Small Squiggly interference lines on NEC XG 1352 ?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 06:37 AM
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Gary,

Check out the thread Curt started on his site that offers an alternative focusing technique for XG's.

Daniel

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post #92 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, Thanks Daniel, I saw that

-Gary
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post #93 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 07:24 AM
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I've been thinking about the lines - my PC monitor will do something similar if it doesn't like the timings.

What timings are you using? What porch settings? Can you post the settings? Did you try the same timings Cliff was using?

Have you tried S-video/composite? Component from another source?

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post #94 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark I am using the DVDO VP30 scaler, it has full 100% control over the whole timing signal, everything you name it, BUT...

the unit shows this with no source connected :( with the rasters lite up with brightness cranked/contrast minimum

Mark I am also getting ready to post another pic that shows the problem much worse, the pj was BAD this morning when I flipped him on

-Gary
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post #95 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benny
G'day CZ :)

Name is Russ ... moniker is benny. Its a nickname i've had for years!

Screen is Goo CRT white onto MDF. Hand applied with 5mm wool nap roller. Gain is measured at 1.35:1 as compared to normal blockout cloth. There is a fair bit of texture when using a roller and if i was to do it all over again I would spray the Goo on. The shot of the test pattern is also from quite close, and that will bring out the texture moreso than from seating distance.

Cliff ... thanks :)

Cheers :)

Russ
If I recall correctly the Goo's gain is about 1.1 not 1.35??

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post #96 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM
If I recall correctly the Goo's gain is about 1.1 not 1.35??
Depends on who you ask. Ken will say it is much higher based on a different measuring system. No need to discuss it here, as it has been talked about over in screens. Gary, I believe I remember that you floor mount. If that is correct, then I would consider a HP. A High Power in a Torus Lite config would be even better.:) Before I get bashed for this again, my belief is that a HP acts like an unity gain screen. A CRT loses uniformity on the order of 50% from center to corner. Using a Torus Lite with either HP or unity can partially correct this. If you go with Goo, then buy a cheap sprayer from Harbor Freight. I bought the $100 turbine and it works fine. It is not as good as my $800 model, but it is much better than rolling. Another cheap alternative is roof paint. Bruce Can has been promoting it in the DIY forum. In all honesty, I should have went with the roof paint rather than my expensive coating.

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post #97 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 12:38 PM
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I have been using a Daizan 1.3 lately sold off the bay with good results. It is not 1.3 but other than it is a fine screen and cheap at $40 for 9" wide. It is not a blackout material.

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post #98 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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anybody got any idea on these interference lines, they are killing me, I guess I will just have to start swapping boards, which in itself is no easy task with recalibration(per service manual) and the cost of them

:( :(

-Gary
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post #99 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 03:43 PM
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Gary,
What are the board numbers? I have all the boards to an XG110 that I am going to sell. If you want to pay shipping, then I can send them to you for diagnosing.

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post #100 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks very much for the offer Eric, let me check those numbers and get back with you

I appreciate the offer very much sir, Thanks again

-Gary
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post #101 of 284 Old 05-18-2006, 04:38 PM
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Eric may have covers to replace your damaged ones (Eric?).

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post #102 of 284 Old 05-19-2006, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
Oliver you my friend, you are a genious and you really know your stuff :)

I moved my 1352 back to 128" from the 82" width screen, the focus interaction was much more even and the phosphur grain came in much much better without the need for outer unfocus

which totally confirms my issues, confirming 2 things:

with the 134 lenses, they do not like smaller screens
the 134 lenses also Do NOT like maximized raster

or maybe they just don't like maximized raster ??

I noticed that to focus the corners this far back, the outer lens focus needs just a smidge from being maximzed, allowing the middle to be better like I had been explaining all along

get this:

for the NEC 1352 with 134 lenses, the throw distance chart from the 1352 manual gives a screen width of just 85" for a throw distance of 128", my screen size at that throw with maximized raster would be 98" width :eek:

I could set this guy up per the NEC throw distance and make my screen 86" but that would be pushing it for my viewing distance

basically I think things are not interacting well here, maximzed raster meaning smaller throw meaning the 134 lenses work differently, all amounting to my problem

I wish I had a bigger room, I would set him up for 98" width

right now I am looking at 2 options a bigger screen and NEC specified throw(which sucks!) or trying another lens set

Thanks again Oliver

-Gary
Gary,

glad you could verify that for your setup distance makes a difference.
I always found it strange after reflecting on it that a lens should work equally good for screen sizes from 4 ft wide to 20 ft wide - you would expect that the manufacturer would have to make some tradeoffs that would likely make the lenses very good with distances in between, like maybe 9 to 15 ft. And indeed I tried the HD10 at screen widths from 11.5 to 13.5 ft from time to time and they focus very nicely, they just snap in, much better then at 7 ft which I also tried.

FWIW I have maximized rasters on lots of Pj's and have found a screen around and above 8' wide to be enough to get good focus on all units with wide range lenses that I used, did not do much with screen sizes below that.

Of course lenses also behave different on different projectors, like the HD18 on a G70 and the XG or the 144s on the XG and the Barco 808.

So you might want to give the HD18 a try or experiment a bit with non-standard Scheimpflug settings on your 134s before that, as mainly the red and blue are affected.

Oliver
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post #103 of 284 Old 05-19-2006, 08:02 AM
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I don't know what and to what degree his problems are with these lens.
In real word, any lens has harder time in close focus set up and as well as edge focus when raster is maxed out. HD-134 uses two asperical elements on the back and front, one each, to actually correct for field curvature. I don't have a reference to post but I recall that when I read about it some six years ago. Some of the softness he is seeing might be due to LC which has different look than AC. maybe!

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post #104 of 284 Old 05-20-2006, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I am gonna have Ken come out later guys, any other suggestions on this interference issue ??

Thanks

-Gary
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post #105 of 284 Old 05-20-2006, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Oliver would you say that the HD18's behave better on the G70 or XG ??

you are also very correct about the red and blue being effected worse, I can pull in a decent optical grain focus on the center with the pj moved forward closer, but the red and blue are totally shot

Caspian, I can pull in the phosphur grain with the outer lens at the incorrect position, this is the exact same behavior that the 144's showed when they didn't like a Barco 808 setup of mine, so I don't think that the LC would be the cause of this

thanks guys

-Gary
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post #106 of 284 Old 05-20-2006, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
Caspian, I can pull in the phosphur grain with the outer lens at the incorrect position, this is the exact same behavior that the 144's showed when they didn't like a Barco 808 setup of mine, so I don't think that the LC would be the cause of this

thanks guys

-Gary
I really can't tell you with certainty what explains your situation. But I wish I could. When I did my focus it just seemed that I was able to see the grain better on green than red and blue. I figured that I am going color blind :) . But H patterns looked equally fine and plenty of scan lines all over.
But seriously green can be seen easier than red and blue.
The ultimate is to try another set of lens and find out. 1080i looks like artifact hell at 14'. It looks good from 18'. Go figure.

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post #107 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 08:23 AM
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I wonder what has happened to Doug B? It is untypical of him not to participate in a Nec's thread. I bit he is out of town or something. Is he back To Wa? Could some expert help this guy?!!

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post #108 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the bump Caspian, I have got to get this fixed before Ken comes out

if any pros want to help me out and quote a price for repairs please PM or post

Thanks guys, I am open to anything at this point in time

-Gary
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post #109 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 11:24 AM
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Try this as a last resort:

I ncase it's some kind of ground loop issue.

Fire the set up with a laptop runing off batteries. Use a short RGBHV cable and hook the projector to an AC outlet, nothing else.

If the lines are still there, it's a set issue for sure.

Someone had a a similar issue and said to defocus the set slightly. I think he had a 1292 or an XG, I can't remember.

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post #110 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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gotcha Curt, still the same, even with no source connected it still does it :(

this certainly sucks :(

I have tried power conditioners, different dedicated 20amp circuits, cheater plugs, higher end power cables, ferrite cores, you name it

-Gary
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post #111 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 03:32 PM
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Just out of curosity, how can you tell that even without signal you still can see the lines when XG's cut off the tubes when no signal synced to?

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post #112 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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cranking up the brightness zeroing the contrast with no input, grey screen "on screen" shows the interference squigglies :(

-Gary
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post #113 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 06:24 PM
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Hope you take him up on the offer for the spare-boards tryout. Nothing is more handy than having spare boards on-hand for troubleshooting. Well worth the money, IMO.

Whats even better of course, is a spare projector :p

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post #114 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 08:17 PM
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Everything is ok at Cliffs then you receive and it turns to ca-ca.

What is different besides possible shipping damage? Have you started a claim and have they came out to inspect the shipping box and packaging?

First your throw / 'grain' / lens differences will need to be set aside until you have a normal working projector and sort through why you have noise. BTW: If I remember right this has the short persistance (3D) phosphor green CRT installed so it may appear different in 'grain'.

Have Cliff check his AC for earth to neutral voltage and compare to yours without the projector plugged in. With it powered on do you get even line power voltage between the projector circuit phase and the other phase the house uses to make up 220V?
If not you can have a bad neutral.

Shut down all other circuits (breakers) in the house and see if it 'noise' stays the same.

Go over every connector in the projector starting with the power supply then deflection etc. Remove each connection and plug back in paying special attention to ribbon cables at the back of the drive boards as well as motherboard. If you miss a connection then its all for not so do them all. Back the drive boards out of the vertical standing sub mother boards to reseat. Reseat each neck board and check each ground wire.

Check that the metal covers are installed over the neck boards. Above the projector is there a motor from the AC? Doug
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post #115 of 284 Old 05-22-2006, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Baisey
Everything is ok at Cliffs then you receive and it turns to ca-ca.

What is different besides possible shipping damage? Have you started a claim and have they came out to inspect the shipping box and packaging?

First your throw / 'grain' / lens differences will need to be set aside until you have a normal working projector and sort through why you have noise. BTW: If I remember right this has the short persistance (3D) phosphor green CRT installed so it may appear different in 'grain'.

Have Cliff check his AC for earth to neutral voltage and compare to yours without the projector plugged in. With it powered on do you get even line power voltage between the projector circuit phase and the other phase the house uses to make up 220V?
If not you can have a bad neutral.

Shut down all other circuits (breakers) in the house and see if it 'noise' stays the same.

Go over every connector in the projector starting with the power supply then deflection etc. Remove each connection and plug back in paying special attention to ribbon cables at the back of the drive boards as well as motherboard. If you miss a connection then its all for not so do them all. Back the drive boards out of the vertical standing sub mother boards to reseat. Reseat each neck board and check each ground wire.

Check that the metal covers are installed over the neck boards. Above the projector is there a motor from the AC? Doug
Doug,

Don't know if you read about the whole shipping thing, but basically a fork was driven into the rear of the PJ breaking the rear plastic and denting the card cage. Nothing else was damaged......

I didn't have that problem here and am completely stumped as to why he is having this problem? :confused:

I've even posted screenshots of this projector and NONE of them show this kind of issue...... :(

I'm faxing a claim tomorrow to the shipping company.

Cliff
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post #116 of 284 Old 05-23-2006, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
Oliver would you say that the HD18's behave better on the G70 or XG ??

you are also very correct about the red and blue being effected worse, I can pull in a decent optical grain focus on the center with the pj moved forward closer, but the red and blue are totally shot

Caspian, I can pull in the phosphur grain with the outer lens at the incorrect position, this is the exact same behavior that the 144's showed when they didn't like a Barco 808 setup of mine, so I don't think that the LC would be the cause of this

thanks guys

-Gary
Gary,

I had a G70 with HD18 and it did not really look too hot when I used it on a small screen size when trying it out.
As I suspected this to be a problem with short throw size I just moved it further away which made focussing easier immediately and never gave it a second thought.

There is however one other thing that comes to mind: The Scheimpflug on the XG's is let's just say not so great, others would call it crappy :D So you might want to try different Scheimpflug settings with your off-center tubes, I know that I also had my 1292 in a non-factory recommended setting after quite some experimentation.

Oliver
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post #117 of 284 Old 05-23-2006, 07:09 AM
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Cliff-Gary,
If the cards slide up and down without binding it should be ok but I would go over each connector. Might put the cage in service position then go over each connector. Take care where the wire looms are so they dont hang up.

It could be possible pressing the deflection yoke plugs to change polarity may have done something to the traces (unlikely) but Id be careful not to lift or break those connections with it running. Doug
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post #118 of 284 Old 05-23-2006, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Doug & guys I will get right on this, reseating all the boards and connectors and everything else suggested

no motors around Doug, I have checked my power and it is ok, I have also tried a power conditioner

Doug the noise and horizontal lines switch between tubes and sometimes are very faint, other times they are BAD, the blue shows a slow scrolling set of lines that covers the hole screen horizontally, they move up and down, the lines are small and not the size of the notorious ground loops, but are plainly visible from 120" back from the screen

-Gary
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post #119 of 284 Old 05-23-2006, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Doug

I have checked for proper grounding on all 3 neck cards = ok
I have checked the metal shielding around the neck cards = ok
I have reseated every card in the unit, except the middle chassis cards(unit is on the ceiling for time being = ok
I have reseated every connector on the unit = ok

I fired him back up and things are a little different, first of all the Green tube was always the least and 95% of the time showed nothing, the Green is that way right now, no problems at all

the red and blue tubes however are worse than ever right now, the red tube as almost a set of static horizontal ghost lines across the screen(they seem to vary in intensity/pulsating), along with severe jittery lines all over, the are straight across the screen

the blue tube is different, it shows moving horizontal lines the move back and forth vertically, really fast and they are skewed in other words not exactly horizontal, the blue is almost like a ground loop like issue

I will see if I can get some better pix up

Thanks guys

-Gary
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post #120 of 284 Old 05-23-2006, 09:14 AM
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Glad to see Doug is on this one.
One note gary- With no signal XG cannot recall brightness/contrast setting as you indicated since it is based on the signal entered. With no signal looking into tubes I get nothing. Only green that barely visible and I only hardly could makeout some scanlines. My red and blue are dark.

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