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post #91 of 145 Old 07-20-2007, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Person. Please stop it. Of course I know that the outputs from the RGB on the Marquee vim to the neck boards are analog. My wires have been improved and are soldered onto the neck boards. The connections to the vim have been improved.

Things get strange at 1080p. Ringing is evident (vertical bars on the left side). No ringing at 720p or 1080i. The most likely culprit is the analog cables going from the Fury to the vim. There will aways be an impedance mismatch between a VGA connector and a BNC anyway. I shall shortly report on whether the more expensive breakout eliminates the ringing. I should have it by Monday.

I have tested with my eyes several different long RGBHV runs.The high bandwidth beldon stuff (1694?) ranks really high. I use it regularly in all my installs. If you reread my post I say any analog transmission median will deteriorate the signal. There is no threashold. Your own words "pretty much" are not the same as the same. Obviously loses will be low the shorter the length. But high requency ringing, shortness might actually make things worse. I've got ringing and ringing often comes from cables. Stayed tuned.

Comparing analog transmission to HDMI, thinks are cleaner, sharper with HDMI. HDMI repeaters can be used to obtain longer lengths. These are not amplifiers by reequalizers and do not result in any loses.

i have lots of expensive speaker cables. There are hugh differences in the sound just by changing cables. Its interesting to change from one brand to another with say 5 peoples in the room. Not saying anything but right down the differences one hears. At the end there is a high correlation of observations between the various listeners. Enough. Not the purpose of this thread.

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post #92 of 145 Old 09-18-2007, 02:21 PM
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There are hugh differences in the sound just by changing cables.

I find this ludicrous given that the only purpose of simple interconnect cable is the make the voltage the same at both ends. The pseudo-science used to justify the ridiculous claims of cable makers give me (an electronics engineer) no end of entertainment.

If your "blind" tests were conducted with variables carefully controlled, perhaps there are effects other than those in the usual advertising and beyond placebo effect. I would very much like to see such a test.

I once opened up my B&W DM17 bookshelf audiophile speakers to find the wire between the terminal and crossover as a 18ga wire and the first component of the crossover was a ~10 ohm series wire wound resistor!

Skin effect at audio frequencies is virtually non existent. Silver is lower resistance but with a few milliamps of low level signal who would ever know? If you want to lower the resistance, use thicker copper! Arrival time variability??? try moving your head 1mm and you will have more affect at sound speed than 1 nano second (or 100ns) at electronic speeds of travel.

I am open to be convinced otherwise but the alchemists of cable convert copper to gold using your gullibility!
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post #93 of 145 Old 09-18-2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Person. Please stop it. Of course I know that the outputs from the RGB on the Marquee vim to the neck boards are analog. My wires have been improved and are soldered onto the neck boards. The connections to the vim have been improved.

Things beside you get strange at 1080p. Ringing is evident (vertical bars on the left side). No ringing at 720p or 1080i. The most likely culprit is the analog cables going from the Fury to the vim. There will aways be an impedance mismatch between a VGA connector and a BNC anyway. I shall shortly report on whether the more expensive breakout eliminates the ringing. I should have it by Monday.

I have tested with my eyes several different long RGBHV runs.The high bandwidth beldon stuff (1694?) ranks really high. I use it regularly in all my installs. If you reread my post I say any analog transmission median will deteriorate the signal. There is no threashold. Your own words "pretty much" are not the same as the same. Obviously loses will be low the shorter the length. But high requency ringing, shortness might actually make things worse. I've got ringing and ringing often comes from cables. Stayed tuned.

Comparing analog transmission to HDMI, thinks are cleaner, sharper with HDMI. HDMI repeaters can be used to obtain longer lengths. These are not amplifiers by reequalizers and do not result in any loses.

i have lots of expensive speaker cables. There are hugh differences in the sound just by changing cables. Its interesting to change from one brand to another with say 5 peoples in the room. Not saying anything but right down the differences one hears. At the end there is a high correlation of observations between the various listeners. Enough. Not the purpose of this thread.

Mark, why diverge on audio cables??? Audio cables do not have required technical specs like video/digital audio cables.

Your 9" CRT still uses those Granite Audio video cables that Mike Parker soldered therein, right? Those cables have been TDRed and are high bandwith
to handle full 1080p yet are thin enough to solder nicely with the miniplugs on your CRT main board, right? This is a case of objectively better speced cables
and subjective testing proving better picture as well, right?

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post #94 of 145 Old 09-18-2007, 06:06 PM
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Mike, I looked at the pics (5,6,7) you posted and there seems to be abundant black crush and loss of detail in the dark areas. I could beleive the pics are not good representations of what you actually get due to the limits of digital photography. There are just areas of black merging with others. Perhaps I am expecting too much....
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post #95 of 145 Old 09-20-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b View Post

Mike, I looked at the pics (5,6,7) you posted and there seems to be abundant black crush and loss of detail in the dark areas. I could beleive the pics are not good representations of what you actually get due to the limits of digital photography. There are just areas of black merging with others. Perhaps I am expecting too much....

Not sure, but on the two PC's that i have here, one is showing that problem, while it's not on the other one. So it may have been posted at the time using the one that's not showing it.

Plus, you can't really determine "black crush" from a screenshot. Just a bit of light in the room could create the same problem for the camera, especially when it's in the "AUto" mode.

Below is another one (dark) from that movie, that I've taking recently using some things different in the chain, but in a more light controlled room. Due note that the Marquee has since been calibrated somewhat (using an optical comparator).


It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

 

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.  Now available!

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post #96 of 145 Old 09-20-2007, 09:12 AM
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Plus, you can't really determine "black crush" from a screenshot. Just a bit of light in the room could create the same problem for the camera, especially when it's in the "AUto" mode.

I agree, screen shots are SO limited especially when you get to the upper reaches of performance. My rule is that when I se them and they look good, the actual is at least as good but when not so good one can't be sure it isn't the screen shot.

You should just have an open house for anyone droppng by maryland to see for ourselves .

I am still wondering if the DVI/DVI repeater will produce as good a results for gamma. Anyone know?
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post #97 of 145 Old 09-20-2007, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b View Post

You should just have an open house for anyone droppng by maryland to see for ourselves .

That invitation is in place. Especially now that I've been finally dialing the 8500 in over the past week, and will be putting the covers back on before the month is out.

Yes, do come see what the camera will not capture. MY 8500 loves to show off..

It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

 

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post #98 of 145 Old 09-20-2007, 10:00 AM
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Here's another very dark one from my stash. In person it's much different than what seen in the screenshot. And I don't do anything to the shots, they are 100% un-touched.


It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

 

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.  Now available!

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post #99 of 145 Old 09-20-2007, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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You stash Cuban cigars, not screen shots!

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post #100 of 145 Old 09-20-2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You stash Cuban cigars, not screen shots!

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have a Cuban or two instead of all the screen shots.

But that's just me.

Now a member of the Marquee Maniacs Club
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post #101 of 145 Old 09-21-2007, 04:19 AM
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FWIW, I have a HDFury, with a breakout cable attached to the output of it. The breakkout consists of a short, 1 foot, VGA cable that goes into a box. From there five RG59/U coax cables (Alpha-wire) run about 17 feet (5 meters) to my NEC projector. Picture is just fine. Some black crush, but I think that is due to the HDDVD player I have. So YES, The Fury does work with long analog cables, if it is not just a standard VGA cable.
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post #102 of 145 Old 09-21-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasW View Post

FWIW, I have a HDFury, with a breakout cable attached to the output of it. The breakkout consists of a short, 1 foot, VGA cable that goes into a box. From there five RG59/U coax cables (Alpha-wire) run about 17 feet (5 meters) to my NEC projector. Picture is just fine. Some black crush, but I think that is due to the HDDVD player I have. So YES, The Fury does work with long analog cables, if it is not just a standard VGA cable.

Aren't you better off to use a short VGA-BNC to the Nec but use a longer HDMI-DVI? HDFury has limitaions driving such a long anolog run.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

JVC & NEC 8" CRT with 106" wide Stewart screen. All NHT speakers driven by Pioneer Elite AVR and bluray

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post #103 of 145 Old 09-21-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

Aren't you better off to use a short VGA-BNC to the Nec but use a longer HDMI-DVI? HDFury has limitaions driving such a long anolog run.

Correct.

Longer cable runs *may* work, but they're likely to be problematic and also overheat/overdrive the HDfury. I would not do what the previous poster did by driving 17' cables with the HDfury. I'm surprised it works at all.

The higher the resolution, the less likely it is to work correctly as well.

Kal
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post #104 of 145 Old 09-22-2007, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Correct.

Longer cable runs *may* work, but they're likely to be problematic and also overheat/overdrive the HDfury. I would not do what the previous poster did by driving 17' cables with the HDfury. I'm surprised it works at all.

The higher the resolution, the less likely it is to work correctly as well.

Kal

OK, thanks for pointing my attention to that I really have not used the HDFury that much with the long cables, still figuring out what would be the best setup with my context variables of sweet spot resolution, cable run in room, sources etc. The 17' RG59/U cable set w BNC ends and VGA breakout box was made years ago to be able to connect a PC to my pj. Also worked well with my Momitsu DVD player as source.

I might be able to make use of my Gefen VGA extender, that I used for another configuration but do not use any more. That should put enough "Oompf" into the cables and spare the HDFury of potential overdrive.

The alternative of buying a quality DVI cable does not seem very appealing at all... an AudioQuest cable for example of sufficient length, 17', is about $350 here in Sweden

Thomas
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post #105 of 145 Old 09-22-2007, 03:38 AM
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BTW, the Gefen extender can send an analog VGA signal up to 150 feet, using a Cat 5 network cable. Bandwith is up to 120 MHz, which is more than enough for my config.

I'd still have to skip my old trusted VGA to BNC cable set, but save the expense of a $350 DVI cable.
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post #106 of 145 Old 09-22-2007, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasW View Post

BTW, the Gefen extender can send an analog VGA signal up to 150 feet, using a Cat 5 network cable. Bandwith is up to 120 MHz, which is more than enough for my config.

I'd still have to skip my old trusted VGA to BNC cable set, but save the expense of a $350 DVI cable.

The Gefen will work great, as would an Extron box or other items. There's a lot of choices.

Or just get a $40-$50 good quality HDMI->DVI cable. You don't need to spend $350 on 'boutique' cables. In the US stores like bluejeanscables.com and monoprice.com are popular and make good cables.

Kal
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post #107 of 145 Old 09-23-2007, 04:27 PM
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Is there anyway to get the HDfury to go into a non HDCP DVI on the back of my projector?
Thanks
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post #108 of 145 Old 09-23-2007, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sdarnell View Post

Is there anyway to get the HDfury to go into a non HDCP DVI on the back of my projector?
Thanks

No. The HDfury only outputs RGBHV (analog). Take a look at Moome's EXT-HD box instead. It has both a RGBHV (analog) and DVI (digitial output). See: http://www.curtpalme.com/EXT-HD.shtm

The box removes HDCP before sending the signal to DVI output. This should only be used for testing purposes of course.
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post #109 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Correct.

Longer cable runs *may* work, but they're likely to be problematic and also overheat/overdrive the HDfury. I would not do what the previous poster did by driving 17' cables with the HDfury. I'm surprised it works at all.

The higher the resolution, the less likely it is to work correctly as well.

Kal

Okay, I am really confused now. I thought it was the other way around. I thought the HDFury had problems driving longer HDMI/DVI runs and not the analog VGA/BNC cable? Now I'm curious if my setup is going to work. I plan to run a 6' HDMI cable from my receiver to a HDMI-DVI adapter which will connect to the HD Fury. The HDFury will then be connected directly to Kim's transcoder at the VGA in port and a 10' VGA to BNC cable goes to the projector. My HDFury should deliver today so I guess I will find out soon enough.
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post #110 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post

Okay, I am really confused now. I thought it was the other way around. I thought the HDFury had problems driving longer HDMI/DVI runs and not the analog VGA/BNC cable?

The HDFury does not have a cable driver/output stage so it cannot drive analog output (RGB) cables longer than 4-6".

You cannot use an input (DVI/HDMI) digital cable longer than 16' without also using an external power supply. The HDFury draws power from the HDMI/DVI cable. Cables longer than 16' may cause problems due to voltage drop. Solution is to use an external HDfury power supply (comes included in the HDfury Advanced Kit or can be bought separately).

Quote:


Now I'm curious if my setup is going to work. I plan to run a 6' HDMI cable from my receiver to a HDMI-DVI adapter which will connect to the HD Fury. The HDFury will then be connected directly to Kim's transcoder at the VGA in port and a 10' VGA to BNC cable goes to the projector. My HDFury should deliver today so I guess I will find out soon enough.

Your setup will work fine. Your HDMI input cable is short, and your output analog cable is non-existance (very short) as you have it plugged directly into the RTC-2200 transcoder. The transcoder *does* have a cable driver so you can therefore use a longer output cable since the transcoder will be driving the cable, not the HDfury.

Kal
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post #111 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

The HDFury does not have a cable driver/output stage so it cannot drive analog output (RGB) cables longer than 4-6".

You cannot use an input (DVI/HDMI) digital cable longer than 16' without also using an external power supply. The HDFury draws power from the HDMI/DVI cable. Cables longer than 16' may cause problems due to voltage drop. Solution is to use an external HDfury power supply (comes included in the HDfury Advanced Kit or can be bought separately).

Your setup will work fine. Your HDMI input cable is short, and your output analog cable is non-existance (very short) as you have it plugged directly into the RTC-2200 transcoder. The transcoder *does* have a cable driver so you can therefore use a longer output cable since the transcoder will be driving the cable, not the HDfury.

Kal

Thanks Kal, this is the way I understood it to be but the previous statement had me a little concerned. I guess my cables are not long enough to worry about. Since as you say, the transcoder does have a cable driver I may get a slightly longer analog cable. The 10' one barely gets me into my closet and the transcoder would be difficult to reach at ceiling height. I may replace the 10' cable with a 15' one just to get the transcoder closer to my other equipment.
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post #112 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 08:45 AM
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FWIW, I have the exact same setup as you but a long RGB cable:

Source -> 6' HDMI to DVI cable -> HDFury -> Kim's transcoder (plugged into VGA
passthru) -> 25' RGBHV cable

Works great!

My RGB cable's from bettercables.com (bought before they went all 'boutique' and tripled their prices).

Kal
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post #113 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 08:52 AM
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Great! I am trying to have realistic expectations but if the picture improves at all I will be happy. Not to mention a cleaner cable pile behind the receiver. I bought all my cables from Monoprice and though I have not tried them yet, they appear to be very good quality, especially considering what I paid for them.
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post #114 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 04:24 PM
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Hi everyone, I found this topic via google and I wonder if anyone can help me?

I'm hoping to use a HDFury device with a VGA CAT5 extender as it's not practical to run a video cable to where I need it and I already have a CAT5 cable in place ( I intend to buy a pair of homeplugs to take over my networking duties!)

I want to be able to use my PS3 from an upstairs room using a PC monitor and keep my PS3 in my living room downstairs.

I already have the CAT5 VGA extender and have a pair of sennheiser rs120 wireless headphones, the PS3 controller works fine from upstairs so I can control the PS3, I can hear it, I now just need to see it!

I have done a trial using an s-video to VGA adapter which converts the PS3's s-video signal to VGA, which is then fed into the CAT5 extender, through the CAT5 cable, into the CAT5 receiver then into my monitor.

This worked ok, but due to the low res of the s-video signal the picture looked pretty poor on the monitor.

What I now want to do is use the HDFury to convert the PS3's HDMI signal to VGA (and remove HDCP) and then feed that into the CAT5 extender as before.

Does anyone think this will work?

The only other problems I can think of is that I would need to switch the video output on the PS3 before going upstairs, I have heard of people remembering the button press sequence required to toggle outputs, although I'm not convinced.

I could have purchased a 2nd PS3, but as I have all I need (in theory) except for the HDFury it won't actually cost me much to achieve what I'm trying to do.
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post #115 of 145 Old 09-24-2007, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnie_walker View Post

What I now want to do is use the HDFury to convert the PS3's HDMI signal to VGA (and remove HDCP) and then feed that into the CAT5 extender as before.

The HDfury will convert the PS3's HDMI signal to VGA (and remove HDCP). That part is covered and works.

What's a CAT5 extender? I assume it's using CAT5 to extend VGA cable, but be aware that the HDfury does not have a line driver/output stage on the output so it CANNOT drive cables longer than a foot or two (or preferrably only 4-6 inches).

If this CAT5 extender is a passive device that simply extends VGA cables then it will not work. You need to use a box with a line driver. A non-passive switcher, or Extron line driver box would work.

Kal
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post #116 of 145 Old 09-25-2007, 07:24 AM
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Well, I got my HD Fury yesterday and while it's way to early to make a judgment, I did notice something different. In particular with my HD cable box using component video. I had Superman Returns recorded on the DVR and did a little A-B comparison of component and HDMI through the HD Fury. The HDMI looked much brighter and I could not figure out why. There was one scene where Superman pushes the big rock into space and then falls backwards towards Earth. Through component the background of black space looked very black like it should. Through HDMI it was kind of gray but I could also see detail in the background that I did not notice before, namely the continents and land masses on the planet surface. I went back and forth between the two a few times just to make sure I was really seeing what I thought I was. Then I checked my projectors settings and was surprised to see that my brightness and contrast were set back at 50. Through component I had these set around 40 or 45 because I had turned gamma up with Kim's transcoder and was able to turn brightness and contrast down. Well, it seems that maybe I had them too low as I was losing detail in scenes. I guess when the projector sensed this HDMI signal it set picture settings back to default. So, I'm a little confused about what looks correct at this point. I have read however that component looks better through my particular cable box than does HDMI. I then tried the HDMI/HDFury through my HD-A2 player. This looked much better and blacks were very black and I was not losing detail either. I also got to check out upscaled SD DVD through this player for the first time and it looked surprisingly good. So, I have a lot of tweaking to do (especially with the gamma on my transcoder and picture settings on the projector) before I can make a fair statement about the HDFury.
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post #117 of 145 Old 09-25-2007, 08:00 AM
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FWIW, I use component for my satellite box (ExpressVu HD-PVR: A Dish 942 clone) because it's just simpler for TV. The HDFury's for Blu-ray as that's where the difference in quality lies.

Your projector can't "sense" an HDMI signal... it's being fed an RGBHV signal by the HDfury. Your projector can't know where the signal's coming from. There's no way that your source devices or the HDfury was able to set your contrast/brightness back to 50/50. You likely just used a different resolution/refresh rate combo and your projector used a new memory setting and the defaults are 50/50.

As with every time you add a source device or change your signal path somehow, you should recheck your brightness/contrast settings to ensure that they're still valid. When I added the HDfury into my signal path, the image was so much punchier that I ended up turning down the contrast by 5-10 points.

Kal
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post #118 of 145 Old 09-25-2007, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

FWIW, I use component for my satellite box (ExpressVu HD-PVR: A Dish 942 clone) because it's just simpler for TV. The HDFury's for Blu-ray as that's where the difference in quality lies.

Your projector can't "sense" an HDMI signal... it's being fed an RGBHV signal by the HDfury. Your projector can't know where the signal's coming from. There's no way that your source devices or the HDfury was able to set your contrast/brightness back to 50/50. You likely just used a different resolution/refresh rate combo and your projector used a new memory setting and the defaults are 50/50.

As with every time you add a source device or change your signal path somehow, you should recheck your brightness/contrast settings to ensure that they're still valid. When I added the HDfury into my signal path, the image was so much punchier that I ended up turning down the contrast by 5-10 points.

Kal

Thanks Kal. I'm sure you are correct and I should have known better about the signal entry. I have been so concerned with convergence that I really have not accurately set brightness and contrast settings yet. I am curious what the term "crushing blacks" means? I find it difficult to set picture levels to the point that they make very dark blacks without losing overall detail. I have the HD verison of the DVE disc but I must confess that I don't fully understand the grayscale ramps and pluge patterns, etc.
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post #119 of 145 Old 09-25-2007, 11:30 AM
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Well I now have my HDFury and purchased a HDMI female to DVI male adapter so that I can use a HDMI cable from the back of the PS3 plugged into the adapter, then into the HDFury and finally into the CAT5 extender, frustratingly though I now need a VGA female to female adapter!

So tomorrow I'll get the VGA 'gender changer' and then I'll be able to test everything.

As for the CAT5 extender, as far as I'm aware it's active not passive, it has it's own power supply for both the sender and receiver units:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?...ender&doy=25m9

In theory I think it should work, in fact when I switched on the PS3, even without the HDFury being connected to the CAT5 extender, the PS3 detected a 'display' and asked if I wanted to use the HDMI output instead of the S-video output I'm currently using to connect my CRT TV.

My only concern is whether the CAT5 extender will be able to handle the HD signal, it may only work with 1024x768 and not 1280x720 ?
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post #120 of 145 Old 09-25-2007, 11:42 AM
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If the CAT5 extender won't work with a resolution of 1280x720 then I may have to use 720x576 from the PS3's HDMI output

It would still be better than an s-video signal though.
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