Ok Folks! Show me your dots! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I am tweaking my PJ's and I dont know if it is good enough. :confused:

I can see something which I 'think' are scanlines at 1080p. :eek: So does it mean it is resolving full 1080p? To my eyes, the image is soft at 1080p. Text via a HTPC is not readable at 1920x1080. It is readable at 1280x720.

I want to make it sharper so I started tweaking it.

so what am I tweaking?
  1. Astig
  2. Focus
  3. Geometry

I want to see how good a REALLY well setup PJ's dots are.
So come on folks, show me how good those dots can be! :D

Also, lets have a sharpened pencil right next to the dots in the picture, so we can see how big the dots are.

-Rajiv
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post #2 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 10:53 AM
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If you can see scan lines at 1080p then you are resolving 1080. It's probably the 1920 part that you are having trouble with.

Scott
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post #3 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 11:51 AM
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why are you so set on 1920 x 1080, it's definitely not a standard yet. At 1440 x 960 I can easilly read the very small Copyright text on the begining of Theatre Tek start-up Logo ( 1.85 AR screen).
I have not tried 1080 yet and see no reason to at this point.

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post #4 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 11:53 AM
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If you were anywhere close to resolving 1080p text would be easily readable. Not readable means you are not even close.

What kind of projector? Try 1080i instead. You may have to enable 1080i in the video cards control panel, then set to 1920x1080 @ 30 hz, then check the box for forcing 3d applications to use desktop refresh rate instead of it defaulting to 60hz for vmr9 full screen.

If you're trying to do 1920x1080 to get native on .ts streams that's the way. It's vastly superior to scaling the image down to 720p and most any half decent crt will do 1080i extremely well.

Using this method I get a superior picture from my htpc using purevideo codec on vmr9 at 1080i than either motorola HD cable box or HD DVR natively connected via component. (straight into a 7" ES barco 708s that takes component.) video card is a 9800pro... Not only is text readable, but I can see the pixel structure of the text.

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post #5 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm
why are you so set on 1920 x 1080, it's definitely not a standard yet. At 1440 x 960 I can easilly read the very small Copyright text on the begining of Theatre Tek start-up Logo ( 1.85 AR screen).
I have not tried 1080 yet and see no reason to at this point.
1920x1080 is a standard. In fact, it is the standard for the vast majority of what I watch. Most broadcast HD is 1080i, HD DVD is 1080i. 1440x960 is good for DVD, but why down res HD?

Rajdude, is this one of your Ampros? I don't think any Ampro can do 1920x1080. Certainly not an 8' if you are using one of those.

Dave
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post #6 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Scott!
You got me confused here! :confused:

So you are saying that my PJ is resolving the 1080 verrtical lines but not the full horizontal 1920 lines, right ?

Maybe but how to tell?

Also what is the solution? Will tweaking the astig and focus help or the PJ simply does not have enough bandwidth?

Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by tse
If you can see scan lines at 1080p then you are resolving 1080. It's probably the 1920 part that you are having trouble with.

Scott

-Rajiv
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post #7 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema
If you were anywhere close to resolving 1080p text would be easily readable. Not readable means you are not even close.

What kind of projector? Try 1080i instead. You may have to enable 1080i in the video cards control panel, then set to 1920x1080 @ 30 hz, then check the box for forcing 3d applications to use desktop refresh rate instead of it defaulting to 60hz for vmr9 full screen.
[Snip]
Troy
Troy, this is an Ampro 4200. Full 9†tubes, all mint, Liquid Coupled. HD10 Lenses. I have tweaked it, with board swaps and CPC magnet upgrades.

I know it has better potential than what I am seeing because I myself have seen more sharpness when I was tweaking it on the floor. Now it is hanging and I feel it has gone soft.


I do feed it 1080i from the DVR >> Moome card in Sony 1271 Switcher. That way the image is sharper than what is from the HTPC.

I also think maybe it is the switcher. I will bypass it tonight. I am also transplanting a better video card than the on-board one I am using currently.


I will post pics tonight.

Thanks

-Rajiv
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post #8 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
1920x1080 is a standard. In fact, it is the standard for the vast majority of what I watch. Most broadcast HD is 1080i, HD DVD is 1080i. 1440x960 is good for DVD, but why down res HD?

Rajdude, is this one of your Ampros? I don't think any Ampro can do 1920x1080. Certainly not an 8' if you are using one of those.

Dave

Dave, yes this is my Ampro 4200. I think it can surely do 1080i.

1080p may be asking for too much, but I want to see where is the limit

-Rajiv
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post #9 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 12:58 PM
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The 4200 will not have the bandwidth for 1080p, you'll have to do 1080i. Sure it's 9" but the electronics just aren't good enough for 1080p to come through sharp. Maybe there's some mods you can do or fresh caps to get it better but as is forget it.

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post #10 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 02:21 PM
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Rajdude,

You say straight HD-10 lenses, at what screen size?

Chip

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #11 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 04:41 PM
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Copy the little .bmp file to your desktop. Leave it as a bitmap file, it won't compress properly. The top two boxes show one pixel on, one pixel off and one line on, one line off. If your pj shows the lines of the top right box then the tube, lens, and focus is good at the resolution you are using. If the left side top box isn't showing it's lines there is a bandwidth problem. It isn't always the projector. It can be anything in the video system. Try different resolutions.

The 1920 part of 1920x 1080 means there is available up to 1920 vertical lines the 1080 part means there can be 1080 horizontal lines.

The other pic shows 1920 x 1080p from a new Marquee projector.

Scott
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post #12 of 283 Old 09-20-2006, 05:17 PM
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Rajiv,

If everything works out I should be joining the 9" CRT club this weekend. I found a 4200 that is a short drive away. If everything goes as planned I'll post some pics when it's all set up.

Scott
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post #13 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 12:36 AM
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Rajiv,

I can read Text on an NEC 9PG plus on 1080p easily, heck it is no prob on a 9PG.
I doubt VERY much that the 4200 shows scanlines at 1080p and at the same time you cannot read the text on the desktop, don't know if that is even possible.

Most probably you see some kind of line twitter.

Scott knows his way around Ampros so maybe he will be able to post a screenshot of his baby before he is modding the heck out of it to give you an impression of its stock capabilities (Which I think are not too hot).

Oliver
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post #14 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 12:59 AM
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my dots are approx. 0.8 by 0.8 millimeter on a 1.9 m wide screen when displaying 1920x1080i96 on my NEC PG plus.
They are the same size for all tubes (when blue is not defocussed).

Text is also perfectly legible. Including Excel tables.
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post #15 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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First, thanks a lot to everyone who has replied, I will soon reply to each post.

But right now I have some screenshots which I took yesterday

Here are my dots:
I took them with the PJ running 1024 x768 from a HTPC. Sorry I could not get the focus of the camera sharp. This point and shoot just wont cut it!

I wonder how Kal got the pics so nice and crisp on his site: http://www.curtpalme.com/Astig2.shtm

Anyway, I think the size of these dots may be around 2 mm round. Some are oval (I still need to tweak them a bit)

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5029.JPG

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5030.JPG

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5031.JPG

Oh well, maybe these pics are useless anyway.

-Rajiv
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post #16 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some screenshots I tool at 720p and 1080p yesterday night.

I used the nokia test pattern generator (ntest.exe). I used the readability test pattern. I took the screenshots from the center of the screen.

First, running at 1280x720 (720p):


http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5022.JPG

Not that bad eh?? :)


Second, running at 1920x1080 (1080p):

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5023.JPG


As you can see, 1080p is very soft and barely legible. :(

But here is the strange thing:
Screen shots from the Windows desktop are illegible at both rezs! :eek:

Screenshots of Windows desktop’s right click menu:

At 720p:

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5025.JPG


At 1080p:

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5024.JPG

-Rajiv
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post #17 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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About 1080i and 1080p:

I took some shots of powerstrip running the PJ at 1080p and 1080i. Here are they:

Running at progressive (1080p):

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5026.JPG

Running interlaced (1080i):

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5027.JPG


Notice the checkbox is checked for “interlacedâ€

Note that there is not much difference here. I did feel that the progressive was a little better to look at, but it still was unusable.

-Rajiv
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post #18 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:13 AM
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For a start, just take a pic of red or green. The convergence errors don't help....

And I have to say that my 7" Xtra and my 8" XG LC appear sharper than the "Fullscreen" pics - but sharp pics are hard to take with a cheap digital - mine suck.

However there is something REALLY WRONG with your desktop. What happens if you connect a CRT monitor?

Loving my Electric Bike!!
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post #19 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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And finally... some screenshots of real stuff.

This one is from the Windows HD media sample. Downloaded from Microsoft’s site. It is 720p native and the PJ was being fed 720p.

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_ima..._5034small.JPG

Notice the faint horizontal lines. They are much more visible in reality. The camera does not pick them up nicely.

What are they? :confused:
Are they scanlines?


You can see these lines better in the bigger picture. Here is the link to the full sized picture CLICK HERE

Here is another one

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_ima..._5035small.JPG

Here is the link to the full sized picture CLICK HERE

And finally the customary Leelo from a DVD running at 720p

http://www.funkyhuman.com/hosted_ima..._5039small.JPG

Here is the link to the full sized picture CLICK HERE


I know :
The geometry is not fully done, the convergence is also off in the corners. I tried my level best but I run out of adjustments. :mad:

I know people will scream at me saying that my mechanical setup is wrong hence yadda yadda yadda ;) . But really, I have double checked it. I do agree that there is still some tweaking to do, but not a whole lot.

-Rajiv
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post #20 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Chip,
The screen is 76 inches wide.

I know some people here have told me (due to the smallish screen) that I need HD10L instead, but the Ampro's manual says otherwise. :confused:

There is another guy here who is doign a swap and I am waiting for him to post something :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel
Rajdude,

You say straight HD-10 lenses, at what screen size?

Chip

-Rajiv
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post #21 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Scott,
Thanks for this. I will do this tonight and post the results. Also, I think I should take the shots of individual guns, not all together as my FULLSCREEN shots above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tse
Copy the little .bmp file to your desktop. Leave it as a bitmap file, it won't compress properly. The top two boxes show one pixel on, one pixel off and one line on, one line off. If your pj shows the lines of the top right box then the tube, lens, and focus is good at the resolution you are using. If the left side top box isn't showing it's lines there is a bandwidth problem. It isn't always the projector. It can be anything in the video system. Try different resolutions.

The 1920 part of 1920x 1080 means there is available up to 1920 vertical lines the 1080 part means there can be 1080 horizontal lines.

The other pic shows 1920 x 1080p from a new Marquee projector.

Scott

-Rajiv
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post #22 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh WOW! This is good news for me, since that means you may tweak it to the fullest! :D :D

Keep us posted! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tse
Rajiv,

If everything works out I should be joining the 9" CRT club this weekend. I found a 4200 that is a short drive away. If everything goes as planned I'll post some pics when it's all set up.

Scott

-Rajiv
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post #23 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Oliver!
Check my screenshots above. I have a screen shot at 1080p, I can barely read text.

"line twitter" ?? :confused: :confused:

What is that?

I do see some sort of lines at 1080p, judging from your post....maybe they are not really scanlines. :confused:

It is very interesting that your 9PG which is ranked much lower than the 4200 [at Curt's site http://www.curtpalme.com/Projector_Rankings.shtm] can do so much better.

Then I guess it is a setup fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs
Rajiv,

I can read Text on an NEC 9PG plus on 1080p easily, heck it is no prob on a 9PG.
I doubt VERY much that the 4200 shows scanlines at 1080p and at the same time you cannot read the text on the desktop, don't know if that is even possible.

Most probably you see some kind of line twitter.

Scott knows his way around Ampros so maybe he will be able to post a screenshot of his baby before he is modding the heck out of it to give you an impression of its stock capabilities (Which I think are not too hot).

Oliver

-Rajiv
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post #24 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quite frankly, those "fullscreen" pics are just about right. They are very similar to what I see on the screen. :(

About the desktop.... :D I dont know....the text is extremely clear when I connect a CRT monitor. :eek:


You are right about the convergence errors. :o I will take a pic of the individual guns tonight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W
For a start, just take a pic of red or green. The convergence errors don't help....

And I have to say that my 7" Xtra and my 8" XG LC appear sharper than the "Fullscreen" pics - but sharp pics are hard to take with a cheap digital - mine suck.

However there is something REALLY WRONG with your desktop. What happens if you connect a CRT monitor?

-Rajiv
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post #25 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 11:56 AM
 
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It seems to be a basic setup related problem either mechanical or electronic focus and convergence and possibly astig etc. I just think you have a ways to go with your setup.
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post #26 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
"line twitter" ?? :confused: :confused:

What is that?
This is an interlacing artifact. It happens when fine detail is only 1 scan line in size (then it appears and disappears) or with a horizontal edge that is along one scan line (the edge appears to move up and down).

Dave
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post #27 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 04:14 PM
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I get far better quality than that with 7" es machines, but I have experienced the same low quality with other ampro's I've had. I bet if you pull the lenses and look at your LC fluid it's discolored like yellow vegetable oil. That creates the horribly fuzzy image your pictures represent. Once you clean it all up and replace with crystal clear new fluid you'll see a world of difference. (This is provided you actually have good lens and electronic focus which there's no way to tell yet since you have such a horribly awfully crappy pic to begin with.)

If you saw what my 708s can do or any of my previous marquee's you'd kick that ampro all the way back to where it came from. Pretty much any ECP even could beat that pic you've got. Absolutely awful.

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post #28 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm,
very interesting! I wonder what other Ampro owners have to say about this? :confused:

By the way, I have changed the glycol, upgraded the reg amp board, upgraded the CPC magnets to full 2,4,6 pole ones, installed a colored green C element and tweaked the cooling. I have no convergence drifts anymore, the PJ does not overheat (it never did anyway).

Dude, I think I know what I am doing by now. But I am still confused why this Ampro wont put up a better image. :mad:

I think I should pull out my old Sony 1270 and compare it. :eek:

Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema
I get far better quality than that with 7" es machines, but I have experienced the same low quality with other ampro's I've had. I bet if you pull the lenses and look at your LC fluid it's discolored like yellow vegetable oil. That creates the horribly fuzzy image your pictures represent. Once you clean it all up and replace with crystal clear new fluid you'll see a world of difference. (This is provided you actually have good lens and electronic focus which there's no way to tell yet since you have such a horribly awfully crappy pic to begin with.)

If you saw what my 708s can do or any of my previous marquee's you'd kick that ampro all the way back to where it came from. Pretty much any ECP even could beat that pic you've got. Absolutely awful.

Troy

-Rajiv
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post #29 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 04:31 PM
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You've already changed the glycol? When you did that did you clean the thin layer of white muck off the inside of the c-elements and off the face of the tube?

Somethings very very wrong... Compare the focus you get on each color individually and post pics of one color at a time. Blue looks especially fuzzy.

Also you may be driving them all too hard, that'll create blooming, but still not to the extent of bad focus you seem to have. How many hours on those tubes? They can appear like new but be worn to hell and that can also account for horrible focus.

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post #30 of 283 Old 09-21-2006, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,
here are the images I promised this morning.

These three shots were taken at 1280 x 720p

http://funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5040.JPG

Notice the scanlines above?
or are they something else? How do I get rid of them?
How does this compare with the image Scott posted? I think it is close.

I seeScott's image's background is absolutely smooth, how is that achieved???


http://funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5041.JPG

http://funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5042.JPG


These three shots were taken at 1920 x 1080p

http://funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5043.JPG

http://funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5044.JPG

http://funkyhuman.com/hosted_images/IMG_5045.JPG

As we can see, this PJ can resolve 720p just fine. It is having trouble resolving 1080p. It does seem to resolve the vertical 1080 lines. But the Horizontal lines are all just one grey color.

I tried 1080i too, but then the pattern starts flashing. :mad:

So if it can clearly resolve 720p, why is my final image so fuzzy ? OR is it OK and I am asking for something which is not possible?


Any tips ?

-Rajiv
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