Sony G70 vs. Marantz VP-11S1 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 01:49 PM
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CaspianM;

The DLP was a 1080p projector and never ran at any other resolution. The G70 showed more detail at 1080i than at 720p. I contributed this to the downscaling of the source material from 1080 to 720 by the A1. Both PJs were being feed from their own A1 through HDMI.I have been told many times that the screen is too big.

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post #62 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheusbound View Post

I have been told many times that the screen is too big.

how did I miss this..

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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

The screen was a 110" wide Carada that is probably about 1.1 gain (regardless of specs),
--Darin

And of course, this made for a perfect candidate for the comparison......why, oh why was this setup even chosen for this comparison..

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post #63 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 02:31 PM
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Which Carada? The Carada 1.4 gain is really 1.0 gain. And the Carada screens are not great.

Dave
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post #64 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post


And of course, this made for a perfect candidate for the comparison......why, oh why was this setup even chosen for this comparison..

Let me get this straight. You are really asking why Darin chose a set up designed to make the G70 look bad? You're kidding, right?

Dave
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post #65 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 03:01 PM
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Here we go making excuses again...

Loving my Electric Bike!!
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post #66 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

Here we go making excuses again...

Hmm, pointing out that a 110" wide cheap 1.0 gain screen is sub-optimal for one of the PJs is making excuses?

OK, why not just test them by projecting them on a light blue wall at 180" wide if appropriate set up does not matter?

Sorry Mark, here your comment is just silly. If someone put studded snow tires on a Porshe 911 then went to the track to test it and reported it was not that great, it would not be inappropriate to point out the test conditions were flawed. That is the only point here.

I also have to question the set up because G70s don't have bad color saturation, nor do they lack significantly in sharpness, but I'll give benefit of the doubt to the set up and not say outright it was bad.

Dave
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post #67 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 03:34 PM
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I have had a friends Ruby sitting under my G70 for a month now why he finishes his room. So theres been plenty of time to a/b. I think the first post sums it up nicely. The Ruby is sharper, brighter, better 3d in bright scenes but as soon as dark scenes arrive its goodnight Barry White. Even more so with Gamma correction.
Which do I prefer ? well for HD for me the Ruby is the winner but for SD well thats another matter. I just cant get a decent image with PAL SD out or the Ruby. I really need to try it with a decent processor.
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post #68 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

CRT shadow detail becomes an issue relative to some sources and some materials as well

Yeah, was the source being used ever mentioned in this thread? Pardon my lazyiness, but I don't recall seeing what was used on the BNC's.

With CRT, the source is most critical for best image. And as it is, digital has the lead in source for HDTV, because of it's direct digital connection. CRT on the other hand, is at a big disadvantage. Because of the poor conversion devices that we have to use to convert the digital to RGBHV.

So with the mentioning of the new DVI/HDMI converters and possibly the real jewel of one day having 1080P HD-SDI converters available, we'll then have the right good signal to CRT.

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post #69 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99 View Post

Let me get this straight. You are really asking why Darin chose a set up designed to make the G70 look bad? You're kidding, right?

Dave

Are you blaming Darin for the screen that the G70's owner is using in his theater?

FYI the 11S1 is no light cannon producing << 400 lumens in high contrast mode!
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

The screen was a 110" wide Carada that is probably about 1.1 gain (regardless of specs), so a pretty large screen for that kind of gain for either projector. For that setup and that size I would suggest the High Power for the Marantz, much like I am using in my theater

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post #70 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99 View Post

Hmm, pointing out that a 110" wide cheap 1.0 gain screen is sub-optimal for one of the PJs is making excuses?

OK, why not just test them by projecting them on a light blue wall at 180" wide if appropriate set up does not matter?

Sorry Mark, here your comment is just silly. If someone put studded snow tires on a Porshe 911 then went to the track to test it and reported it was not that great, it would not be inappropriate to point out the test conditions were flawed. That is the only point here.

I also have to question the set up because G70s don't have bad color saturation, nor do they lack significantly in sharpness, but I'll give benefit of the doubt to the set up and not say outright it was bad.

Dave

hahahahahaha!!!


OK why don't we? Lets test them both on a light blue wall at 180" It is still a level playing field. I bet if we did that you could see pixels!!

You guys are funny!!

Does it really matter? None of these tests or shootouts are subjective anyway. It is all a matter of opinion and I hope having some fun! When are the test conditions not flawed? How many of these tests have been done in the perfect environment, with the perfect setup, on the perfect screen, using perfectly calibrated test gear, perfect source material and of course last but not least, a perfectly unbiased audience to review the results?

Now Now Now don't go dis'n my setup without even seein' it. You know, in some areas it might be that the Mits was just better! Could the G70 have been setup better, I'm sure it could have been just like every other CRT PJ anywhere in the world. There is no such thing as perfection. The Mits was straight out of the box.

Color saturation was not one of the items mentioned to my recollection. Last time I checked with Avia it was correct.

Why are you guys suprised that a 1080p digital was sharper then a G70? Or even a G90? That doesn't make much sense to me. I would think they would be inherently sharper due to the technology and the lens.

I think Tryg and Darin both wrote some pretty nice things about the G70. It actually faired better than I expected. Best of all, we had fun in the process. I hope we can do it again sometime!

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post #71 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheusbound View Post


I think Tryg and Darin both wrote some pretty nice things about the G70. It actually faired better than I expected. Best of all, we had fun in the process. I hope we can do it again sometime!

I sure do wish that I had a kick ass d!$it*& to put up against my Blended G90 demo in December!!!!!

NOW THAT WOULD BE FUN!!!!!

Cliffy
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post #72 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

Yeah, was the source being used ever mentioned in this thread? Pardon my lazyiness, but I don't recall seeing what was used on the BNC's.

With CRT, the source is most critical for best image. And as it is, digital has the lead in source for HDTV, because of it's direct digital connection. CRT on the other hand, is at a big disadvantage. Because of the poor conversion devices that we have to use to convert the digital to RGBHV.

So with the mentioning of the new DVI/HDMI converters and possibly the real jewel of one day having 1080P HD-SDI converters available, we'll then have the right good signal to CRT.

Charles,

Are you using a DVI card or component with the A-1?

I found a marked improvement in sharpness using a Moome DVI card with the A-1 versus component. Text that is nearly illegible over component is quite sharp over DVI from the A-1. Sharpness from my older Momitsu v880 is also much improved over dvi, when compared to RGBHV from the v880.

Now this is may be simply because the moome card is not as good of a component transcoder as it is a DVI transcoder. And the RGBHV conversion from the v880 is not top shelf, but is PDG.

As MP says, how clean a signal that is sent to the G70 is one variable that must be accounted for in any comparison.

Big D
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post #73 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 08:43 PM
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Hi Don:

I use a DVI input board in the G70.

The image on the G70 is very sharp, just not as sharp as that of a 1080 line 16:9 DLP digital. To me that only seems reasonable. No matter how finely you adjust the beam there is still some degree of roll off on it's egde. It may be very very small indeed but it is there none the less. How can an electron beam traveling across a phosphor field produce a line with a 100% cut off between full emission and complete non emission? What about secondary emission or how the phosphor reacts at the edge of the beam? Add to that the fact that this effect is being magnified from a portion of the CRT that is 3" tall to one that is 62" tall on the screen. What about impurities or the effect of the granularity of the phosphor on the image. Afterall we use this granularity as a means of setting optical focus. It is the imperfections in the grain that we look for. In fact when setting up a CRT this is visable from the location of the projector. Yes, after optical focus is complete this is somewhat masked by completing the EM focus but it is still there. What about light scatter from the optics? Although I'm no expert I do believe that the HD-18 while not a bad lens is not the best lens out there. As I understand it, these lenses have both glass and plastic elements. Anywho, it is these things and probably others that are contributing factors to differences in sharpness. Let alone the fact that my G70 is incapable of seperating 1080 distinct lines within a 16:9 pattern. When displayed as interlaced they must overlap, slightly. I think on some of the tests I have done on this projector that the best I could manage was in the 900 lines range. I'm not real sure of that number it was over a year ago I was doing these tests.

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post #74 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

I sure do wish that I had a kick ass d!$it*& to put up against my Blended G90 demo in December!!!!!

NOW THAT WOULD BE FUN!!!!!

Cliffy

Now that would be freakin awesome! It's not too late, maybe you can make something happen!!

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post #75 of 89 Old 10-31-2006, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheusbound View Post

Now that would be freakin awesome! It's not too late, maybe you can make something happen!!

Unfortunately, the only worthy projector the local shop would have to offer me is Sony. Oh well..........

Did I just say that???????

Cliffy
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post #76 of 89 Old 11-01-2006, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Are you blaming Darin for the screen that the G70's owner is using in his theater?

No, but given his agenda, he'd rather not seek out optomized CRTs to compare with.

As I said before, if he wants to compare, it should be by price. You can pretty much get a G90 stack for the price of the Marantz. So, take the Marantz to Art's and compare.

But, if you want to show how great an 8" is against a new $20,000 PJ, find a good example and compare them.

If the point is public service if you will, i.e. to let people know what they can get for their money, compare a well set up G70 or similar against the current crop of 720p DLPs since that is really what your money can get you.

Dave
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post #77 of 89 Old 11-02-2006, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Person99 View Post

No, but given his agenda, he'd rather not seek out optomized CRTs to compare with.

Some of this stuff is so funny I wonder if you even believe it yourself.
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As I said before, if he wants to compare, it should be by price.

If you even understand basic economics you would be able to understand that if a little digital which could be had new for $2k and a CRT that could be had used for $2k put out identical images and people found out about it, the market value of the CRT would plummet. Then you could go back to your argument that it would be unfair to compare those two projectors because the CRT would sell for much less.

You can keep complaining all you want. If you want to compare by price, then go compare by price. But I'm not going to quit looking for the best stuff I can find in the area I can reasonably drive my stuff to no matter how much you complain about how unfair it is to do these. If you want to suggest a well setup CRT (or 2 CRTs) within 2 hours drive of Seattle that I can compare to, please do.
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You can pretty much get a G90 stack for the price of the Marantz. So, take the Marantz to Art's and compare.

At recent prices I've seen, people can't even get 2 G90s used off ebay for what they could get the Marantz for from AVScience new with a warranty, and that doesn't count any of the other stuff required for a stack. But even besides that, there are people who are willing to believe ridiculous claims in defense of one side or another and your's here is a pretty good test of just what kind of ridiculous things people are willing to believe. Instead of taking an evening and driving to somebody's house who is local so we can compare things, I'm supposed to spend around $600 and probably more getting the myself and my projector halfway across the country and back. And besides that cost and time I am supposed to put in instead of driving to somebody's house some evening, I'm supposed to take a projector that I think is inappropriate for the screen Art has in his theater. His 11' wide screen works well for 2 G90s, but I wouldn't recommend it for one 11S1.

At some point I'll head out to Art's place again. He's a cool guy and I know I would have fun whether I took a projector with me or not. But this accusation where I'm not supposed to drive to somebody's house who is local, but am supposed to fly myself and my stuff halfway across the country, is really stretching to find something to whine about. If Art was local, I would be over there as soon as he had time even though I know the Marantz isn't a good fit for his screen and then I'm sure he would come over to my place to see the Marantz in the setup it is usually in.

In the case here I thought Charles had said the screen was 110" diagonal and not 110" wide, but it didn't make any difference to whether I was going over there or not as I wanted to see his setup and also to compare. I know you don't like us to do these, but many people like to see how one of the new 1080p single chip DLPs compares.

I have already asked on the forum more than once if there is anybody in the Seattle area with a 9" CRT that is well setup that we can compare to. So far the only case that looked promising was somebody with a 9" Marquee who was working with Tim and planning on getting some of Mike Parker's mods. After I mentioned that we might do this, Mike suggested a different plan. Instead of driving to that guy's house, that I pay my own way to fly myself out to where Mike is. I suggested that this guy might be willing to foot the bill if Mike wanted to come out and make sure it looked good, so that somebody would be paying costs for a service instead of either of us paying our own costs. But Mike refused to consider it and instead wanted me to spend my money to go out there.

This whole fantasy Dave has made up of me not seeking out optimized CRTs is pretty funny. Going back and looking at the history, I asked on this forum if I could see a well setup CRT before Dave was even posting here. One guy with a 9" CRT said I could come over and see it. But he was in the middle of building his room, and while I appreciated it, things didn't look all that great under those conditions. So, I asked again. People told me to contact Guy Kuo. So I did. And I offered to bring my Sharp 11k with me so he could see it, instead of being selfish and asking if I could see the CRT without offering anything in return. He then suggested that we compare them. So we did. Later he found an issue with something in there that had kept it from looking its best, although I don't know specifically what that was.

One of the guys there suggested comparing the 11k to his G70 at his place and so that is what we did. We had people from each side there and compared them. And I became friends with the G70 owner and we do comparisons sometimes. I've taken my calibration system there and he spent a while tweaking things with it and I also picked up an HD DVD for him. I would say that the comparisons have helped make his setup better as we see things that can be improved (like shadow detail).

Sometime after that first comparison with the G70, a guy who was one of Mike Parker's customers called me and wanted to see my Qualia 004. He came down and then a couple of weeks later called and said he had been thinking about it a lot. So, we talked about it and I said I would take it there to see how one would work in his room. He had a 9" CRT that had been down with some repairs needed for a while and Curt Palme got it fixed and suggested that we compare the projectors while I was there. This guy had been Mike's customer for years and had gotten stuff from him, as well as had KBK out spending hours trying to get things right. The night before I went there Curt reported that the CRT was looking really good.

So, I go there, setup the sources for the 004 just like I normally would. In about half an hour we start looking at things, and the guy preferred the 004. Then people here tried to figure out why. Mike decides that the problem was that the guy was using a long RGB cable, instead of having his source equipment within 6' of the projector with a short RGB cable as Mike said he should. I find it interesting that the guy had been Mike's customer for years and had tried to get help making things look better, nobody here said anything before the comparison about the CRT looking bad, but after I go there and the guy likes the digital, that seems to go on some list as me searching out poorly setup CRTs. If people want to accuse me of looking for poorly setup CRTs because I went to one of Mike Parker's customer's houses, there isn't much I can do about that.

And as I have said before, if there is anybody within a reasonable distance of Seattle with a well setup 9" CRT who would be willing to do a comparison, please let me know.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #78 of 89 Old 11-02-2006, 07:43 PM
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Yo double D. I found the perfect 9' CRT for your next comparison. Not sure where this guy lives, but his setup should be perfect for your next comparison. Plus you'll stand a better chance at getting another convert..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=745027

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post #79 of 89 Old 11-02-2006, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post


And as I have said before, if there is anybody within a reasonable distance of Seattle with a well setup 9" CRT who would be willing to do a comparison, please let me know.

--Darin

Darin,

If I wasn't in such a DANGEROUS financial situation right now, I would be more than HAPPY to buy you a plane ticket for the blend meet. It's gonna be a great few days before the meet as well. Clarence and I are heading up to Art's place on Wednesday night to hang out and I'm sure it would be a hoot if you were with us............

Cliff
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post #80 of 89 Old 11-02-2006, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

If I wasn't in such a DANGEROUS financial situation right now, I would be more than HAPPY to buy you a plane ticket for the blend meet. It's gonna be a great few days before the meet as well. Clarence and I are heading up to Art's place on Wednesday night to hang out and I'm sure it would be a hoot if you were with us............

I appreciate that. A plane ticket wouldn't kill me right now, but for some reason I was thinking that your meet was on November 9th and I knew I couldn't make that. It is possible that December 9th would actually work for me, but I'll have to see.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #81 of 89 Old 11-02-2006, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I appreciate that. A plane ticket wouldn't kill me right now, but for some reason I was thinking that your meet was on November 9th and I knew I couldn't make that. It is possible that December 9th would actually work for me, but I'll have to see.

--Darin

Ummm.... No. That wouldn't be December 9th for you.

That would be December 6th through the 9th to be exact. You would fly into Midway Airport, we would pick you up and bring you to my Indiana location.

From that point we will have a coctail, bullllssssshit for a bit and head to Art's where you will drool over the GOD LIKE CRT picture that CRT stack has to offer.

At that point we will all participate in what I call "family".

Angela will of course be the life of the party and we will mark our kick ass night in home theater history.

From there, you would hang out with Ken, Clarence, Arli, and I setting up for the meet and enjoying a first hand experience of what 3200X2400 minus 15% has to offer, eat well, have great conversation, and then well, the grand event.

In an ideal world this is what would happen and if you could show up, well, I would be more than happy to make it as comfortable as possible for you.

When it comes to bringing you back to the airport though, well, you will have to just cab it because I will be too tired and hung over to drive you. :^)

Cliffy
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post #82 of 89 Old 11-02-2006, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I have already asked on the forum more than once if there is anybody in the Seattle area with a 9" CRT that is well setup that we can compare to.
--Darin

While you're sleepless in Seattle waiting on someone to take you up on your challenge, I too can't seem to find someone local with a Ruby.

Maybe no one in Seattle actually owns a well setup 9" CRT projector, but I'm finding it very hard to believe that there's no Ruby's in the entire Washinton DC, Maryland and Virginia areas..

The following image is still at 1920x1080p @ 72hz version2 MPmods / Marquee 8500. The tubes are now new, but not yet finished curing, and the projector is not yet properly setup or calibrated. So this weekend I'm going to post this same image after I finish the setup and calibration. Oh, and i'll also have other images that I've not posted yet.

Got Ruby?


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post #83 of 89 Old 11-03-2006, 12:55 AM
 
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Maybe no one in Seattle actually owns a well setup 9" CRT projector

There are at least a handful, but they either aren't around, or aren't really interested in doing a shootout kind of thing.
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post #84 of 89 Old 11-04-2006, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I know a couple G90's but I'm certain they haven't been properly maintained. Plus a shootout will yield the same results as the G70
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post #85 of 89 Old 11-04-2006, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

Tryg, can the Marantz do black?

I've seen a Ruby and I thought it was really good. The only thing it couldn't do was black- it's black level was "twice" as high as a gamma tweaked CRT, even on a grey screen.

Mark

Make that more like than 10 times as high. Not twice. I wish it were so, but it is not even close.
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post #86 of 89 Old 11-04-2006, 03:57 PM
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That last image looks soft to me.

DON'T feed the troll.
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post #87 of 89 Old 11-04-2006, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dokworm View Post

That last image looks soft to me.

I only see softness on the right and left side edges otherwise highly resolved image with somewhat not that great deinetrlacer or it just could be the down converted posted image.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

JVC & NEC 8" CRT with 106" wide Stewart screen. All NHT speakers driven by Pioneer Elite AVR and bluray

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post #88 of 89 Old 05-28-2007, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 008 View Post

I have had a friends Ruby sitting under my G70 for a month now why he finishes his room. So theres been plenty of time to a/b. I think the first post sums it up nicely. The Ruby is sharper, brighter, better 3d in bright scenes but as soon as dark scenes arrive its goodnight Barry White. Even more so with Gamma correction.
Which do I prefer ? well for HD for me the Ruby is the winner but for SD well thats another matter. I just cant get a decent image with PAL SD out or the Ruby. I really need to try it with a decent processor.

008,
where in Kent are you? I'm in Maidstone.
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post #89 of 89 Old 05-28-2007, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cmjohnson View Post

What I'm seeing out of all digital projectors, regardless of resolution, is something that is simply not natural looking. While it may not be the pixel structure itself (At 1080p on an 8 foot wide screen, each pixel is just a 20th of an inch wide and that IS pretty darned small)
but there is something going on that is visually unpleasant. Sometimes it's definitely scaling
artifacts (when a scaler is in the system) and other times, it's macroblocking, but even if
the feed is very high quality, I still see something about the picture that's simply not right
and it can be hard to define.

I don't quite know exactly what it is that bugs me about digital projection, but it's always there.

CJ

Well said. I enjoy the better DLP's on the market today, but IMO, CRT still comes out ahead in terms of naturalness of image. I'm not saying it's a square pixel versus stacked lines thing, but at the same time, it does seem logical that lines stacked to the point that they're barely touching can be to the human eye completely solid. Whereas with a pixel-based display, there are always going to be dots. My hunch is that although at a normal seating distance, those dots do indeed come together to form a very nice image, our eyes are still picking up something that to the brain doesn't quite translate as completely natural.

But digital is easier (...quicker, more seductive. if once you start down the dark path...sorry, couldn't resist), and has greater light output, making it more suitable for a mixed use room. To each their own.....BUT CRT IS BETTER!
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