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post #1 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone,
I recently acquired another PJ an Ampro 4200G
It is in good condition with minty tubes. Due to the good tubes I have high hopes for this PJ. This thread will follow the setup of that PJ from scratch.

I'm gonna need some help from fellow AVSers as new issues crop up,.. and with Ampro PJs reputation, I am sure there will be lot of issues!

Thanks for reading and responding!

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #2 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the manuals for 2000, 3000, and 4000 and 4600 and 3600. I can't find a service manual for 4200G. I hear there were no manuals but it is true?


Also, I already know these links, does anymore have more information on these PJs?

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...threadid=86432
http://dion.swamp.dk/ampro4200g.html
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #3 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone,
Friday night, I spent a good amount of time with this PJ. I fired it up and saw that it won't do anything; I mean it will not accept any commands from the remote. After tinkering with it for a full 2 hrs I finally realized that it maybe in the executive mode ! I totally forgot that Most PJs have a service man mode so as to set them up. Ampro starts up in the "executive mode" THAT is why no buttons are active at power up!! The manual did not tell me to get out of Exec mode first! Or maybe I did not read correctly, after all it was 2 AM in the morning!

I FINALLY learnt (after wasting a couple of hrs) that you have to put 909 CODE to get the pj respond.

Here is the first issue (already)

Issue #1
The projector's help menu and test patterns do not seem to be working properly. (or maybe I am not doing something right)

When I press the menu button, (9 times out of 10) the menu does not show up. Instead I get 2-3 words at the bottom right corner. It looks something like this

enu
OBJECT

Looks like the menu does not come up properly. It looks like there may be something wrong with the help menu/test pattern generator board.

Issue #2
Also the input image does not show up like 70% of times. Do you have to press a button to do it? I have selected the RGB input and selected channel 1.

All help is highly appreciated!
-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #4 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 08:23 AM
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Two things. Your memory battery is probably bad, the black rectangular block on the CPU board. It should be at 3.6 volts. Anything under 3.2 or so can cause glitching. Change that first. I have stock if you can't find them, they are starting to get hard to find, but they should be out there.

2) Get rid of all of your blanking. That will cause loss of pix or menus or test patterns. IN each mode (signal, help, test pattern), turn the blanking to min/max, whatever setting is appropriate for the 4 sides. THe 2000 manual is about the same as the 4200. The 4600 manual will give you some extra menu and code functions not outlined in the 2000.

www.curtpalme.com - CRT tech info

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post #5 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:10 AM
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Hi Raj-

See if this thread helps...
Ampro HELP text not displaying

-Clarence
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post #6 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:28 AM
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Clarence, you are the GOD of old posts.

Heck, I can't remember what I posted yesterday..

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post #7 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

Two things. Your memory battery is probably bad, the black rectangular block on the CPU board. It should be at 3.6 volts. Anything under 3.2 or so can cause glitching. Change that first. I have stock if you can't find them, they are starting to get hard to find, but they should be out there.

2) Get rid of all of your blanking. That will cause loss of pix or menus or test patterns. IN each mode (signal, help, test pattern), turn the blanking to min/max, whatever setting is appropriate for the 4 sides. THe 2000 manual is about the same as the 4200. The 4600 manual will give you some extra menu and code functions not outlined in the 2000.

Thanks for the tips Curt! I will check the voltage tonight.
Quick Qs
(1). The CPU board is the board on the extreme left, if viewing the pj from the backside (the one where the remote plugs in) right?

(2). Do I have to take out the CPU board to check the voltage of the battery?

(3). I have also got this error at least two times, mostly when I was re-starting the PJ again and again.

"ERROR 20 AT 4e
CHANNEL 77"


Any tips?

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #8 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Hi Raj-

See if this thread helps...
Ampro HELP text not displaying

-Clarence


Thanks Clarence, that helps. But if you already set the blanking shouldn't it be all set now?? Unless it is losing the memory (like Curt said).

Also, when you had this pj, was it stable? I mean whenever you pressed help, did the menu come up everytime, reliably?

I am also not getting the image (I am feeding) to show up everytime I switch on the PJ. The relays do not click and it seems the tubes do not turn on OR the PJ does not sync to the input (I can hear the loud high frequency noise whenever the picture is about to come on)

-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #9 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:43 AM
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1) Yes
2) No, with pointy test leads you can piuck off the two battery solder points without removing the board (but feel free to..)

Remove AC power as there's a continuous 5 volts on that board. It will nuke the CPU if the board is removed with power applied. (or at least it can).

3) Data communication error between boards. The battery might cure that.

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post #10 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:51 AM
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I'm pretty sure once I set the blanking, then it persisted the next time I powered up and used the same source resolution.

I know I had to do it 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure that was only when setting up different inputs.

When you power up without getting a picture, does the remote properly indicate the model number?

I never saw anything like "ERROR 20 AT 4e CHANNEL 77". Does it say that on the screen or on the remote? The manual says "ERROR # AT # (I2C ERROR)" Possible cause: Communication failure between internal modules.
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post #11 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 09:56 AM
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post #12 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 10:00 AM
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4E= Registration
ERROR 20 = Slave to write data address
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post #13 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

I'm pretty sure once I set the blanking, then it persisted the next time I powered up and used the same source resolution.

I know I had to do it 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure that was only when setting up different inputs.

Does "setting up different inputs" mean (say) you were playing your HTPC, but then later you hooked up your DVD player? Hence you had to setup the blanking again?

But again, I have seen the menu work properly at least 2-3 times. But I could not go all the way through (due to you know, take the dog out, have dinner, etc etc ). When I came back and re-started the PJ, the menu won't come up at all ! I'm like ...hey this thing was working properly 10 minutes ago!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

When you power up without getting a picture, does the remote properly indicate the model number?

Yes, and if I do a system status code (it is 30-CODE I guess) it says everything is fine. Then it just says RGB input, Channel but does not display anything.

Of course this happens intermittently. 10% of times it works properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

I never saw anything like "ERROR 20 AT 4e CHANNEL 77". Does it say that on the screen or on the remote? The manual says "ERROR # AT # (I2C ERROR)" Possible cause: Communication failure between internal modules.


It displays that message on the LCD. The screen is totally blank.

-Rajiv
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post #14 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post


4E= Registration
ERROR 20 = Slave to write data address

Thanks for scraping up the info

-RM

-Rajiv
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post #15 of 464 Old 10-31-2005, 12:32 PM
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Of course, I have no idea what "Slave to write data address" is supposed to mean, but it's probably a loose connector or like Curt suggested, maybe a weak battery.

What's the part # on the Registration board?

Quote:


Does "setting up different inputs" mean (say) you were playing your HTPC, but then later you hooked up your DVD player? Hence you had to setup the blanking again?

Yes... if I switched from PC 1280x1024, to HD DVR 1080i/720p, then to DVD, etc
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post #16 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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OK!!
I am in a good mood today because the Ampro put a reasonable picture yesterday night. Now I can see what new picture tubes on a CRT PJ can do.

Action #1 (battery voltage)
Curt, I checked the voltage of the Battery. It is kinda strange, but I am getting 0.36 volts across the terminals. After running the PJ for 2 hrs that voltage was still 0.38 V

Here is how I tested it.
The card was in the slot (I did not take it out) The PJ was turned off . (Even when the PJ was switched on, the voltage was the same). Please refer to the diagram below:-



Between the points
A and B it measures 0.36 volts
B to D measures 0 volts
C to D measures 0 volts
A to D measures 0 volts (not sure about this one, forgot)

Which points are the correct ones?
[added later] the points A and B are the correct ones. With reference from Curt's site
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm

The Battery says 3.5 volts Lithium on it. Isn't it supposed to be a rechargeable battery? Doesn't look like that, since even when the PJ is powered up, the battery voltage is still the same.

Also the PJ seems to retain the memory even at this low voltage, why?
[added later] actually, it does not. I confirmed this later on

Action #2 (The menu issue)
I tried the blanking, Clarence was right. My top and left blanking was at the max settings.
BUT even after I set the blanking to minimum the menu won't come up. Then I saw a code for initialize test screens in the manual. THAT did the trick. After that I also set another code, that one is right below the initialize test screens code I guess it is to reset all help screens to the default parameters.


Action # 3 (convergence)
After that I proceeded to do a full convergence. This PJ's menu driven setup is very helpful. It is a very long and tedious process but I am getting the hang of it. I did not finish it last night as it was 1 AM by the time I did the RED to GREEN convergence. I will continue tonight.

Also, I notice that the internal test patterns are very noisy. I'll try feeding an external test pattern after I go through all the help screens.

[added later] external test patterns are pristine!I'll NEVER use the internal test patterns on this again. BTW, I am usign a HTPC to feed test patterns to the PJ. The philips test pattern generator is awesome. That lets you put out dots, which the Nokia TPG does not.

Thanks for all tips.
-Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #17 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 09:19 AM
 
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R-

You have much higher pain threshold than I do.

I gave up on the whole Ampro codes thing.....

Pete
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post #18 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthZ View Post

R-

You have much higher pain threshold than I do.

I gave up on the whole Ampro codes thing.....

Pete

Pete,
Actually, I find them pretty straighforward. All you need is a cheat-sheet. I think (sometimes) it gets work done faster than going through a set of menus like on my Sony.

I also wonder why some people talk about the dreaded "incorrect direction" error message. You merely have to use the STEP and the TEST to go forward and backward respectively through the menu system.

(I'd agree that having to press TEST to go "backward" is kinda stupid but once you memorise it the routine becomes second nature, like driving a car. )

Overall I like the guided setup system, if only the test patterns were accurate and sharp. OR maybe my PJ's test patterns are not good.

Other Ampro owners, are your test patterns sharp??

I will post screenshots tonight to show what I am talking about here.

-RM

-Rajiv
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post #19 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 12:23 PM
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Clarence,

"Slave Write to ..." is an I2C error. I2C is an 2 wire serial interconnect bus. Basically in the case discussed above, the CPU tried to set up one of the registration control DACs and failed to get the command acknowledged.

rajdude,

The I2C bus is strung all over the ampro chassis. Get yourself some good contact cleaner and clean every plug and wire harness you can. The 2 wire connections that are not part of the video signal chain are the i2c bus. A dirty/partial contact anywhere in there can cause the i2c errors.

The ampro i2c bus isn't clocked too high... but it does go all over the chassis. Cleaning up the contacts will make the covergance _much_ more stable.

If you keep getting i2c errors I can point you at some circuits to build and i2c sniffer the hooks to a PC parallel port. That can shed all kinds of light on i2c glitches.

--
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post #20 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 12:51 PM
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To follow up... god I hate doing this....

rajdude,

make sure your source is on and you are on the right channel before entering help->setup or the genlock can be way off. In any case it will be off. At least on the 2300, 2600HD, and 4000 I have seen, the testpaterns are not great.

If you can use something else as a test pattern, do so. Skip the guided setup and walk through the the setup steps found in the service manual. All guided setup does is flip the registration board on and off, and really make flipping between pincusion/keystone/horizontal/vertical a real PITA.

Also get the magnetics right.... longer term stability of the convergence is on these Ampros is much better than their reputation.

--
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post #21 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phooka View Post

The I2C bus is strung all over the ampro chassis. Get yourself some good contact cleaner and clean every plug and wire harness you can. The 2 wire connections that are not part of the video signal chain are the i2c bus. A dirty/partial contact anywhere in there can cause the i2c errors.
Nick

Thanks for the tip, Nick
yesterday night I did not get that error even once (knock on wood ) but if it happens regularly I will look into the possibility of cleaning the contacts.

BTW, what does the I2C bus connectors look like and where are they located?

Thanks
Rajiv

-Rajiv
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post #22 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phooka View Post

To follow up... god I hate doing this....

snip
If you can use something else as a test pattern, do so.
snip

Yes, tonight I will hook up the HTPC (lets say it is just a wanna-be HTPC) and use the Nokia test generator. Any tips on what the contrast setting should be while I am displaying the convergence patterns so as to prevent burn-in (for a reasonably long time)??

Quote:
Originally Posted by phooka View Post

Also get the magnetics right.... longer term stability of the convergence is on these Ampros is much better than their reputation.

Yes, I will do that too. I read the Guy Kuo manual, I understand that the focus and magnetics are to be tweaked first; then comes convergence.

Thanks again

-Rajiv
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post #23 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 2 questions for AVS member -- Dion^Swamp

Question 1
I see that you changed the belly fans of the 4200G with 120mm ones. I'd like to do that too. But how about the current draw? Does a bigger replacement fan cause any issues with any sensors? (I do not know if this PJ has sensors which detect if a fan has failed)


Question 2
Also do you really have to take everything out of the the chasis and disassmble it completely (like the pictures on your website) to enlarge the hole for the 120MM fans?

For more air-flow, did you consider adding fans where you made 4 holes (on the top of the case?)

-Rajiv
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post #24 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 05:26 PM
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I have never seen the inside of a 4200. Going from the 2600 and 2300 that shared lots of boards with the 4200 the main connections that carry the i2c bus that I have found are:

- CPU board connectors (the bottom of the cpu card to the backplane)
- the RGB1 card connectors to the backplane
- a 20 or so pin ribbon cable from the backplane to the registration board
- the 2 wire connections from the PLL (the metal encased subboard on the registration tray) to the focus modulator board

While you are at it clean the RGB connections from RGB1 card to the neckboards. Since the video preamps are on the neckboards, these connections really need to be solid to avoid noise.

Basically figure the machine is ~10 years old. There is going to be oxidation on all the contacts. Cleaning can't hurt -- unless you fail to connect everything up properly

good luck

--
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post #25 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 06:16 PM
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"Other Ampro owners, are your test patterns sharp??

I will post screenshots tonight to show what I am talking about here.

-RM "

Press "4" then "test" for internal test patterns that are gen-locked to the external video source.

Don't expect too much, the internal test patterns never did work perfectly.
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post #26 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I just fired it up and to my dismay all the convergence I did last night is gone!!

Is there some SAVE button somewhere? I cannot find any reference in the manual. I do see a CODE to "validate and protect..."

Is this the SAVE settings option?

-RM

-Rajiv
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post #27 of 464 Old 11-01-2005, 08:31 PM
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There is no "save" function. All adjustments are saved in the "channel" that they were made in. If the battery voltage is really 0.38V like you measured, the battery is shot. Strange things are gonna happen.
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post #28 of 464 Old 11-02-2005, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

I have 2 questions for AVS member -- Dion^Swamp

Question 1
I see that you changed the belly fans of the 4200G with 120mm ones. I'd like to do that too. But how about the current draw? Does a bigger replacement fan cause any issues with any sensors? (I do not know if this PJ has sensors which detect if a fan has failed)

The normal belly fans are powered at 20V, so you need to run a new set of wires to the tiny PSU fan and hook them up there.

The PSU fan runs at 12V and has a regulator (7812 afaik) of its own that it shares with the powerled.

There is no fan sensors and they draw very little current anyway, so I had no issues changing them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Question 2
Also do you really have to take everything out of the the chasis and disassmble it completely (like the pictures on your website) to enlarge the hole for the 120MM fans?

Yes, everything must come apart to enlarge the holes otherwise you risk getting metal filings in the electronics and you don't want that.

Don't sweat taking it apart, it's very easy to do and you will probably want to take the tubes out anyway to change the glycol.

Other than not having a dog or small children in the room while doing it I'd say that there are two things that you need to be careful with: Handling the tubes and getting every single plug attached before starting it up again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

For more air-flow, did you consider adding fans where you made 4 holes (on the top of the case?)

That could be done, but I got a nice result from just putting in vents, I want to keep the noise down and I don't think you can fit any fans on the inside of the lid.

If you find the convergence tray to be too hot even after adding vents, you can probably fix it by using gruntier bellyfans, I used the quietest (and most wimpy) fans I could get my hands on.

Just renovated an Ampro 4200G, the Spellman just needs a 10nF on G2 and it's good to go.
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post #29 of 464 Old 11-02-2005, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post

There is no "save" function. All adjustments are saved in the "channel" that they were made in. If the battery voltage is really 0.38V like you measured, the battery is shot. Strange things are gonna happen.

Thanks tse,
I just ordered the battery from Allied Electronics.
https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/Pr...&DESC=LTC%2D7P

Around $15 + shipping. Strangely their website does not show the shipping costs. I even called them up, the lady told me that even she has no way to know the shipping costs!

-Rajiv
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post #30 of 464 Old 11-02-2005, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Location: Woodbridge, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion^Swamp
The normal belly fans are powered at 20V, so you need to run a new set of wires to the tiny PSU fan and hook them up there.

The PSU fan runs at 12V and has a regulator (7812 afaik) of its own that it shares with the powerled.

There is no fan sensors and they draw very little current anyway, so I had no issues changing them.
Hmm, as the power supply already has issues with heat and possibly overloading, I may want to hook up the 12 volt fans to the existing 20 V wires. I will just use a 7812 on a tiny PCB OR maybe a simple power resistor will do too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion^Swamp
Yes, everything must come apart to enlarge the holes otherwise you risk getting metal filings in the electronics and you don't want that.

Don't sweat taking it apart, it's very easy to do and you will probably want to take the tubes out anyway to change the glycol.

Other than not having a dog or small children in the room while doing it I'd say that there are two things that you need to be careful with: Handling the tubes and getting every single plug attached before starting it up again.
About taking it apart...
Well, I am REALLY worried about all those connections and me leaving one disconnected by accident and ruining the tubes or the electronics

Plus all the time involved in dismantling and putting it back CAREFULLY.

I will think of another way, but I have to do the glycol too...
Do you really have to take out the tubes for changing the glycol?

About changing the glycol
Yes, I do need to change to glycol. I found a doc with some pretty elaborate instructions. I doubt if all this needs to be done to just change to glycol. Please have a look at the attachment here and let me know how it compares with what you did to change to glycol.

(I am really concerned about all the cutting described in the doc)

I am assuming all we need to do is to open the screws and drain out the glycol and put it back it, right?
Why the Silicon caulk and all that cutting??

 

CRT fluid change.doc 29.5k . file

-Rajiv
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