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post #451 of 5491 Old 09-30-2007, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

Ahh...so that's where Ken has been!

Yes, he has been a busy man.

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post #452 of 5491 Old 09-30-2007, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Since this is the top of the list, I'm doing a shameless repost.

I love these shots.

Uh huh. Yeah, that's right, I'm bad. I'm bad.......

Art Sonneborn King Kong and Serenity HD DVD 1080P 14ft wide 2:35 Cinemascope HT5000 3 Chip DLP:































What an AWESOME day yesterday at Art's place. The bar has been risen. Final D6500 calibration produced 21 FOOT LAMBERTS on a 14ft wide Stewart 1.3 gain Cinemascope with Electronic Masking.

Cliffy
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post #453 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 12:55 AM
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I know this is the CRT forum, but I had to see what my Benq 7700 shots would look like next to your shot.

I'm sure if we had them side by side with moving video, you guys would walk all over the 7700.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

Here's another. Post this, and I'll show you what to compare.



The Mod Squad: New vs. Classic TV Series Opening https://vimeo.com/63119329
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post #454 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

I know this is the CRT forum, but I had to see what my Benq 7700 shots would look like next to your shot.

I'm sure if we had them side by side with moving video, you guys would walk all over the 7700.

Looks great. Slight difference in the white paint in the lower left corner... you've got a blue push or Mike's picture has a red push. The true reference is probably in the middle.

Slight washout or clipping in his collar and the shadow under his collar... slightly overexposed?

You've captured more texture detail in the goosebumps/pores/whiskers in his neck.

Interesting how your clouds look almost transparent... I'd have to see the true reference frame to know whch is more accurate.

But for the most part, a very comparable screenshot.
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post #455 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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G90 Stack:



BenQ:



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post #456 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 06:26 AM
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Here's a few more Blue Planet images I took this morning:
















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post #457 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 06:28 AM
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I like these for colors and naturalness:




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post #458 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Looks great. Slight difference in the white paint in the lower left corner... you've got a blue push or Mike's picture has a red push. The true reference is probably in the middle.

Slight washout or clipping in his collar and the shadow under his collar... slightly overexposed?

You've captured more texture detail in the goosebumps/pores/whiskers in his neck.

Interesting how your clouds look almost transparent... I'd have to see the true reference frame to know whch is more accurate.

But for the most part, a very comparable screenshot.

Bond's shades are crisper on the BenQ, esp. at the white straight line of reflection of what's under them on the lower edge of the visible arm of the glasses. The reflection of Bond's skin thru them, in the upper part of his right eye, also shows more delineation. As does the shadow area under the visible part of Bond's face, just below the chinline.

The upper photo shows Bond's head as I think it really is, while the lower photo shows it somewhat squashed - a circle would be not a circle, if shown on the lower screen. Same for the scoop under the prop on the plane's engine. It's more oval on the upper picture, more round on the lower picture. Mike, you might want to check your vertical height - the h to w ratio is different between your pic and his, and the BenQ's is most likely more accurate, being fixed pixel. My eye tells me his is more accurate than yours, even without a circle to refer to.


A reference circle is hard to come by in HD, on pattern generators. The algorithms it takes for displaying them accurately are thru the roof according to Greg Rogers, creator of the Accupel, which is why his HDG 2000 and 3000 do not contain them, even tho the excellent patterns they do contain allow for stellar calibrations. As a calibrator, up until HD discs you had to spend serious $ to have access to circles via pattern generators, to use for H vs. V sizing and linearities in HD.

Now, with HD discs, you can find circles in movies to use. Or with a DVR, capture either ABC's or CBS's logos, to use.

Perfect circles in your HD video material allow for perfect sizing of horizontal width vs. vertical height, which have to be in perfect proportion to each other for a circle to look like a circle.

When a circle looks like a circle, only then you can trust that everything else in your video material will sustain the maximum amount of suspension of disbelief possible, in the geometry of your image structure. That's why the better patterns contain not just a master circle, but also a circle in each corner.


Be aware also that "blue push" has nothing to do with grayscale, and thus cannot accurately be used to talk about white, which is in the grayscale domain of black and white video material. It's tempting to use, and SOUNDS like it should be an accurate description of what's happening.

But the word "push" only kicks in when colors are present and are thus being decoded. As in "red push": where whenever there is color on the screen being discriminated out, there's significantly more red intensity being shown than there is green or blue color intensity, on each color involved.

Red push is the same as blue/green diminish. With a red pushed scenario, when fleshtones are being prioritized - which is the ONLY way to fly, in our endless quest for suspension of disbelief - if color is being decoded and you don't have the critical color decoding registers in your scaler, the blue isolation/filter test becomes invalid and untrustable anymore, and completely unusable. What's the point of having blue be perfect when red is overdone, making fleshtones look ruddy and sunburned, ruining your suspension of disbelief? In a red pushed scenario, the entire color intensity level has to come down till you're at accuracy in fleshtones. All the other colorations have to take a back seat.

As a result, after reworking color and possibly tint as well, the fleshtones finally come in at accurate and perhaps even breathtaking - but with red push the vivid blues and greens of a peacock feather in the same scene become wilted, and limp. Not vivid, like they are supposed to be.

It's too late once you're at the pj, in pure RGB. If present, relinearization of it has to be accomplished somewhere along the way. Luckily enough, the better scalers don't mess with the color decoding like the manufacturers of RPTVs do, and red push is not a factor. In HD passthru on a scaler, again you get whatever the mix was that the HD telecine guys designed in, which is usually completely accurate.


What you are talking about on the white of the plane is there, I can see it and I agree - but the more accurate terminology in calibration terms is that the white you are referring to is more bluish on one and more reddish on the other.


I liked using the term "push" for that purpose also until my eyes were opened by Paul Carleton, creator of Home Theater SPot.com. He used to be a video cameraman, and they would realign the color linearity of their cams each day, before each shoot for the day.

While in Seattle doing a Mit 73" back when they had the critical "push" registers in their sm, using the AVIA test patterns he showed me the coloration errors in the factory setup and demo'd how to realign them, which can be done in HD with the proper patterns as well. AVIA was the best resource for such things back then, still is, at least on regular DVD.

He used a scene from Shakespeare in Love to demo the before and after - the scene where Kit is talking with Shakespeare in the basement bar just after the announcement of the new play, the closeup on Kit's face and outfit - and my jaw just dropped when he showed me the difference between red pushed color rendition and completely linear color rendition. I had had no idea, up till that point, what "red push" was all about, and naively thought that it could be cured via color and tint, or grayscale.

NOT. The difference between accurate colorations and red pushed colorations was absolutely staggering. The doubletake left a crick in my neck...



I was a whiz at grayscale and image structure by then, and thought I knew it all! But this has nothing to do with image structure and is AFTER the grayscale has already been taken care of, to D6500K accuracy.

It was a new curve I was being thrown, and decided I'd better master it on the spot - or should I say, SPot...



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post #459 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Be aware also that "blue push" has nothing to do with grayscale, and thus cannot accurately be used to talk about white, which is in the grayscale domain of black and white video material. It's tempting to use, and SOUNDS like it should be an accurate description of what's happening.

What you are talking about on the white of the plane is there, I can see it and I agree - but the more accurate terminology in calibration terms is that the white you are referring to is more bluish on one and more reddish on the other.

Mr Bob

Fine... "Bluish". Not "blue push". My apologies.

"Goosebumps" probably isn't an anatomically correct term either.

And "plane" is a geometry term, not proper aviation nomenclature.
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post #460 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Fine... "Bluish". Not "blue push". My apologies.

"Goosebumps" probably isn't an anatomically correct term either.

And "plane" is a geometry term, not proper aviation nomenclature.

I stand corrected...




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post #461 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 11:19 AM
 
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I have Blue Planet IMAX on region 2 DVD and it looks breathtakingly bountifully wondrous. Thou I wish I had a video projector to display the image as large as possible. But for now the CRT TV monitor would have to suffice.
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post #462 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

The upper photo shows Bond's head as I think it really is, while the lower photo shows it somewhat squashed - a circle would be not a circle, if shown on the lower screen. Same for the scoop under the prop on the plane's engine. It's more oval on the upper picture, more round on the lower picture. Mike, you might want to check your vertical height - the h to w ratio is different between your pic and his, and the BenQ's is most likely more accurate, being fixed pixel. My eye tells me his is more accurate than yours, even without a circle to refer to.

Mr Bob

Dang, that means I'm robbing myself of resolving power with the vertical squashed.

Good eye Bob. thanks.

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post #463 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

Dang, that means I'm robbing myself of resolving power with the vertical squashed.

Good eye Bob. thanks.



Yeah, I think you'll get higher resolving power when corrected, because you have to squash the horizontal a little more than it is now in there, to make the h and v even. I am sure you are maxed out on your vertical, and that your height is already perfectly matching your screen height, with the proper overscan and blanking.

Which means your horizontal must be too far out there beyond the edges, and needs to be taken in, to make a circle become a circle. At which point you'll be showing more of your pic horizontally, once taken in, densilizing - is that a word? - your horizontal rez a bit once taken in.


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post #464 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 11:48 AM
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Actually, I'll only need to increase the vertical. I had done so already, but since I don't have a Blu-Ray pattern for this, I had to eyeball it.

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post #465 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

Actually, I'll only need to increase the vertical. I had done so already, but since I don't have a Blu-Ray pattern for this, I had to eyeball it.


Cool. Then you'll lose just a wee bit of tightness in your vertical rez, but not enough to matter -


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post #466 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 12:28 PM
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Mike, which Blu-Ray titles do you have? If you have any from Sony Pictures, all you have to do is type "SONY" (7669) on the menu to get a great 1080P test pattern.

I'm still playing with all of the settings on my new camera. It seems like I have to throttle it back a lot more to avoid over-saturation and over-exposure (not just with "Crank" which is intentionally over-saturated)...







G90 with 9861 hours, 9.5' wide, blu-ray at 1080P, PS3 HDMI to moome IFB with gamma.
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post #467 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Mike, which Blu-Ray titles do you have? If you have any from Sony Pictures, all you have to do is type "SONY" (7669) on the menu to get a great 1080P test pattern.

What are you all using for HD-DVD test patterns?
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post #468 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

What are you all using for HD-DVD test patterns?

I use the DVE HD disc and also the HD-Net test pattern that I have recorded on my DVR. I hear that this pattern will no longer be played on HD-Net so I'm glad I have it recorded.
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post #469 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:20 PM
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I use the DVE HD disc and also the HD-Net test pattern that I have recorded on my DVR. I hear that this pattern will no longer be played on HD-Net so I'm glad I have it recorded.

Does the DVE disc have good geometry, convergence, and greyscale patterns?
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post #470 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

Does the DVE disc have good geometry, convergence, and greyscale patterns?

In my opinion it does but then again, I don't fully understand the patterns enough to know if they are good ones or not. I have been using the convergence patterns more than anything else during setup of my XG. I figure I can fool with greyscale later once I get the thing converged properly. I like the convergence patterns with circles in each corner and the 90 degree angles at each screen corner center.
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post #471 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:35 PM
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Right. I just need something so that when Ken or Terry come over I can get my money's worth .
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post #472 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

Does the DVE disc have good geometry, convergence, and greyscale patterns?

Don't know about DVE, it's unpopular because of its extremely unfriendly navigation so I only use its filters, but I know the original VE did NOT have good geometry patterns, tho it did have good grayscale and color patterns. I suspect all patterns on DVE are perfect.

AVIA does NOT have good grayscale patterns - the mastering was done correctly by Guy Kuo but something got screwed up in the production - but that's its only flaw.

I use AVIA for geometry, convergence and color decoding - and for having actual measurements for color decoding and overscan - and the old VE DVD for grayscale. If you have one, guard it with your life - it's no longer available.

The new DVE does have some of the best color filters I have seen, tho, for fixed pixel displays. If you can't use pure color isolation, as is simple on triple-gun ceiling pjs -

Have not used the HD DVE, this info is only for the regular DVE, tho I would suspect them to be identical except for the scanrate formatting -


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post #473 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

Right. I just need something so that when Ken or Terry come over I can get my money's worth .

Yeah, I hope to be able to do this one day but until then I'm just trying to do the best I can on my own.
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post #474 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post



G90 with 9861 hours, 9.5' wide, blu-ray at 1080P, PS3 HDMI to moome IFB with gamma.


Clarence, that's an unbelieveable set of pix, for having almost 10,000 hours on your rig!




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post #475 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 02:24 PM
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Isn't AVIA fullscreen... so the geometry would be off?
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post #476 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

Isn't AVIA fullscreen... so the geometry would be off?

When AVIA is played in Pan & Scan, the Widescreen Enhanced Circlehatch Grid is in perfect 16x9. AVIA has to be played in non-letterbox format.

Overscan grid, under Special Tests, is also in perfect 16x9, as I am sure are others, but these are the 2 I use most.

Whenever using AVIA, always turn on the Repeat Pattern function - far lowest left corner - before proceeding. That way you don't have to worry about the patterns advancing on you every few minutes without your consent. It will then stay with the pattern you put it to, for as long as you need it.


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post #477 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

AVIA does NOT have good grayscale patterns - the mastering was done correctly by Guy Kuo but something got screwed up in the production - but that's its only flaw.

What's wrong exactly? Thanks
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post #478 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 06:09 PM
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The new DVE HDDVD has great convergence,geometry and gray scale patterns.

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post #479 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NautikaL View Post

What's wrong exactly? Thanks

Grayscale patterns are slewed towards the red.

If you are using component, you can disco Pb and Pr and you'll wind up with empirical b/w on the Y-only connector. Or if you are on S, disco the chrominance leg and you'll have just the luminance. In which case the AVIA patterns work just fine.

Tho the owners who frequent this thread definitely won't be using S, and probably not component, either.


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post #480 of 5491 Old 10-01-2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post


If you are using component, you can disco Pb and Pr and you'll wind up with empirical b/w on the Y-only connector. Or if you are on S, disco the chrominance leg and you'll have just the luminance. In which case the AVIA patterns work just fine.

Okay that made no sense the first time around until I figured out disco meant disconnect .

How about this... is it fine to use via HDMI or is it still skewed towards the red? Thanks.
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