Which is better? The 1292 or G70??? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 263 Old 02-04-2006, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rxv3000
do you guys with 1292's use pjcalc or the user manual to get the scheimflueg adjustments?

greg 1292 this question is directed at you mainly as I purchased you old machine.
What do you mean by : "to get the scheimflueg adjustments"? PJCalc is just for calculating the throw distance and even for that it's not accurate enough, unless you want to run with a small raster on the tube face.

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post #182 of 263 Old 02-04-2006, 09:54 PM
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Phil

I realize that I have been in retail side of electronics for 20 years and have seen my fair share of systems as well as sold and installed. Thanks for putting me in my place.

I have just took pictures of some 1080p test patterns and what is it that I should see or not see? Any advice would be helpful in understanding why it shouldn't look better than 960p. Why before the Moomee card The G70 looked like crap in 1080p using rgb at this resolution? I have switched back in fourth and am wondering if the DVI has anything to do with it. Seems odd with the RGB card the projector would't resolve this resolution. Maybe Ken could shed some light on this when he does a calibration in my area?

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post #183 of 263 Old 02-04-2006, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292
Phil

I realize that I have been in retail side of electronics for 20 years and have seen my fair share of systems as well as sold and installed. Thanks for putting me in my place.

I have just took pictures of some 1080p test patterns and what is it that I should see or not see? Any advice would be helpful in understanding why it shouldn't look better than 960p. Why before the Moomee card The G70 looked like crap in 1080p using rgb at this resolution? I have switched back in fourth and am wondering if the DVI has anything to do with it. Seems odd with the RGB card the projector would't resolve this resolution. Maybe Ken could shed some light on this when he does a calibration in my area?
Post the pics please......

Cliff
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post #184 of 263 Old 02-04-2006, 10:05 PM
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I think why we can see such an improvement in picture for the sony cards is that there is likely a simpler ( read cleaner) path for the signal.

I seem to remember Mike talking about how much 'processing' the Sonys seem to do to the signal.

Just a thought, Maybe Mike can chime in.
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post #185 of 263 Old 02-04-2006, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292
Phil

I realize that I have been in retail side of electronics for 20 years and have seen my fair share of systems as well as sold and installed. Thanks for putting me in my place.

I have just took pictures of some 1080p test patterns and what is it that I should see or not see? Any advice would be helpful in understanding why it shouldn't look better than 960p. Why before the Moomee card The G70 looked like crap in 1080p using rgb at this resolution? I have switched back in fourth and am wondering if the DVI has anything to do with it. Seems odd with the RGB card the projector would't resolve this resolution. Maybe Ken could shed some light on this when he does a calibration in my area?
There's no doubt that a DVI signal would be a "little" sharper when compared to a signal fed totally analog, but none of these things are enough to make an 8" projector resolve 1080p when setup with normal picture sizes.

The first impediment is the bandwidth of CRT projectors in general, which, even on 9" tubes, softens the picture. However, high end 9" projectors like the G90 and Barco Cine 9 have a higher bandwidth than all the 8" units I've seen.

To give you an idea of an 8" projector's resolving capability try this on your G70. Set the internal frequency to 31.4 and bring up the EM pattern. Look at the letter E and M and you will se that they're made up of little segments. Now, increase the frequency step by step with the internal frequency menu and see AT WHAT POINT you can no longer see the individual segments. That should give you an idea of why you can't actually resolve 1080p on an 8" projector. And by the way, the G70 is THE BEST of the 8" projectors. ;)

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post #186 of 263 Old 02-04-2006, 10:59 PM
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Well yes and no to the PJ calc question.

PJ calc roughs the projector in but is never perfect. In actual fact the PJ calc value generally have the projector mounted fush to the roof. For a 4:3 picture this is fine as the bottm( top) of the picture is at right angles to the projector . IE the base of the projector roughly correlates to the top of the pic.

But when you watch 16:9 the top of the picture is then some distance down from the roof. This neccesitates tilting the projector upwards so the top of the picture is at the ceiling height again.

This means the lens falpping is always out with PJ calc.

The best method to fix this is to use PJ calc to rough set the lens flapping. Then display the cross hatch and unscrew the green tube clamp bolts. Defocus the lens so the cross hatch is then 1/2 inch wide lines.

Have a close look the lens flapping error which will manifest itself as different width lines in different places on the screen. The action here is to move the green flapping rigs in oppsoition to each other until the top and bottom lines are the same width.

Lens flapping is then perfect. Refocus the green tube. and all over focus and perfect lens flapping are the result.

Now have a look at how much and in what direction you moved the green rings. The start the red tube. The rings on the red and blue will need to be adjusted so they distance between the numbers on the rings is the same as the green. Then rotate both rings together left or right until the flappings is right with the line width uniform over the screen.

Takes a while to get right but is worth it. The first time is quite hard but it gets easier.

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post #187 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Has anybody checked with Scott to make sure he means 1080p in a 16:9 configuration and not 1080p vertically in a 4:3 configuration, since what people generally mean by 1080p around here is 1920x1080 in 16:9?

--Darin
Scott has said that an 8" tube will resolve 2048x1536. It will be muddy in the corners, but fully resolved in the center. Whether all pjs can take advantage of this, I don't know nor do I suspect anyone else does either. Scott says that just touching the lens at this high a resolution can throw it out of focus.


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Originally Posted by techman707
That should give you an idea of why you can't actually resolve 1080p on an 8" projector. And by the way, the G70 is THE BEST of the 8" projectors. ;)
Have you tried it on a brand new VDC 8500? Scott used a scope to measure one off and on on pixel to get to 1080p. Maybe a new 8500 is the only projector capable of doing 1080p. I guess that would mean the G70 isn't the best.:)

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post #188 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
There's no doubt that a DVI signal would be a "little" sharper when compared to a signal fed totally analog...
Bruce,

Really? Didn't Curt and a few others find no difference between the two?

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post #189 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 11:29 AM
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Phil,
Here is what Mark Haflich had to say about the Moome card.

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post #190 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
Scott has said that an 8" tube will resolve 2048x1536. It will be muddy in the corners, but fully resolved in the center. Whether all pjs can take advantage of this, I don't know nor do I suspect anyone else does either. Scott says that just touching the lens at this high a resolution can throw it out of focus.

Have you tried it on a brand new VDC 8500? Scott used a scope to measure one off and on on pixel to get to 1080p. Maybe a new 8500 is the only projector capable of doing 1080p. I guess that would mean the G70 isn't the best.:)

Ericglo
Unless there's some new type tube and yoke design for the 8500, dream on. Besides, there's nothing that I know of that can measure screen resolution from a scope. More voo doo, "touching the lens will throw it out of focus". :rolleyes:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Smith
Bruce,

Really? Didn't Curt and a few others find no difference between the two?
There IS a subtle difference between the two, I don't know if it can be seen on a FP, but, it can be seen on a monitor.

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post #191 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
More voo doo, "touching the lens will throw it out of focus". :rolleyes:
That was a good one. :D
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post #192 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
That was a good one. :D
Opps......the heat came on and my picture just went out of focus. :p I better turn on the AC to cool it down. :D

Cliffy, you should be sitting back (watching your G70) and really laughing at this point. ;)

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post #193 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 12:25 PM
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The digital signal gets converted to RGB, it just depends on where. Either at the original source (such as an HDTV receiver) or a Moome card. Either the Moome card does a better job of digital to RGB conversion than the receiver (not likely according to what Mark says in Eric's link), or there is noticeable signal degradation in analog cabling. That's the only differences I see between the two. Right?

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post #194 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
Opps......the heat came on and my picture just went out of focus. :p I better turn on the AC to cool it down. :D

Cliffy, you should be sitting back (watching your G70) and really laughing at this point. ;)
Awwww schitt. The AC broke. NOW I'M SCREWED FOR THE SUPERBOWL!!!!!! :D

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post #195 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
What do you mean by : "to get the scheimflueg adjustments"? PJCalc is just for calculating the throw distance and even for that it's not accurate enough, unless you want to run with a small raster on the tube face.
PJcalc actually does give you lens flapping ring positions as well as throw distances Bruce

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post #196 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Johnson
PJcalc actually does give you lens flapping ring positions as well as throw distances Bruce
Anyone that needs PJCalc to tell them what position to turn the ring on a 12xx projector, shouldn't be setting it up in the first place. :p Those projectors don't really have true scheimpflug adjustments anyway, they're just presets.

There's no "scheimpflug info" for G70s, D50s or G90s since it's impossible.

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post #197 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 04:37 PM
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Ummm Sorry that is not right.

The 1292 has a "dual wedge ring" continuous system for lens flapping. It is continuously variable, but not in as easy fashion as the G90.

It does allow adjustments in 2 planes same as the G90. From what i have read. The G90 system is much easier to use, but the same results are obtainable for those that know how to use the 1292 system.

PJcalc as I said, does support a rough setting of Lens flapping by giving you approximate ring position info. That usually needs optimizing to get perfect lens flapping.

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post #198 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
Unless there's some new type tube and yoke design for the 8500, dream on. Besides, there's nothing that I know of that can measure screen resolution from a scope. More voo doo, "touching the lens will throw it out of focus". :rolleyes:

How about this system? This is what Scott uses at VDC. He said the same can be achieved with a scope and a video camera in this thread. I guess VDC stands for Voo Doo Corporation. :p Scott wasn't typing on his computer he must have been chanting to it. :D

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post #199 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
Unless there's some new type tube and yoke design for the 8500, dream on. Besides, there's nothing that I know of that can measure screen resolution from a scope. More voo doo, "touching the lens will throw it out of focus". :rolleyes:
A properly functioning 8500LC can RESOLVE 1080P. However, that has been confirmed at 4:3. Unlike most 8" CRT projectors, a Marquee 8500 uses the same video chain as the 9500LC, therefore it has the same bandwidth to the tubes. Scott is 100% correct, in saying that an 8" tube can resolve 1080P.


Quote:
There's no doubt that a DVI signal would be a "little" sharper when compared to a signal fed totally analog, but none of these things are enough to make an 8" projector resolve 1080p when setup with normal picture sizes
This is not true.



Quote:
The first impediment is the bandwidth of CRT projectors in general, which, even on 9" tubes, softens the picture.
True, but there are some 9" CRT projectors that can handle the bandwidth without softening. I've proven that many times. I've even had a chance to prove it again today. And the resolution that was used was 1800x1440 @70hz. I think this was somewhere around 105khz.

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post #200 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think the arguement is that a 8" like the G70 or the 8500LC can resolve 1080P at 4:3. What would be the point in even running that resolution in 4:3?

NO 8" projector can properly resolve 1080P at 16:9 the way it is intended. I've only seen one that is close and that is the G70VR.

So what's up with the 1292 thingy your working on?? Did Clarence get to see it this weekend?

Cliff
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post #201 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
I don't think the arguement is that a 8" like the G70 or the 8500LC can resolve 1080P at 4:3. What would be the point in even running that resolution in 4:3?
The confirmation of an 8500 resolving 1080P, is based on it's rated ansi resolution of 1100P.


Quote:
NO 8" projector can properly resolve 1080P at 16:9 the way it is intended. I've only seen one that is close and that is the G70VR.
Unlike the G70, a properly functioning 8500 has the bandwidth to electonically resolve 1080P. Can the tube and magnetics support that bandwidth, sure i've had several 8500 setup for 1080P, with no problem.


Quote:
So what's up with the 1292 thingy your working on?? Did Clarence get to see it this weekend?
My plans for this weekend was to repair the other two neck boards and show the 1292 to those in attendance. The company that I had ordered the two different parts from did not ship the parts. When I called, they said one of the parts were on backorder (cpcares.com), so the parts were not being shipped. the order was placed on the 17th, and it was a UPS two day air shipment. Since the parts did not arrive, we're moving the showing to another day (hopefully next weekend).

This order was cancelled, and I have parts placed with another operation.

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post #202 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 06:55 PM
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post #203 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748

Unlike the G70, a properly functioning 8500 has the bandwidth to electonically resolve 1080P. Can the tube and magnetics support that bandwidth, sure i've had several 8500 setup for 1080P, with no problem.
Even if the 8500 had adequate bandwidth for "sharp" 1080p, the electronic and optical combination just can't cut it. One of these days when you have an 8500 setup at 1080p, I'd like to see it. ;)

btw-The bandwidth of the 8500 and G70 are rated the same.

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post #204 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:20 PM
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What output amps does the 8500 use?

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post #205 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
Even if the 8500 had adequate bandwidth for "sharp" 1080p, the electronic and optical combination just can't cut it. One of these days when you have an 8500 setup at 1080p, I'd like to see it. ;)

btw-The bandwidth of the 8500 and G70 are rated the same.
I would love to have you stop through here one day when you're doing travel through this area. You're a person that I would really like to set down with and pick your mind on some things, therefore I've looked forward to meeting you for some time now.

I've been successful in setting up several 8500's at 1080P, likewise i've been able to setup 9500LC's at 1200P and higher. I've even had a gathering when Clarence had his laptop on my test 9500, and it was 1200P. And everyone present did not notice any softening. now, if a 9500LC can do 1200P without softening, shouldn't a 8500LC be able to handle 1080P (if propery setup)?

I have a customer who's thinking about retubing his 8500LC. I'll let you know if that happans, and if so, I'll do it around your schedule.

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post #206 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748
Unlike the G70, a properly functioning 8500 has the bandwidth to electonically resolve 1080P. Can the tube and magnetics support that bandwidth, sure i've had several 8500 setup for 1080P, with no problem.
Unlike the G70??? Facts please........

A bunch of steam just came out of my theater. I think my G70 is a little pissed.

Looking foward to hearing the results of your project.

Cliff
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post #207 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:39 PM
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I spoke to tse tonight about something else and brought this subject up. He said that when he gets a chance that he will take some pics like he did with his Ampro in this thread. Of course, that must be an optical illusion, because everyone knows that a 7" ES tube cannot do 1280x1024 at 75.

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post #208 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748
I would love to have you stop through here one day when you're doing travel through this area. You're a person that I would really like to set down with and pick your mind on some things, therefore I've looked forward to meeting you for some time now.

I've been successful in setting up several 8500's at 1080P, likewise i've been able to setup 9500LC's at 1200P and higher. I've even had a gathering when Clarence had his laptop on my test 9500, and it was 1200P. And everyone present did not notice any softening. now, if a 9500LC can do 1200P without softening, shouldn't a 8500LC be able to handle 1080P (if propery setup)?

I have a customer who's thinking about retubing his 8500LC. I'll let you know if that happans, and if so, I'll do it around your schedule.
I'm up in NY now....and my wife and dog are here with me :( , but the next time I come up from Florida alone, then when I go back down, I can stop on the way. :) Maybe I can get Terry to come at the same time and we can have a resolution party. :D

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post #209 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
Unlike the G70??? Facts please........

A bunch of steam just came out of my theater. I think my G70 is a little pissed.

Looking foward to hearing the results of your project.

Cliff
The video chain in the G70 is a tad below the G90. The G90 actually struggles with 1080P (verified by WM). The test pattern that Eric was refering to that tse had used, is a pattern to best test and confirm the speed and bandwidth of a video chain. this is one of the test we also use.

We've had a G70 in my shop a few years ago. that particular G70 had the red and green CRT's replaced. It did well at 960P, but anything about that was not being resolved properly.

The G90 produces a better focus than the Marquee 9500LC, but it does not have better bandwidth performance than the Marquee. The same may be true with the G70 and Marquee 8500LC.

I've had two local guys who owned G70's. one is JBJR. they both sold their G70's and went with a Marquee.

If you're everin this area gain, let me know. I could show you better than I could explain it here on the forum.. :)

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post #210 of 263 Old 02-05-2006, 07:44 PM
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Just in case you were interested --Ebay #5863460667---Sony-g90---
Let the game begin

I just asked the seller if it is ok to pay cash and pick up... we'll see.
edfowler is offline  
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