Screenshot War!!!!!!!! - Page 189 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!



Forum Jump: 
 38Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #5641 of 5666 Old 12-29-2015, 03:18 PM
Newbie
 
maf12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
You guys seriously - what is there left that CRT can do better than high end digitals - such as the 4K Sony's - except for motion resolution? What can a highly tuned 9" CRT do better than my Sony VPL-VW1100ES? Or a 2016 JVC?
I am using two highly tuned 9" CRTs (Madrigal MP-9) in a blend configuration on a 12 foot wide 2:40:1 screen. I have been very satisfied with this CRT setup. I have also owned high end JVC digitals. To me digital or CRT is a matter of preference and satisfaction to the user of the technology. Choose what suits you best in your home theater setup.
Dj Dee likes this.
maf12 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5642 of 5666 Old 12-30-2015, 04:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mp20748's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,696
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 26















It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.
mp20748 is offline  
post #5643 of 5666 Old 01-03-2016, 10:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisreeves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,412
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 407 Post(s)
Liked: 276
What are you guys trying to show with these screenshots? Sorry - you just seem to be an odd little sub-culture here at AVS these days so I'm wondering what you CRT guys are up to.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
chrisreeves is offline  
post #5644 of 5666 Old 01-05-2016, 11:42 PM
Member
 
ElTopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
What are you guys trying to show with these screenshots? Sorry - you just seem to be an odd little sub-culture here at AVS these days so I'm wondering what you CRT guys are up to.
May it be possible that you never had any CRT ?

If so you will never know what a CRT picture looks like in comparison to the present digitals.

It's 2016 and CRT is still here !
ImaStar likes this.
ElTopo is offline  
post #5645 of 5666 Old 01-06-2016, 06:09 AM
kal
AVS Special Member
 
kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,186
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTopo View Post
If so you will never know what a CRT picture looks like in comparison to the present digitals.
... so we take pictures with our cameras that have extremely limited stops (dynamic range) as compared to any projector (digital or CRT) and then show it to you in lower resolution on your screen that isn't colour calibrated.

All this lets you see something that doesn't look at all like it really does in person.



(Sorry, couldn't resist).

Kal
kal is offline  
post #5646 of 5666 Old 01-06-2016, 09:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mr Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area/San Lorenzo, CA., USA
Posts: 9,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Except for the crispness and dynamic punch, Kal. We can see definite differences between schlocky and sizzling, on our monitors.

Did you get a chance to see the dynamic punch of ovrclkr's triple G90 stack? It was definitely a step up from any normal pic we see on this thread. Credit for this highly challenging calibration of 3 projectors/9 guns all aimed at the same screen - and coming off crisper than crisp, incredibly so - goes to intrepid calibrator Ken Whitcomb.

I am sure you could not resist Kal, because everything you said was true! Yer right. But give the devil his due, there are still SOME things we can actually savor in using our computer monitors -



b

Robert Jones
Image Perfection
510-278-4247
650-333-4808 cell
bob at imageperfection dot com
www.projectiontvtroubleshootingadvice.com
YouTube channel: mrbobbigscreen


Last edited by Mr Bob; 01-06-2016 at 09:52 PM.
Mr Bob is offline  
post #5647 of 5666 Old 01-06-2016, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mr Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area/San Lorenzo, CA., USA
Posts: 9,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 98
I will be in Everett WA on Saturday the 16th, coming up in about 10 days, restoring the picture on my very first HDTV, the year 2000 CRT triple-scanrate - last of its kind - 65" Panasonic now owned by Dave L in Everett. He moved it about 8', then moved it back, and somehow something went amiss and his convergence got messed up on all 3 scanrates. When I had dialed it in after the 11 hour truck drive up from East Bay here last year when he drove down here and bought it from me, its picture had been restored to stealth grade, age had not diminished it a whit. Absolutely stunning picture. He is also having me do his Kuro.

I would love to meet with other display owners there and in the Seattle area, esp. CRT owners of both projection and direct view. Please contact me if you'd like to get together. Esp. if I have done work on your Pioneer Elite's - or non-Elite's - PS board from far away and you are still enjoying your set to the max, years later. Or if you had me replace your convergence ICs along the way. Or if we ever did optics cleaning together over the phone.

Mr Bob

Robert Jones
Image Perfection
510-278-4247
650-333-4808 cell
bob at imageperfection dot com
www.projectiontvtroubleshootingadvice.com
YouTube channel: mrbobbigscreen

Mr Bob is offline  
post #5648 of 5666 Old 01-07-2016, 12:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisreeves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,412
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 407 Post(s)
Liked: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTopo View Post
May it be possible that you never had any CRT ?

If so you will never know what a CRT picture looks like in comparison to the present digitals.

It's 2016 and CRT is still here !
I've never had a 9" - which is why I am curious. Years ago I had a Sony 1271 but that's obviously not in the same league as a 9"

The reason I ask is because for many years it was universally acknowledged that 9" CRT's were king of the image quality hill - despite digital slowly catching up.

But I thought it was the case that the last 3 years CRT's had finally been equaled in black level due to the development of JVC's LCOS panels and Sony's SXRD combined with high quality dynamic irises. And I thought CRT had been equaled or beaten in all other metrics (shadow detail, color accuracy, resolution) except motion resolution.

To be clear I'm not talking about mid-line digitals - just the latest/greatest JVC's and the 4K Sony's. I'll leave out 3-chip high end DLP from Sim2 and others because the black levels still leave a lot to be desired.

Is this not the case?

I was considering a G90 or G90 stack last year since I can finally afford them - but was advised against it by former owners who said even the G90 was finally dethroned by Sony's own 4K all-glass lens monster, the 1000ES/1100ES.

I would love to see a high end, finely tuned 9" CRT in action in person - and if anybody's in Southern California I'd bring my 1100ES along to do a shoot out if you like.
ImaStar and Dj Dee like this.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
chrisreeves is offline  
post #5649 of 5666 Old 01-07-2016, 08:43 AM
Member
 
redfox001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 12
You know these exponential functions where things increase a lot at start and a little at the end. With 9 inch top CRT and top digital the differences are simple much smaller there is no room for massive improvement. It becomes personal what you prefer the most.
Dj Dee likes this.
redfox001 is offline  
post #5650 of 5666 Old 01-07-2016, 11:07 AM
Member
 
redfox001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 12
One of the things that caught my surprise after watching dark scenes with my modified Marquee with MP mods is that the blacklevel is so very natural following a natural gamma curve. I used to have posterization on all my digitals when I calibrated to get the best shadow detail. Now I have very much shadow detail I do not need more and no singel banding or posterization. Those things make me love CRT still. When searching the internet I read that there are some posterization problems with the VW1000 and I think yes of cause that is why they need 10 bit. We do not really need it with CRT. Also the HDR movement. With CRT we have white peaking. In a dark scene that drop of sweat on the mans face is very light and because I do not get the full white brightness the iris in my eyes stay open and I see a lot of punch. With my digitals there was more light but I was missing this white peaking and now I read that HDR is coming and I think we do not need it with CRT. And than more the 4k 8k or whatever. There was a huge difference between dvd and 1080p. There is only a very small difference between 4k and 1080p. On digitals it reduces the screendoor but again we do not have that on CRT

White peaking: powersupply puts out more power on smaller white area, peaklumens.

Last edited by redfox001; 01-08-2016 at 03:49 PM.
redfox001 is offline  
post #5651 of 5666 Old 01-08-2016, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mp20748's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,696
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 26
I just finished another version of the mods. This final set is slightly different. There is NO peaking on the 02 VIM. None.

The video chain is totally direct coupled from the DAC to the CRT's, which allows only one pedestal (black reference) and that also comes from the DAC on the Moome card. It has near perfect linearity, and exceptional low end performance. I will be playing with it most likely through this month and maybe the next, and watching a many movies..

Now, there are some very noticeable problems that can easily be seen in the shots. My Control Module is defective... it may not show in the shots, but after warm-up the image takes on waving lines that terrible distorts the image. It also has a problem on the Moome card that causes too much green in the image, so with that, of course it's not calibrated. I just felt like posting a few shots..









It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.
mp20748 is offline  
post #5652 of 5666 Old 02-28-2016, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mr Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area/San Lorenzo, CA., USA
Posts: 9,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox001 View Post
One of the things that caught my surprise after watching dark scenes with my modified Marquee with MP mods is that the blacklevel is so very natural following a natural gamma curve. I used to have posterization on all my digitals when I calibrated to get the best shadow detail. Now I have very much shadow detail I do not need more and no singel banding or posterization. Those things make me love CRT still. When searching the internet I read that there are some posterization problems with the VW1000 and I think yes of cause that is why they need 10 bit. We do not really need it with CRT. Also the HDR movement. With CRT we have white peaking. In a dark scene that drop of sweat on the mans face is very light and because I do not get the full white brightness the iris in my eyes stay open and I see a lot of punch. With my digitals there was more light but I was missing this white peaking and now I read that HDR is coming and I think we do not need it with CRT. And than more the 4k 8k or whatever. There was a huge difference between dvd and 1080p. There is only a very small difference between 4k and 1080p. On digitals it reduces the screendoor but again we do not have that on CRT

White peaking: powersupply puts out more power on smaller white area, peaklumens.
On digital isn't there still an issue with solarization? Or is that the same as posterization?

Thresholding.

By that I mean seeing steps and levels in graduated brightness, like when something bright is fading to black all around it and you see the platforms as it steps down over and over again, going out from center, in its brightness. Which you don't seen in CRT unless it's there already in the program material.

On CRT there are no steps or platforming in the gradual gradations, it just reduces the brightness naturally as it goes out from center, like it does in real life.

Robert Jones
Image Perfection
510-278-4247
650-333-4808 cell
bob at imageperfection dot com
www.projectiontvtroubleshootingadvice.com
YouTube channel: mrbobbigscreen


Last edited by Mr Bob; 02-28-2016 at 11:04 PM.
Mr Bob is offline  
post #5653 of 5666 Old 03-03-2016, 02:04 AM
Member
 
redfox001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
On digital isn't there still an issue with solarization? Or is that the same as posterization?

Thresholding.

By that I mean seeing steps and levels in graduated brightness, like when something bright is fading to black all around it and you see the platforms as it steps down over and over again, going out from center, in its brightness. Which you don't seen in CRT unless it's there already in the program material.

On CRT there are no steps or platforming in the gradual gradations, it just reduces the brightness naturally as it goes out from center, like it does in real life.
Yes that is true. I think is is caused by the iris and the gamma push that they need because they can not naturally resolve the black levels.

Digital has another problem and that is motion blur. Things get unsharp when they are moving. You need 1000Hz frames with black insertion to get the same motion resolution as CRT has.
redfox001 is offline  
post #5654 of 5666 Old 03-03-2016, 04:56 AM
Member
 
redfox001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Of cause CRT has a somewhat softer look compared to digital because even after 100% resolving the bandwidth the beam still adds a Gaussian blur. With digital this blur is absent but there is also a mistake because with CRT the video dac makes a sinus from the 1 on 1 off pixel testpattern and it should but the digital makes it into a rectangle, pixels that should in fact be invisible. So perhaps the digital is more off to the sharp side while the CRT is more of to the soft side. With 4k upsampling the digital seem to solve this problem. The CRT can solve their problem by using ultra sharp phosphor lug tubes and focussing techniques. That is why I think the Barco 909 should have 100% bandwidth to solve both problems.
redfox001 is offline  
post #5655 of 5666 Old 03-04-2016, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dude111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 264 Post(s)
Liked: 422
How good is a screenshot thread like this WHEN WE ARE VIEWING DIGITALLY??

Doesnt make any sense... We wont be able to truly see analogue screen shots! (Not the way they really look anyway)
Dude111 is offline  
post #5656 of 5666 Old 03-06-2016, 06:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mr Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area/San Lorenzo, CA., USA
Posts: 9,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 98
True, but HD content is all digital too, yet we see big differences between digital and analog displays of that HD.

If you go thru this thread a few years back, you'll see many examples of analog vs. digital. Keith 2000 I think it was, liked his digital JVC's picture so much he was willing to duke it out with us here on this thread a few years ago, and many of the same frame shot were sent in for comparison purposes.

Just like in audio, a DAC works both ways. Difference is that with HD, the digital HD info has to get back to being analog before we CRT users can see it. Just like in audio.

If this were all pointless because it's on our monitors as digital, you would not see the stark differences you see in the digital/analog shootouts on this thread.

Robert Jones
Image Perfection
510-278-4247
650-333-4808 cell
bob at imageperfection dot com
www.projectiontvtroubleshootingadvice.com
YouTube channel: mrbobbigscreen

Mr Bob is offline  
post #5657 of 5666 Old 03-18-2016, 03:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mp20748's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,696
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 26


















It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.
mp20748 is offline  
post #5658 of 5666 Old 05-08-2016, 02:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dj Dee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox001 View Post
Yes that is true. I think is is caused by the iris and the gamma push that they need because they can not naturally resolve the black levels.

Digital has another problem and that is motion blur. Things get unsharp when they are moving. You need 1000Hz frames with black insertion to get the same motion resolution as CRT has.

Originally a pro digital today uses in 24 frames pr sec 72Hz and 96Hz and with motion engaged 120Hz in LOW setting that is the only one you can use. Every other setting you get the soap opera effect.. Sony 4K projectors uses 96 and new jvc uses 96 also. And then the new RS500/x7000 and RS600/x9000 also use 96. And yes you get some motion blur in very fast scenes if using CMD/motion enhancer. But almost not visible if you just live with it. This is what you prefer.


This is said on other forum very true and well said.


Tim in Phoenix






Link Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:11 am Post subject:
Guys
This entire thread is getting tiresome, and proves nothing. MP Mods are useful up to a point, so give it a long rest eh?

Last edited by Dj Dee; 05-16-2016 at 11:11 AM.
Dj Dee is offline  
post #5659 of 5666 Old 05-11-2016, 04:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mp20748's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,696
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 26





Dj Dee likes this.

It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.
mp20748 is offline  
post #5660 of 5666 Old 05-14-2016, 06:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mp20748's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,696
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 26


Craig Peer likes this.

It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.
mp20748 is offline  
post #5661 of 5666 Old 05-14-2016, 11:08 PM
Member
 
ElTopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Flesh tones look incredible.

4K Ultra HD
ElTopo is offline  
post #5662 of 5666 Old 05-19-2016, 04:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mp20748's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,696
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 26





It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

High Performance Marquee Video chain modifications.
mp20748 is offline  
post #5663 of 5666 Old 05-26-2016, 07:26 AM
Member
 
racerxnet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thought I would post a couple shots from my 8500. Men in Black 3. Hand held camera.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0989.JPG
Views:	89
Size:	434.7 KB
ID:	1460850   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0991.JPG
Views:	93
Size:	436.8 KB
ID:	1460858  
racerxnet is offline  
post #5664 of 5666 Old 07-05-2016, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
alebonau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Land of Contentment :)
Posts: 3,224
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 847 Post(s)
Liked: 452
nice movie star trek into the darkness, a few screen shots of jvc x7000, uhd blu-ray vs blu-ray see if you can pick

1A.
Spoiler!


 
1B.
Spoiler!

 

 
2A.
Spoiler!

 

 
2B.
Spoiler!


 
3A.
Spoiler!


 
3B.
Spoiler!


 
 
4A.  
Spoiler!


 
4B.
Spoiler!


 
5A.  
Spoiler!


 
5B.
Spoiler!

Craig Peer and Dj Dee like this.

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


Welcome to my lounge room :)

Last edited by alebonau; 07-05-2016 at 02:45 PM.
alebonau is offline  
post #5665 of 5666 Old 07-16-2016, 10:07 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Couple of shots from the old Barco just before I upgraded it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2070 (1024x683).jpg
Views:	27
Size:	327.5 KB
ID:	1550193   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2068 (1024x683).jpg
Views:	25
Size:	264.7 KB
ID:	1550201  
Gregstv is offline  
post #5666 of 5666 Old Today, 01:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cmjohnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sharply focused on sharper focus.
Posts: 6,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Yes, I have seen solarization with a CRT projector. When viewing a digital signal, of course. DVDs definitely can show solarization, but the increased color depth of blu-ray/HD makes it much less likely that you'll see solarization.

But even with HD sources, in some cases you can still see a little of it. It's much easier to see directly on the CRT face than in the projected image. I've seen for myself that solarization is most apparent in the blue CRT. And least so in the green.

I don't know but I suspect that it could be due to the video mastering engineer choosing to devote more bandwidth to the green channel, and less to the blue channel, as the eye is less sensitive to a loss of resolution or change in brightness in the blue range, while it's most sensitive in the green range.
cmjohnson is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply CRT Projectors



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off