Screenshot War!!!!!!!! - Page 174 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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CRT Projectors > Screenshot War!!!!!!!!
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 06:28 AM 01-19-2012
Hey Kev, where you are you?

I'm getting closer, but still have a few more things to do before calibration. Just thought I'd give you a few more UN-touched shots to mimic.. .until I'm truly ready.

Full 1080P from the Blue Ray directly into the Moome/Marquee


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Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 06:43 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

Hey Kev, where you are you?

I'm getting closer, but still have a few more things to do before calibration. Just thought I'd give you a few more UN-touched shots to mimic.. .until I'm truly ready.

Posted some on the previous page http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21505092 scene from Dark Knight, also a few from Sin City.

Get with it man plenty to compare with no excuses just show us what you got.
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 07:57 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post


Get with it man plenty to compare with no excuses just show us what you got.

So you want me to join you in showing shots of how well the projectors do black and gamma. And we judge this through our various monitors..

I know you at least have Baraka. So could you post comparison shots?
kal's Avatar kal 08:44 AM 01-19-2012
C'mon guys. Screenshots are fun so stop taking it very seriously. Use them for the meaningless fun they are but stop comparing. It's really meaningless.


Screenshots can not in any way ever represent what you actually see in person, so they cannot be used to compare one projector with another - especially when two people are taking pictures with different cameras.

Some people are fond of saying "these are pictures directly out of the camera" as if there's no processing done. These people are completely ignorant about how digital cameras work and I pull my hair out every time I hear someone say it.

To use an analogy, it's as illogical as thinking that a song you're listening too on your stereo sounds *EXACTLY* like the original band live in person because you have your bass and treble controls on your stereo set to '0' (disabled). I'm bypassing the tone controls so therefore it sounds exactly like it did in the recording studio live and in person right? Yeah right. Everyone seems to understand why that doesn't work, but with cameras for some reason people are truly ignorant about how they work.

Cameras do all sorts of intensive *INTERNAL* processing you're not aware of (and can't and wouldn't want to disable) to recreate the JPG image including adding sharpening (it has to), making up the colours (digital cameras don't understand the concept of colour - they estimate), setting the black level to what it "thinks" is right based on the average picture level by adjusting exposure (most times the any camera will make the darkest colour black so all projectors end up with great black level), and so on. It then uses lossy compression (reducing detail) to create the final JPG.

Then to make matters worse, people take these photos, reduce the resolution to well below the original 1080p resolution, upload them to picture sharing sites which reduce the resolution and compress them even further, and then expect people looking at them on uncalibrated monitors to compare, like it means something. Huh?

Want to REALLY show what it looks like? The photos need to be shot in RAW format (only available on better cameras, mostly DSLR cameras) to bypass the internal processing and then the person has to use a calibrated work flow process using various software in order apply this processing correctly and carefully using a *calibrated* monitor and then view them on the *calibrated* monitor. Processing needs to be done. There's no way around it. This includes applying a certain level of sharpness (yes, sharpness), choosing and applying lighting colour temperature (hard to do), white balance to set the colours (digital cameras don't understand colour - it needs to be told), correct exposure to get black levels right to match what's seen in person (not what the camera thinks is black), and so on. It's very tricky.

Even if that's done correctly, a camera has a much lower contrast ratio than what our projectors do. We can't capture all the subtle gradients of light from black to white. To get around this you need to take multiple photos at different exposures and combine them using a process called HDR (high dynamic range).

Moral of the story:

I've seen shots of really cheap $50 projectors that look phenominal because the person knows what they're doing.
I've seen shots of really expensive $50,000 projectors that look like crap because the person doesn't know what they're doing.

Good screenshots are more an example of how lucky someone is or how good of a photographer they are.

Have fun, but please don't take it seriously, and please nobody respond saying "my photos are untouched". I'm going to kill someone.

Kal
nashou66's Avatar nashou66 09:00 AM 01-19-2012
Kal we are not taking it seriously, we are having fun. thats the best part is ripping each other over the shots that obviously will look different on different monitors etc than they do in person.

Especially when Kevin chimes in!!!

Nashou
kal's Avatar kal 09:14 AM 01-19-2012
Well then let the fun continue!

Kal
Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 09:30 AM 01-19-2012
Anoher comparison same exposure as well half a second f2.8.
Soon to be Calibrated.

JVC (1) RS65


CRT G90s (2) Stacked Calibrated (green tinge camera issue most likely)



Kal
So you telling me Cliffs camera is `out of focus` and comparisons are useless?
kal's Avatar kal 10:48 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Kal
So you telling me Cliffs camera is `out of focus` and comparisons are useless?

No, I'm saying that comparisons [overall] are useless. See my above post.

The images shown here are also about 1/4 the resolution of the original 1080p frame too so the idea of using them as a test of sharpness is made even more meaningless.

They're not the same frame either nor were they taken on the same Blu-ray player.

Sharpness differences can only be done using extreme closeups where each pixel on screen is covered by multiple pixels in the camera, and that's in a controlled environment usign the same equipement for both tests where the only difference is the thing being tested: The projector.

I'm not picking sides here. I don't love a specific technology. Yes, I own CRT now but I'm currently shopping to replace it with an LCOS digital projector (likely JVC).

I'm trying to get people to stop comparing projectors using screenshots like these two you posted as the way people are doing it with different cameras in different setups is absolutely useless. This thread's for fun but obviously not everyone takes it that way.

You don't get people in the audio forum taking audio recordings of their speakers player and then posting them for comparison with others as that's obviously futile and pointless, but when it comes to screenshots people don't seem understand that they're basically doing the same thing.

Kal
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 01:47 PM 01-19-2012
here ya go Kev. I used something that should be in your Blue Ray stash. Can we do the comparison thing?






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Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 02:52 AM 01-20-2012
Just look above and relish in the glory of DIGITAL - JVC resolution (even taken at a lower res pic 1024 vs 1280) still destroys the G90s STACK.
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 06:38 AM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Just look above and relish in the glory of DIGITAL - JVC resolution (even taken at a lower res pic 1024 vs 1280) still destroys the G90s STACK.

Hey, why you keeping talking about the G90's... don't u have some luv for me..

OK, so the shots you compared with the stack, I don't have. So what shots would you like for me to post this weekend for you to compare with?


Anyway, I got the parts in yesterday, so the neck boards are now complete.

There are 49 different component changes made to each of them. The finished one (green) shown below barely shows any changes, but trust me, they are there..




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mp20748's Avatar mp20748 08:24 AM 01-20-2012
All now reassembled -

A few more quickies seeing how well it does with a not so good transfer.




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Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 05:50 AM 01-21-2012
NEWSFLASH--Unexplained power shortage reported near Cliffs location....
He must be powering up the TRIPLE STACK with his high end VPs trying to understand
how a DIGITAL JVC can bitchslap a STACK.......check above.

HEHEHEHE
lewis's Avatar lewis 09:15 AM 01-21-2012
And how does the JVC handle motion? Still shots are one thing but how many of us watch movies frame per frame.......
overclkr's Avatar overclkr 09:22 AM 01-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

NEWSFLASH--Unexplained power shortage reported near Cliffs location....
He must be powering up the TRIPLE STACK with his high end VPs trying to understand
how a DIGITAL JVC can bitchslap a STACK.......check above.

HEHEHEHE

LOL!!!! Keep reaching Kevin!!! Bring that POS over to my place and we'll have a REAL CONTEST!
nashou66's Avatar nashou66 12:24 PM 01-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis View Post

And how does the JVC handle motion? Still shots are one thing but how many of us watch movies frame per frame.......

Exactly! Digital motion resolution is getting Better but from what i heard only
thE new VDC Marquee HD SSl 6000 series has CRT like motion resolution.



Athanasios
Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 12:48 PM 01-21-2012
Looks like this Screenshot War!!! has been Won by a DIGITAL with the
above JVC entry. I would also GIVE UP and diss the JVC if i owned a CRT seeing that resolution and quality of image.
lewis's Avatar lewis 03:32 PM 01-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Looks like this Screenshot War!!! has been Won by a DIGITAL with the
above JVC entry. I would also GIVE UP and diss the JVC if i owned a CRT seeing that resolution and quality of image.

Delusional too. Well so long as you're happy, that's all that matters, right?
MV_Cinema's Avatar MV_Cinema 02:43 AM 01-22-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

Exactly! Digital motion resolution is getting Better but from what i heard only
thE new VDC Marquee HD SSl 6000 series has CRT like motion resolution.



Athanasios

What is this machine? Does it has blacks like the JVC?
Can the picture actually compare to Cine 9 or Marque 9500LC Ultra?
lewis's Avatar lewis 07:55 AM 01-22-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

What is this machine? Does it has blacks like the JVC?
Can the picture actually compare to Cine 9 or Marque 9500LC Ultra?

3chip DLP with LED light source so at least it won't suffer from rainbows. Not very bright which means maximum practical screen size will be restrictive.
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 04:16 PM 01-22-2012
Yo Kev. I took a few oldies but goodies for you tonight, in hopes you posting comparison shots of the same scenes. Seems like I can't get your attention these days. I've even held off on finishing up on the setup sincce your JVC seems to also need some attention..

I'm still shooting on a 8' wide screen.




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EJ's Avatar EJ 07:37 PM 01-22-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis View Post

3chip DLP with LED light source so at least it won't suffer from rainbows. Not very bright which means maximum practical screen size will be restrictive.

In '99, I worked for a projector rental house. We'd rent everything from small boardroom projectors to electrohome roadies with interchangeable 30 lb lenses. Many rentals were 3 chip DLP. I remember thinking the prices of this tech was going to fall quickly, as rainbows bothered me then, like they do now, but overall, it remains a premium.
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 03:21 AM 01-23-2012
Hey Kev, where are you?
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 03:28 AM 01-23-2012
Are you still out there Kev?
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 03:28 AM 01-23-2012
can you come out and play, and bring that JVC with you..
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 03:32 AM 01-23-2012
OK, I take back all that I've ever said about your JVC, wit the exception of spanking it's little plastic butt..
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 03:34 AM 01-23-2012
This morning my Marquee woke me up and told me to post a few shots for you before I left out for the day.




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Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 03:36 AM 01-23-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

can you come out and play, and bring that JVC with you..

As soon as i see something with no film grain or crushed blacks

Dark Knight or Sin City.
mp20748's Avatar mp20748 03:50 AM 01-23-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

As soon as i see something with no film grain or crushed blacks

Dark Knight or Sin City.

So you want me to also get into the trick camera thing huh!

Dark Knight and Sin City... let's see I'm supposed to take an $100.00 point and shoot camera and capture the absolute BLACK and low range from my projected image on a screen. Somehow without the help of a video production crew and very expensive cameras and experience, you seem to think it's possible to capture the most difficult part of video, which happens to be low end performance. And the film grain, well, that's what the camera saw, and since I'm only pointing and shooting - it is what it is..

Now, can you do the same and post a side by side comparison, hopefully showing something more sensible, like the faces and other clear objects in the image.

Oh, and do I need to even bother trying to get into the difference my CRT would do in low end performance compared to your DIGITAL??

Or are you saying you have the first digital that will blow away the low end performance of a seriously top end CRT projector??

Straight from the camera projected onto an 8' wide screen... oh and check out how natural those faces are in those shots...
Kevin 3000's Avatar Kevin 3000 07:20 AM 01-23-2012
The answers you seek are here.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/B...est_Finala.htm

From the Cine4Home review....

"Our results show that JVC has promised not too much: not only the maximum light output has improved compared to the previous generation, but also much more light is left over after calibration. Because the native contrast values were further increased, offer the X 70 / X 90 despite the increased light output the same excellent black level. This is especially paid when at the same time are black and very light elements (e.g. white stars) of the image. So a unique depth is achieved by high native contrast, which is not possible with Adaptive aperture systems. In such scenes of image the JVC D-ILA projectors are still unbeaten, no competitive technology approaches currently at this level!"

"-An absolute unique feature is the Adobe RGB compatibility by means of special Greenfilters. Thus, the X are 70 / 90 to the very few models that can be taken "seriously" by professional photographers.

-The additional available color management makes it possible to calibrate on other standards, e.g. on xvYCC, as it will hopefully be supported by future Blu-rays.

-Camcorder support already now xvYCC, these are the X 7 / X 9 if necessary, the X 3 does not.

-The specially programmed cinema color profiles allow the use of larger color spaces without having to go up deficits in skin tones (Special CMS with paged orange) and thus provide more brilliance for both real and animated films."
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