rajdude's Ampro 4200 setup and troubleshooting threads - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 464 Old 01-12-2006, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Hi tse,
I cannot locate two sections (static and dynamic) of this board on the schematic you posted.

This board drives a focus magnet with only one winding. An earlier post I said something about two windings but that is for the 36, 43, 4600 projectors. My mistake.

I can see ICs (AD633) which take the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input (and also something labeled R,G and B) and are driving the LM675 Power amps for each of R, G & B magnets. But that's about all.

The R, G, and B are the static signals.

Are these amps (LM675) for the dynamic or the static focus?

The LM675s do both. Static and dynamic.

Where are the other amps?

Also the daughter board sends output to J1 and are labelled:

+IM
+40 V
-IM

What is the + & - IM going to?

I'll have to check the schematic. Don't remember off the top of my head. The problem with your board appears to be the power supply (daughter bd).
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post #182 of 464 Old 01-12-2006, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post


This board drives a focus magnet with only one winding. An earlier post I said something about two windings but that is for the 36, 43, 4600 projectors. My mistake.

OK, but does that make this type of focus magnet less accurate than those who have two windings?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post


The R, G, and B are the static signals.

OK, what about the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input to the ICs (AD633). Is that Dynamic? Why are they labelled "Bow" instead of "Dyn" or something similar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post


I'll have to check the schematic. Don't remember off the top of my head. The problem with your board appears to be the power supply (daughter bd).


As I troubleshoot it, the first thing I am doing is try to understand what this daughter board does. I hear from you that it is a power supply....sounds simple enough and I can see it generates + 40 volts for the LM 675s, but don't understand where the + & - IM are going to. Let me know when you find out what those + & - IM connections are feeding and what is their use?

Thanks again & thanks for being patient with all my (numerous) questions!

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #183 of 464 Old 01-13-2006, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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A few updates

Focus Board issues:

I checked the Focus board's numbers, yes the circuit is the same as the schematic tse posted - 880970. Thanks tse!


Image Width Issues:

I also checked Powerstrip, that is able to increase the width of the image on the raster. Also it can center it without using the PJ's phase conrol. Cool!

Convergence Board Issues:

With the registration off, the convergence amp is absolutely cool to touch. With reg on, all the ICs are at the same temp.

I have another question:

Can a Convergence amp board from a 3600 fit into a 4200?

They look very similar to each other, just a couple of capacitors are different.

From 3600: (I have the schematic)
Board : 65333-01 Rev A
Ckt : 81010-01

From 4200: (Anyone has a schematic for this one?)
Board : 65248 RevA
Ckt : 880949

Thanks
Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #184 of 464 Old 01-13-2006, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

OK, but does that make this type of focus magnet less accurate than those who have two windings?

Nope. Perhaps a little less efficient. It takes a little more power to do the static focus this way.


OK, what about the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input to the ICs (AD633). Is that Dynamic? Why are they labelled "Bow" instead of "Dyn" or something similar.


The signals have a "bow" shape, actually a parabola. One is at the horizontal frequency the other vertical.



As I troubleshoot it, the first thing I am doing is try to understand what this daughter board does. I hear from you that it is a power supply....sounds simple enough and I can see it generates + 40 volts for the LM 675s, but don't understand where the + & - IM are going to. Let me know when you find out what those + & - IM connections are feeding and what is their use?

Thanks again & thanks for being patient with all my (numerous) questions!

-Rajiv

The + & -IN nodes are the power input. The AC power from the wall socket is rectified (doubled for 115VAC) and filtered to 300VDC. That 300VDC is connected across the -IN and +IN.
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post #185 of 464 Old 01-13-2006, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again tse!

Do you also have the schematic for this circuit: 80949
It is a registration amp board.

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #186 of 464 Old 01-13-2006, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Folks ,
does anyone have the schematic for this Ampro circuit: 80949
It is a registration/convergence amp board.

-RM

-Rajiv
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post #187 of 464 Old 01-13-2006, 11:00 AM
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Outside of people with access to Ampro factory literature like Elite Video (or maybe tse), I don't think you'll find a schematic for a board particular to the 4200. Ampro never produced a repair/service type manual for the 4200 like they did for the 2000/4000 and 4300/4600 models.

Sometimes, rather than troubleshoot something like a small power supply circuit, I'll just replace all the usual suspect parts like capacitors and semi-conductors. The Ampro parts are usually pretty common and cheap, and it's quicker.

Ray
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post #188 of 464 Old 01-13-2006, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Cendroski View Post

Outside of people with access to Ampro factory literature like Elite Video (or maybe tse), I don't think you'll find a schematic for a board particular to the 4200. Ampro never produced a repair/service type manual for the 4200 like they did for the 2000/4000 and 4300/4600 models.

Sometimes, rather than troubleshoot something like a small power supply circuit, I'll just replace all the usual suspect parts like capacitors and semi-conductors. The Ampro parts are usually pretty common and cheap, and it's quicker.

Ray


You are right Ray,
But this board is not the board which conked out. This is the convergence amp (see issue above)

I just hope tse has a schematic and posts it here.

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #189 of 464 Old 01-14-2006, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Bump as a reminder to tse.

I hope he has the schematic.

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #190 of 464 Old 01-14-2006, 10:10 PM
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Buddy, I'm sorry. This one turned up a blank. When Ampro went bankrupt alot of stuff got thrown in the dumpster before someone that gave a crap showed up on their own time to try to save stuff. You wouldn't believe it. Everyones personal records were thrown in a pile on the floor and alot of engineering stuff was lost. I looked through all the old drawings and couldn't find anything on the 4200 convergence amplifier. I hope there is someone out there that has copies of it.
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post #191 of 464 Old 01-14-2006, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I studied the convergence amp board of my 4200, it looks very similar to the convergence amp board on the 2000. I have the convergence amp' schematic for the 2000.

I am thinking of replacing my 4200's board with a 3600's.

There are two differences I see between them (the 4200's and the 3600's). Here is what on the newer board:-

(1.) The power-supply section is a little different, but it still seems to supply +- 25 volts to the LM675s.

But, I do not understand what that circuit is doing though, it seems to take +- 25 V and output something labeled +-25 SW . And that is going to the power supply inputs of the Op-amps (LM675)

(2.) The other difference is that the convergence signal goes to the inverting input of the Op-amp (LM657). This means that the output will be inverted, right? But later the connectors going to the Yokes are reversed. I understand that this effectively reverses the signals.....hence making the signals the same as that coming out of the older board.

Anyway the bottom line is can I swap the boards without any problem??

-Rajiv
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post #192 of 464 Old 01-14-2006, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for looking tse, if you got a minute, please look into my above question. For reference, here are the two schematics I am looking at...

The new Board:
(from x600)
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/RegistrationAmplifierModule(81010A).jpg

The old board (from 4200) taken from the 2000 service manual
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/2000_reg_amp_board.jpg

That manual can be found here:
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/Ampro...ice_Manual.pdf

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #193 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 03:37 AM
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If you need better scans of the service manual let me know the page numbers so I can put them up on my Ampro page, the pdf you linked to is possibly the worst quality scan I have ever seen.

Just renovated an Ampro 4200G, the Spellman just needs a 10nF on G2 and it's good to go.
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post #194 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion^Swamp View Post

If you need better scans of the service manual let me know the page numbers so I can put them up on my Ampro page, the pdf you linked to is possibly the worst quality scan I have ever seen.


HA HA, you are right, I got these PDFs in a CD which came with the PJ.
Right now, I dont need any scans, but thanks!

BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?

Also ever thought of swapping parts with newer Ampros (for better performance)?

I am thinking of swapping the convergence board with a x600's board. Looks pretty much the same but I am still waiting for tse to verify (just to be 100% sure.) I hope I do not blow up the PJ if I test-swap the boards.

tse, what is the worse that can happen? The registration won't work right...right?? or can I also damage some other circuits?

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #195 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 09:36 AM
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[quote=rajdude]HA HA, you are right, I got these PDFs in a CD which came with the PJ.
Right now, I dont need any scans, but thanks!

BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?

Also ever thought of swapping parts with newer Ampros (for better performance)?

I am thinking of swapping the convergence board with a x600's board. Looks pretty much the same but I am still waiting for tse to verify (just to be 100% sure.) I hope I do not blow up the PJ if I test-swap the boards.

tse, what is the worse that can happen? The registration won't work right...right?? or can I also damage some other circuits?

-Rajiv[/QUOTE

While attempting board transfusions, you may get board incompatability error messages. That used to happen between even early and late model 2000/4000 projectors. I think the CPU looks for compatable hardware while it's booting up. It may not recognize the board and send the error message.

Chip

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #196 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

While attempting board transfusions, you may get board incompatability error messages. That used to happen between even early and late model 2000/4000 projectors. I think the CPU looks for compatable hardware while it's booting up. It may not recognize the board and send the error message.

Chip


You are right, Chip, but from what I can see in the schematic, this board does not have any "brains" which will enable the CPU to recognise that it is not the correct one.

All it has is a bunch of simple Power-Amps and a power supply section which is feeding them.

For the CPU to "know" if it is the right board or not, don't you think it should have some digital circuits on it? This board has none.

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #197 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 11:16 AM
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Hey raj, I've followed this thread with some interest. If you don't mind me asking since I didn't see it in the thread, what are your chasis hours? I just picked up a fairly hard-used 4300 so I'm sure I will be going through a lot of what you've had to endure

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #198 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

Hey raj, I've followed this thread with some interest. If you don't mind me asking since I didn't see it in the thread, what are your chasis hours? I just picked up a fairly hard-used 4300 so I'm sure I will be going through a lot of what you've had to endure


Well the CPU was glitched and the battery was dead...then when you eventually replace the battery...the hrs get all garbled up. Hence I really do not know.

But the tubes are a perfect 10 across all three, (the main reason I bought it) .......from the looks of it this PJ was not used much. There is no dust anywhere inside.... OR maybe it was not working properly so no-one used it....OR maybe someone replaced the tubes before selling it. One thing is for sure...the blue tube has been replaced. That means it WAS used....right?

...i really do not know the history of this PJ. It is all garbled up.




Well, going back to your question....I do not think that your PJ will give you such a hard time as well. It all just "depends".

Just DO NOT switch it on and off rapidly...that (apparantly) caused my focus board to blow off.




Other than that it is not too bad (until now). The bottom line is ...it still works...the astig is done, but convergence amp board overheats (bad heatsink design + I am probably using too much adjustments) and the focus board's gone.

I am nearing the end of my tether here! HA HA!

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #199 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?

The slightly darker, but also burnt-to-a-crisp kind:
http://dion.swamp.dk/pics/ht/ampro42...rnt-c-element/

I have thought about upgrading the HVPS to a non-flaky one, I have one HVPS that gave up the ghost as I was modding in more G2 capacitance (possibly just a bad connection) and one that works, but I'll never be quite happy with the HVPS unless it's either a better model or I have a spare.

Just renovated an Ampro 4200G, the Spellman just needs a 10nF on G2 and it's good to go.
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post #200 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion^Swamp View Post

The slightly darker, but also burnt-to-a-crisp kind:
http://dion.swamp.dk/pics/ht/ampro42...rnt-c-element/

I have thought about upgrading the HVPS to a non-flaky one, I have one HVPS that gave up the ghost as I was modding in more G2 capacitance (possibly just a bad connection) and one that works, but I'll never be quite happy with the HVPS unless it's either a better model or I have a spare.


Actually what I meant was to ask you which "replacement C-element" did you get.

I have seen those pictures earlier and I know that you got those fried c-elements with your PJ originally. You say on your website:
"Got it: Green C-element, from Graham."

so I do not know if you are aware that two shades of green C-elements exist. Clarence told me that the darker green is the more accurate one. Thus I wanted to know if you got the darker or the lighter green element.

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #201 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi tse,
did you get a chance to check out my board swapping issue...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6923625

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #202 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Well the CPU was glitched and the battery was dead...then when you eventually replace the battery... DO NOT switch it on and off rapidly...that (apparantly) caused my focus board to blow off.

it is not too bad (until now). ...it still works...the astig is done, but convergence amp board overheats (bad heatsink design + I am probably using too much adjustments) and the focus board's gone.

I am nearing the end of my tether here! HA HA!

-Rajiv

Oh Rajiv... hurry up and part the damn thing out! I'll take the tubes and the HVPS

-Mark

What did I do with my time before I found AVS?
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post #203 of 464 Old 01-16-2006, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

I studied the convergence amp board of my 4200, it looks very similar to the convergence amp board on the 2000. I have the convergence amp' schematic for the 2000.

I am thinking of replacing my 4200's board with a 3600's.

There are two differences I see between them (the 4200's and the 3600's). Here is what on the newer board:-

(1.) The power-supply section is a little different, but it still seems to supply +- 25 volts to the LM675s.

But, I do not understand what that circuit is doing though, it seems to take +- 25 V and output something labeled +-25 SW . And that is going to the power supply inputs of the Op-amps (LM675)

That circuit does two things. First it switches power on and off to the amplifiers. 55 code. Second it's a current limit for the LVPS. It only allows a certain maximum amount of power draw. If an overload happens for more than half a minute or so the thermostat will disconnect power from the amps. After things cool down it will allow power to return.

(2.) The other difference is that the convergence signal goes to the inverting input of the Op-amp (LM657). This means that the output will be inverted, right? But later the connectors going to the Yokes are reversed. I understand that this effectively reverses the signals.....hence making the signals the same as that coming out of the older board.

I think you are right.

Anyway the bottom line is can I swap the boards without any problem??

Ok, here's where there may be a problem. Are the registration coils for the two models the same inductance? They might be but I don't remember. If they are different the compensation for the amps will be wrong and the output will be distorted. I don't think it will blow-up but it might not work right.
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post #204 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Actually what I meant was to ask you which "replacement C-element" did you get.

Ah, right, well the old element was the darker kind, the new one was slightly lighter.

I don't mind getting less accurate greens, because I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.

Just renovated an Ampro 4200G, the Spellman just needs a 10nF on G2 and it's good to go.
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post #205 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice! Thanks for the insight tse, I dont know what I'd do without you with this Ampro PJ! You and others here are the only things enabling me to hold on to this PJ, otherwise I'd have parted it out long back
Thanks again! Ok now back to the issues...

Board Swap Issue #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post


That circuit does two things. First it switches power on and off to the amplifiers. 55 code. Second it's a current limit for the LVPS. It only allows a certain maximum amount of power draw. If an overload happens for more than half a minute or so the thermostat will disconnect power from the amps. After things cool down it will allow power to return.

Ya, I could understand that it is doing the '55 code' thing, but could not see that power draw limiting feature. Thanks! It seems to me that they may have upgraded that feature on the newer board (since that board has more complicated circuitry in that section)

BUT...Here is the potential problem...
I wonder if the parameters of the "power draw limit" are still the same. Because if they are not... that circuit may allow more power to be drawn (than what the LVPS can handle) and hence kill the LVPS.... right? UNLESS the LVPS is of the same power rating between the 4200 and the 3600/4600. THEN the things should be fine.

Does anyone know the differences of power / voltage ratings between a LVPS of a 4200 and a 3600/4600?


Board Swap Issue #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post


Ok, here's where there may be a problem. Are the registration coils for the two models the same inductance? They might be but I don't remember. If they are different the compensation for the amps will be wrong and the output will be distorted. I don't think it will blow-up but it might not work right.

The values of components around the amps look the pretty much the same to me. It seems that a simple and 'safe' test would be to just swap the boards and see if the registration works right or not. If there is little chance that it will blow up, I may want to take the risk here.

But first, what do you think about the above issue?


-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #206 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtmelvin View Post

Oh Rajiv... hurry up and part the damn thing out! I'll take the tubes and the HVPS

-Mark


HA HA, not so soon buddy!
First I have the exhaust all of my options...and it is good to have tse here at AVS. Maybe this PJ will work properly after all.

Even if it works for a couple of years after I get it working...I'm a happy camper.

-Rajiv
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post #207 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion^Swamp View Post

Ah, right, well the old element was the darker kind, the new one was slightly lighter.

I don't mind getting less accurate greens, because I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.


Ok, thanks for the update.

Now the problematic thing is...
My PJ already has a good Green C-Element. But I may want the darker green one.

But first ...How do I figure out that the existing C-element is the darker one OR the lighter one.

Most probably it is the darker one since your 4200 came with a darker green C-element. Right?

-Rajiv
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post #208 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 11:27 AM
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One thing to keep in mind... The green "C" element reduces your light output 10 - 15%.
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post #209 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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tse,
looks like you are online.

Did you get a chance to read my response to the board swap issue (see it above or click here)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6937330

I was just wondering about the LVPS power draw issue.

-RM

-Rajiv
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post #210 of 464 Old 01-17-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

...and it is good to have tse here at AVS.

THAT is a true statement. We are very lucky to have him here sharing his knowledge.

-Mark

What did I do with my time before I found AVS?
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