think of it as a scaler-in-a-card :)

Also, I believe you can use the hardware acceleration, then route the output through ffdshow for a really crazy total amount of postprocessing. I haven't messed around with that very much.
linecircle is offline  
post #190 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Owww, my head hurts, all that said to me is I will lose tons of WAF ;) Kidding aside, I think even with PDVD running on my XG which looks stunning right now, I am chasing the last 1-2% improvement. Though that's half the fun lol!! but $200 notes for a little increase, hummm.

What I need is some screen captures of TT on a 6600GT vs PDVD on the same machine. I can us windows print screen to capture an imgae of TT, but PDVD does not allow that. Anyone willing to do the experiment?
YONEXSP is offline  
post #191 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Phil Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well...I changed several things at once...and it was quite a while ago...and if my memory serves me (which it rarely does)... and my 9700 Pro did look pretty good... :D

I don't want to crawfish on everything I've said previously this thread about the 6600GT, but now that I think about it more, I don't want you to do anything on the basis of what I say. My advise may not be very good. I truly did change several things in my HTPC at the same time, making it difficult to say for certain what caused the improvements. All I can say for certain is that I'm very happy my 6600GT.

Sorry I'm not of more help!

Phil Smith
Phil Smith is offline  
post #192 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark_A_W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you're not running some sort of processing (ffdshow or avisynth) then you're not getting to the 60% mark with a 9700 pro, nevermind the 98-99% mark.

FWIW on my 9500 pro I use Zoomplayer with the Dscaler5 dvd decoder, ffdshow resize (lanzcos, parameter=2) to 1920 x 1080 with luma sharpen=1.3. VMR9 Windowless, and Reclock audio renderer for smooth playback.

I've never seen a 6600GT (and wouldn't use purevideo for DVD anyway - the only deinterlacing I need for DVD is weave), but I am very happy with my DVD (and HD ts file) image.

You can do this for $20 (for Zoomplayer), before you spend $200.

If you have TheaterTek already then you just need to spend 1/2 hour configuring ffdshow and reclock, and spend 0$.

Loving my Electric Bike!!
Mark_A_W is offline  
post #193 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 05:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
linecircle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by YONEXSP
What I need is some screen captures of TT on a 6600GT vs PDVD on the same machine. I can us windows print screen to capture an imgae of TT, but PDVD does not allow that. Anyone willing to do the experiment?
I think this experiment will depend heavily on the source. You'd need something tricky to deinterlace, and lower res so the scaling will have some work to do. I'm not sure if it's possible to accurately freezeframe in those progs either :(
linecircle is offline  
post #194 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 06:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W
If you're not running some sort of processing (ffdshow or avisynth) then you're not getting to the 60% mark with a 9700 pro, nevermind the 98-99% mark.

FWIW on my 9500 pro I use Zoomplayer with the Dscaler5 dvd decoder, ffdshow resize (lanzcos, parameter=2) to 1920 x 1080 with luma sharpen=1.3. VMR9 Windowless, and Reclock audio renderer for smooth playback.

I've never seen a 6600GT (and wouldn't use purevideo for DVD anyway - the only deinterlacing I need for DVD is weave), but I am very happy with my DVD (and HD ts file) image.

You can do this for $20 (for Zoomplayer), before you spend $200.

If you have TheaterTek already then you just need to spend 1/2 hour configuring ffdshow and reclock, and spend 0$.

hey Mark, is it possible to save in a file the settings from ffdshow? If so send me yours so I can try them with TT. Your advice on 1080i@72 for my XG with perfect by the way. I'm leaving it that, it looks stunning.

With my new tubes, redone G2's and colour balance I am so happy right now. Thinking that it can get even better is sweet. People come over now & their jaws drop, and these are guys with 720p digitals. Honeslty a well setup CRT is just amazing compared to the raft of 720p digitals. I am sure the Ruby is the same if not better focus wise at least. But at $9000 vs what I paid for my XG, it's a no brainer.
YONEXSP is offline  
post #195 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 06:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark_A_W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hmmm....not really, but I'll help as best I can.

Also, my ffdshow settings are limited by my processor (Athlon 2400+).
If I had a better processor I'd use different settings :)

So, what's your processor?

You may also need some specific TT/ffdshow advice, but I'll try.

Loving my Electric Bike!!
Mark_A_W is offline  
post #196 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 06:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
In TT it only shows ffdshow for MPEG-4, am I using the wrong version or something?
YONEXSP is offline  
post #197 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 06:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Smith
I truly did change several things in my HTPC at the same time, making it difficult to say for certain what caused the improvements. All I can say for certain is that I'm very happy my 6600GT.
I've seen your 6600 GT and some others as well as a few of the ATI cards. I think the difference is noticable. I believe Vern also felt there was a pretty big difference between the two.

Dave
Person99 is offline  
post #198 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
ohhh, hate you guys, now I feel I have to get a 6600gt now lol!! I just tried TT in overlay mode with ffdshow, and I can't see any real difference with PDVD6. I understand that the 6600 outputs at a higher voltage & wotnot to the ATI as well. Ahh heck, bugger there goes another $270cdn lol!!!
YONEXSP is offline  
post #199 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:02 PM
Senior Member
 
crt nuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kitchener , Ontario down the road from old Electrohome plant
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
I was planning on trying a scaler to deinterlace 1080i->1080p, but it looks like it's still a pricey market with needed advancements always just on the horizon.

Here's my summary from the Video Processors forum (link)...
  • Lumagen VisionHDP (link) ($1499)
  • Crystalio VPS 2300 (link) ($2800)
  • KeyDigital HD Leeza (link) ($3299)
  • Faroudja DVP 1080 (link) ($6500)
  • DVDO iSCAN VP30 (link) ($1999)
  • NEC TheaterLink HQV (link) ($3595)

I think I'll just keep beefing up my HTPC. It's looking pretty sweet at 1080p. I'll buy a 6600GT just to see if it's any better than the quadro.

Don't forget the Focus Enhancements CS range. I am pretty pleased with mine, specially the download resolutions bit. My nickel's worth
crt nuts is offline  
post #200 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Mark XP3200+ 400FSB CPU with 1GIG Ram
YONEXSP is offline  
post #201 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
linecircle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
$270 cdn? oi, keep shopping around! they should not be that much.
linecircle is offline  
post #202 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark_A_W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, I'll stick with the same settings/version I use and send it all to you.

BTW, they all output 0.7v - the Nvidia may handle a long cable run better (Current? Closer to 75ohm impedance?), but they are all 0.7v.

Loving my Electric Bike!!
Mark_A_W is offline  
post #203 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Phil Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
I've seen your 6600 GT and some others as well as a few of the ATI cards. I think the difference is noticable. I believe Vern also felt there was a pretty big difference between the two.
I forgot about that. Vern did think highly of the nvidia cards, and Vern really knows his stuff. I think he went from a 9800 Pro to a 7800GT(?). Ashame he doesn't chime in on this thread.

Phil Smith
Phil Smith is offline  
post #204 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Just took some screen shots,

I had to adjust the saturation in TT to get it to look more normal, as it is set to -41 by default & it was to washed out.
YONEXSP is offline  
post #205 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Just took some screen shots,

I had to adjust the saturation in TT to get it to look more normal, as it is set to -41 by default & it was to washed out.
One was taken using TT2.2 with ffdshow, and the other was with PDVD6
YONEXSP is offline  
post #206 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:46 PM
Senior Member
 
Budget Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Australia NSW
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't think it is the purevideo stuff that makes the GT look so good, the desktop looks better on the GT than on the 9800. The output from the GT is just so amazingly clean and clear, I dunno about the onboard processing and so on, but everything looked a lot better, DVD, HD .ts files, WMV-HD all looked a lot better when I swapped the cards over.
I agree though, if you are not using FFDShow/avisynth filters at all, then you are not getting anywhere near the best image from DVD that you could.

But really for me the GT wasn't just about DVD, it was about much better picture all round.
Budget Pete is offline  
post #207 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 07:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark_A_W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can't argue with that :)

The problem is to buy an AGP video card now is madness. AGP is dead.

So Ken and I (with AGP mobo's) would really need to buy mobo/processor/video card...not so cheap now. Ken's processor has some legs left, but mine is a dinosaur.

So it's A$700+.... so I'm staying put for a while, there's projectors out there that I don't own yet, can't waste money on a PC :)

Loving my Electric Bike!!
Mark_A_W is offline  
post #208 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 08:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
v1rtu0s1ty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: n0rth3rn 1ll1n01s
Posts: 3,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I also took some screenshots from my 6600GT. I ripped the "The Incredibles" as .iso image and moved it over to my mythtv htpc box. I also played the original dvd from my panasonic dvd player. The color settings of my mitsubishi hdtv for DTV and Comp-1 are the same but was really wondering why the color in Comp-1 where the DVD panasonic player is connected is lousy. Could be a cheap player. :D

My htpc is connected to DTV port using RGBHV interface. The panasonic dvd player is connected to Y-Pb-Pr interface on Comp-1. The quality of this cartoon is awesome. I should have captured the intermission cartoons especially the color red cars logo. I can see pixelization on the edges of the logo in my dvd player but not via my htpc.

Mythtv htpc screenshot
http://restricted.dyndns.org/6600GT.png

Panasonic dvd player screenshot
http://restricted.dyndns.org/panasonicdvd.png
v1rtu0s1ty is offline  
post #209 of 385 Old 01-09-2006, 09:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
YONEXSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Newmarket, Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I also find using the 'Boost Analog vibrance' option in Powerstrip with my ATI really helps a lot with my picture quality. I know probably should not do that, but it works :)

Also, noticed tonight TT2.2 has Gamma control, PDVD6 does not, so TT it is, as this is a big plus in my book.

K./
YONEXSP is offline  
post #210 of 385 Old 01-10-2006, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Person99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 5,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty
mythtv htpc box.
If I were to ever get swayed into HTPC, I would rather do a Myth box than anything else. The problem I have is those really in the know have told me that because of the lack of availablity of some software on Linux, you simply cannot get as good of playback as you can on a well set up Windows box. Other Myth guys I've talked to have agreed with this, but thought it was worth sacrificing a bit of quality to use Myth. Have you don't any head to head against Windows/TT/6600GT optomized set ups?

As an aside, the display and source look somewhat calibrated in the screen shot. In the screen shot of the Panny, the display is way off. You really would need to calibrate the source and display to see how good that could be.

Dave
Person99 is offline  
Closed Thread CRT Projectors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off