Zenith Proo 1200 CRT v Sony Ruby - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton
I viewed a Ruby and surprizingly I was watching a HD feed of Batman Forever with quite a bit of black in the picture and the black level didn't strike me as bad at all. Seemed watch-able. My guess is a movie like Star Trek with scenes of space would really show the black level problems but I only got a short demo. What I did see was noise in the picture which I tend to always see in Digital monitors and I'm almost convinced it's a source issue but I have no way to know.

I think if you pixel map directly and accurate-ly with a HTPC that noise would go away but I haven't seen that type of setup yet.

-Brian
:(
like as our's own Sony VPL-VW100 at the BallRoom ... all appearances not "Continuous Image" ... ruby just on the unmotion pictures, if motion picture make structure pixel apparent to be patterns ... generally all appearances still not Continuous Image. All in the all room condition, total darkness or ambient light even from 1 feet (40 cm).
these truth is WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get).
:(

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post #92 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 02:47 AM
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Come again..?
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post #93 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I tried Gladiator from the PC to the Ruby without doing much calibration and saw what you are talking about with banding/posterization there. I also tried it from the same thing on DVHS tape from a 5U through component and HDMI. At first I did see less, but I tried cranking the brightness up quite a bit while using component and then saw more like the PC. It would be interesting to know what is in the source.
--Darin
Yes it would be interesting to know whats in the source. Butr what I want to understand is why I don't see any of this posterization in CRT displays??

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I've included a .jpg file a with message and encodings of 16/17 and I'm curious whether you can read the message on the G90 or the 21" CRT with your current calibrations or without much change. For some reason I had to raise my brightness on my H79 3 points when playing this .jpg from TheaterTek to get the black levels to match up, so you might have to do something like that also. The reason I asked about this file is because that is a single step and I'm wondering how visible a single step like that is on your systems.
--Darin
It's very visable on the G90 and I haven't looked at it on the 21" monitor. But in order to see the message I had to turn up my brightness about 5%. What I did was save it to the desktop, centered and got rid of all other background items so that it was all black. I am running the latest NVidia drivers which (I think) have the desktop running at PC levels. These latest drivers are a bit confusing reading in the HTPC section.
I couldn't figure out how to display this pattern on TT.

Terry

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post #94 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
HoyaFan>> If the PQ of the 1.1 G70 is anywhere near that of the 1292 when AKB is activated, then yes, the PQ is far from optimal CRT performance. I must admit that I'm not very familiar with the G70, and I do want to emphasize what I have written several times now:
Turn of AKB if it's as bad as it is on the 1292.
I haven't seen the 1292, but it sounds like what you are talking about might be like what I understand happens with the G70 if the image is pushed up too far and the AKB is on. The black level will then jump around a lot. In this case the G70 has the later firmware that doesn't allow the G2 adjustments and the owner cannot get the images to be as nice overall without the AKB on as with it on. If the black level did jump around like you describe then I would agree with you about shutting it off, but fortunately that is not what he or I have seen. There have been a lot of discussions here in the past about whether it should be on or off for this machine and although at times it has looked like people have come up with ways to turn it off and improve things, they have never panned out for this one with its firmware according to the owner. As far as 3-Dimensionality the AKB lines aren't visible in brighter scenes where we saw the Ruby have the advantage in that department and in the darkest scenes where the G70 had the advantage in that department the AKB lines are up at the top for 16:9 material and on his adjustable screen masking (so pretty much invisible) for 2.35:1 material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuChuf
Yes it would be interesting to know whats in the source. Butr what I want to understand is why I don't see any of this posterization in CRT displays??
I figure it might be a smoothing of those steps on the CRTs at output so they are just below perception, but I'm not positive. Maybe it is somewhere else in the processing. Just out of curiousity, I've heard that when people look at the tubes they can see things that aren't visible on the screen. I wonder if you could see anything on the tube faces that might give a clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuChuf
It's very visable on the G90 and I haven't looked at it on the 21" monitor. But in order to see the message I had to turn up my brightness about 5%.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuChuf
I couldn't figure out how to display this pattern on TT.
On mine I was able to go into "Open" in TT and then pick the file, but we might be running different versions or have different settings (like Renderless mode).

--Darin

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post #95 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 08:08 AM
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I apologize for the newbie interference, but could somebody give me an example of what posterization looks like?

Matt
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post #96 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridebreck
I apologize for the newbie interference, but could somebody give me an example of what posterization looks like?
I'm looking at this on a desktop LCD monitor, so I'm not sure what it will look like on your's, but here is an example of what looks like very bad banding or posturization to me.

http://www.fhvideo.com/images/g90snap2/12.jpg

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post #97 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 09:40 AM
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That diffuse level of posterisation would be hard to see on most CRT I believe, specifically because it's mainly blue light, and the blue tube is often blurrier than the other two on CRT:s. Not always but very often.
However:
Quote:
I've heard that when people look at the tubes they can see things that aren't visible on the screen.
The same thing probably goes for most digitals, but it's darned hard to see what's on the panels. :D Mostly kidding with that last remark, it takes unreal focus setup to see all that's on the phosphor of a CRT I believe.
However, as I've said earlier here, posterisation and other digital artefacts can be readily seen on CRT as well, all depending on the processor feeding it and cable quality etc...

For example;
In ROTK 1080i (scaled to 1080p) I clearly see a lot of posterisation on the inside of the tent behind Eowyn in one scene. Anyone can se it. It's probably more evident since it's mostly red and green playing in that particular case.
Also: I just changed from using Lumagen HDP -> 5BNC to pj, to using Lumagen HDP -> optoelectrical DVI-D -> DVI>VGA-transcoder -> VGA-5BNC, which actually gives a much sharper representation. I didn't expect it, but it's obvious that the later config is superior.
After doing this swap, I suddenly see evident macroblocking in some scenes that I didn't see at all before. I doubt that it is in the source or in the scaler, but probably in the transcoder that I'm using. This could be some kind of evidence for what could happen in the digital domain. Or... It could be the scaler using some other kind of process for DVI-D to DVI-D, I'm not sure... The source is an IO-Data AvelLink (Sigma chip) HD-player that outputs DVI-D.
Any which way, I just want to point to the fact that many digital artefacts can't be hidden by CRT:s inherent "softness". :)
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post #98 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 09:49 AM
 
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http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_3.htm
"In analog displays like the CRT, noise tends to automatically cancel out through temporal and spatial averaging because of its random nature. This makes the noise much less visually apparent. On the other hand, most digital displays will magnify the appearance of analog signal noise because they sample the signal, so the noise component becomes pixelated. Also, the noise component in an analog signal generally averages out to zero at each point in the image within a few frame times, but digital sampling will generally not produce a series of digital values that average out to zero, which increases the visibility of the noise. Digital rescaling further magnifies the noise."
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post #99 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 10:29 AM
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Seems just about right. Analogs diminnish the noise/grain and digitals emphasize it. :) So one could say that digitals in general show more detail, even more detail than intended or present in the source material. :)
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post #100 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 10:29 AM
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Anyone seen any noise in real life lately? ;)
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post #101 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
Anyone seen any noise in real life lately? ;)
From time to time, but then I clean my glasses and things are peachy once more. :D

Matt
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post #102 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
Any which way, I just want to point to the fact that many digital artefacts can't be hidden by CRT:s inherent "softness". :)
I agree that many digital artifacts won't be hidden. At the FHV demo of the G90 last year at CEDIA they were playing WMV IMAX clips that were showing some stuff like above. I mentioned to them that they had this issue. I figure they might want to upgrade to better source and/or path in the future as I believe those clips have some banding in them inherently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
Anyone seen any noise in real life lately? ;)
Nope. Haven't seen any film grain or scanlines in real life either. ;)

--Darin

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post #103 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose
I guess that means that CRT members can't post in the Digital forums anymore? Please.
That is not even close to what I said. My example was one of trolling and that is clearly what I meant. I don't believe that CRT members should go into the digital forum to troll--in fact, look up my post count in the digital forum, it is quite low since I don't own one and have no desire to troll over there. You really ought read some of the archive threads here to get a historical basis to see the level of trolling that goes on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose
Prove Darin wrong with facts and stop letting it get personal! I'm sure that in the CRT forum you'll get plenty of people to back you up.
You really have not been in this forum long! Look up some of Darin's personal attacks. He is in fact the [i/]ad hominem[/i] king calling members liars and other names. Since he has done this on numerous occasions repeating the behavior, I can only infer one of two things:
1) This is considered acceptable behavior on the forum.
2) This is acceptable behavior only for a select few.

Pointing out behavior and policy that seems inconsistent is not "getting personal" In the end, I'm just curious why you are not as hard on the digital zealots spreading the good word in the CRT forum as some of the long term CRT members (I'm takling about others, not me).

But alas, it is not my forum, and you guys can choose to run it the way you want. Since this is a common question here now, I just thought it would be nice to address it but you deflected. But again, that is your right because this forum technically owes nothing to the members. Should you not wish to answer, I won't ask again.

But, back to your "prove it" assertion. I'll be happy to prove an opinion like what looks more 3D if you can provide me with an objective way to measure this. This lack of objective method is why I identified it as an opinion in my post long ago and actually encouraged the poster to go see one (empasis added):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Go see one. It will really depend upon how well your Zenith is set up and your priorities if you like it better. I for one would not switch even if one was given to me. The Ruby still looks "too digital" in my opinion and is not as nice as my Zenith for watching movies (the main purpose of my theater). I still prefer the Zenith on HD because of the more natural and 3D look.
Unfortunately, some of the members with a digital preference don't feel like others should be able to express their opinion here.

As an aside, the closest I can come to proving something like this is "expert opinion". Here is a couple:
Widescreen Review - G90 was best picture of show (beating Ruby and every other digital).
The Perfect Vision - When Ruby was compared to an 8" CRT, the CRT was found to have a more 3D look.

Dave
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post #104 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 11:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
Anyone seen any noise in real life lately? ;)
There is no way to differentiate between noise and detail. In fact there is always some noise in any good picture.

But what we notice most about film noise is its random pattern changing from frame to frame. While this, too, introduces extraneous information, it's also true that the randomness of the grain structure actually allows MORE information to be recovered from the image.
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post #105 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 11:05 AM
 
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Too funny-

K- how do you prove by facts something that is judgemental? Good one...

D- I would predict a ban in your near future. :p

But at least you have a fall back option - or twin
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post #106 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Dave claimed the following about his Zenith 1200 that he runs at 1080i
Just curious, when were you in my theater to know what all resolutions and refresh rates I'm running for various material? I've commented about 1080i@72 from testing it. I've also commented on DVD players I've tested but don't use daily.

You are participating alot in this thread, so perhaps you think it is too much to ask, but I'd really like to know where and what Zenith Pro 1200 X/Barco Cine 8 Onyx you evaluated so that you can give OP an honest assessment.

Dave
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post #107 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
You are participating alot in this thread, so perhaps you think it is too much to ask, but I'd really like to know where and what Zenith Pro 1200 X/Barco Cine 8 Onyx you evaluated so that you can give OP an honest assessment.
You have now avoided my questions about seeing the Ruby 3 times. Is there a reason you won't answer this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
And Dave, have you seen the Ruby or haven't you? If you have, what were the conditions and the material?
I assume that the OP is an adult and can figure out that I asked Terry to comment on the G90 vs the Ruby, that my post gave what we found with the G70 vs the Ruby and did not give results of any comparison of the Zenith to a Ruby:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Some of us compared a well setup G70 (the owner sets projectors up for other people and has his tweaked in well, IMO) at 1080i and 720p (it was too soft at 1080p) to the Ruby at 1080p with that same Gladiator source you have and I believe everybody in the room felt that there were images with the Ruby in there that were more 3D than with the G70 and that group included two G70 owners.
I had already told the OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I don't know of anybody who has done a comparison of that Zenith to a Ruby, but some of us have compared a Sony G70 which is about in the same class as the Zenith to a Ruby ...
I have not seen your model of projector and have never claimed that I have, but if you want to argue with "... a Sony G70 which is about in the same class as the Zenith to a Ruby ..." then go ahead and argue that.

Once again, why are you avoiding questions about seeing the Ruby like the plague?

BTW: This is pretty amusing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Unfortunately, some of the members with a digital preference don't feel like others should be able to express their opinion here.
given that this is the post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7297853

that seems to have gotten you so upset here and you have tried to get me banned from here. You seem to have confused "be able to express their opinion here" with "be able to express their opinion here and keep anybody with any information you don't like from providing it."

--Darin

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post #108 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 11:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
And if a professional thinks that a higher dynamic range (or on/off CR) will always look more 3-Dimensional, then they are wrong.
Just like the professionals who wrote that on/off CR didn't matter and all that mattered was ANSI CR were wrong.
;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Darin's personal attacks.
I can confirm this, while it's one thing to disagree (nothing wrong with that!) but name calling, & or characterizations of out right lying made toward me from, "Darin" and "Chris Wiggles" are just childish..
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post #109 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
. You really ought read some of the archive threads here to get a historical basis to see the level of trolling that goes on here.

And...

You really have not been in this forum long! Look up some of Darin's personal attacks.
LOL! I've been a member here for quite some time as you can see and I am quite aware of what has been posted in the CRT forum as I kept an eye on it ever since I've owned a CRT. I may not have posted here after going digital but I've always kept an eye on it.

As far as I'm concerned you guys can debate things until you are blue in the face. It just seems like you seem to get emotional over most of Darin's comments and tend to answer questions with more questions.

After the insults that were tossed about in the last thread I closed you can see why I addressed your concern.

It's funny how it is "assumed" that I know nothing about this forum when I was a member here long before many of you.

Carry on, just try to advance this thread beyond the normal back and forth bickering that goes nowhere.

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post #110 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
As an aside, the closest I can come to proving something like this is "expert opinion". Here is a couple:
...The Perfect Vision - When Ruby was compared to an 8" CRT, the CRT was found to have a more 3D look.

Dave
You might want to chose another review to prove your point. :)

Actual quotes from the Perfect Vision Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by J O N A T H A N V A L I N Perfect Vision Review
The venerable CRT finally meets its digital match in
the eyes of an avowed analog-o-phile.

...
Then there was the VPL-VW100’s
astonishing resolution. The utter clarity
of the ornate detail of the elaborately
decorative costumes in Messenger,
Luc Besson’s Joan of Arc movie, and in
the HBO sword-and-sandal series
Rome, elevated the picture to a level of
photorealism that I’ve never seen
before on video in my home—a clarity
like that of fashion ads in Vogue or
GQ. Here was the front-to-back
sharpness, the depth of field and focus,
we’ve been longing for but never got
with beam-spot
projection.

The VPL-VW100 is the best digital
projector I’ve ever seen. Its resolution
is simply amazing (slaughtering CRT
on HD and, frankly, on DVD), its colors
are exceptionally pure and delicately
varied, its shadow detail is
superb, its blacks are unparalleled in a
liquid-crystal-based display, and its
dynamic range from black to white is
quite good (though not as broad as
film or CRT).

...The internal
video processing appears to be outstanding—
I saw far fewer motion artifacts
on parallel lines than I am used
to on CRT at 1080i, virtually no false
contouring, and only a very occasional
bit of noise on fine detail (which
was probably source-related, as it was
also visible on my CRT).

...More impressive still, it
betters my $50,000 CRT projector in
every area but absolute blacks and
dynamic range. That’s what I’d call the
Product of the Year.
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post #111 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
You might want to chose another review to prove your point. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by by XXXXXXXXXXXXX Perfect Vision Review
The VPL-VW100 is the best digital
projector I’ve ever seen.
did the Qualia 004 get slammed ? :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by by XXXXXXXXXXXXX Perfect Vision Review
its colors are exceptionally pure
I've read vibrant, or saturated. Pure to me indicates accurate. The last review I've read definitely said all colors were off SMPTE standard.

But it also added " it doesn't look bad" :)

AJF

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post #112 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 04:24 PM
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tbrunet>> I disagree with your remarks on noise/detail. There should be no problem distinguishing noise/grain from recorded detail at most times in any decent presentation.
Sometimes it can be hard of course, but far from always.

What I feel happen often in digital displays is that noise/grain take over the presentation and that one in the process looses the perception of the true fine detail.
Many digitals present a PQ that makes me wonder if there is an extra noise filter involved, one that adds noise rather than dampen it.
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post #113 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 04:26 PM
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This thread is an excellent example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...11#post7370111
:(
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post #114 of 319 Old 03-24-2006, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
...More impressive still, it
betters my $50,000 CRT projector in
every area but absolute blacks and
dynamic range. That’s what I’d call the
Product of the Year.
Absolute blacks and dynamic range - well, isn't that the two things that CRT:s always have been the best at? So what's new..?
Also, I doubt that it betters most CRT:s when it comes to color fidelity, coupled with a decent source most CRT:s can be calibrated really close to D65 along a good gamma curve. It might be equal in this area, but better..?
Reports are also saying that the Ruby has problems with fine detail (even when fed 1:1), color fidelity, color shifts, misconvergence... So, what is this guy talking about?
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post #115 of 319 Old 03-25-2006, 06:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
tbrunet>> I disagree with your remarks on noise/detail. There should be no problem distinguishing noise/grain from recorded detail at most times in any decent presentation.
Fair enough arioch, nothing wrong in disagreeing/debating :)
Unfortunately anything that reduces noise also tends to reduce image detail.
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post #116 of 319 Old 03-25-2006, 07:24 AM
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While Ruby does provide a very nice picture and INITIALLY one would be wowed by it, after spending some time with one, there is no way IMO that it is a CRT killer. Not at this stage and for all the reasons that have been stated here and have been hased out on the various Digital threads indicating the problems Ruby exhibits. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Darin, I run the latest TT, renderless VMR9 (in fact I have the later than latest). The problem is that I couldn't figure out how to download the file you posted (16 on 17) so I was forced to set as desktop. The file seemed to associate with my browser when I told it to open.

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post #117 of 319 Old 03-25-2006, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuchuf
Darin, I run the latest TT, renderless VMR9 (in fact I have the later than latest). The problem is that I couldn't figure out how to download the file you posted (16 on 17) so I was forced to set as desktop. The file seemed to associate with my browser when I told it to open.
I think you should be able to get it if you right click on the file and go down to, "Save target as ...".

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post #118 of 319 Old 03-25-2006, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
What I feel happen often in digital displays is that noise/grain take over the presentation and that one in the process looses the perception of the true fine detail.
Many digitals present a PQ that makes me wonder if there is an extra noise filter involved, one that adds noise rather than dampen it.

Have you seen the Ruby yet?

Well, let me see if I understand this. If you compare the Ruby or any other good digital to a CRT with test pattern and the digital are sharper, you don't think this is WHY you see more noise in movies on a digital than a CRT? :rolleyes:


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post #119 of 319 Old 03-25-2006, 10:25 AM
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nin>> You know my opinion about static test patterns. Most digitals are phenomenal at displaying static images, but many, many digitals are really poor at showing moving pictures. This is no news.
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post #120 of 319 Old 03-25-2006, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
nin>> You know my opinion about static test patterns. Most digitals are phenomenal at displaying static images, but many, many digitals are really poor at showing moving pictures. This is no news.
And by WHAT test have you proven that?

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