New theater - looking at an 8500 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm in the process of creating a new-construction theater in my basement. The room will be about 13x12 with a 92" screen. The main use of the room will be movies, but I'd also like to watch sports, a few HD TV shows, play video games (PS2 now, 360 eventually), and connect my computer for PC gaming.

I'm a big fan of CRT technology and wouldn't trade my 5 year old 57" Sony RPTV for any TV on the market today. As such, I'm looking at a CRT projector. Doing manual convergence is no problem and I don't mind doing some tweaking. My big question is how feasible it would be to buy a Marquee 8500 from Curt P to put into my theater. I'd like to keep the projector investment to around $3000 if possible. I do have some worries about parts availability or the ability to service the 8500 if that becomes necessary.

I have also been reading about the Panasonic AE-2000 LCD projector - but haven't been able to see one yet. I understand the differences in contrast and black levels between CRT and digital projectors, but a small current model projector has some convenience attached to it.

Do I need to worry about the reduced convenience of a CRT like the 8500?
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post #2 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 07:42 AM
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You should really go check out a local crt projector if possible. Crt setup is pretty rough and has a steep learning curve. I still don't know how to setup my XG and I've had two for almost two years now. At least not able to setup the pj to its fullest, but I can get still a great pic. You shouldn't worry about anything if your purchasing a 8500 from Curt, he will take care of you and as far as parts there are tons of them so it would be easy to find something if it broke. However, that digital is resonablly nice and very convenient like you said. It just depends on how anal you are about picture quality. Even though I support Curt and highly recommend buying from him, if you do happen to think about not buying from him at around 2000 on the used market or even much less you can pick up an 8'' LC machine which would be a step up. However when you purhcase from an individual instead of someone like Curt you are on your own if something does fail or the item isn't like described. Once setup, you really only have to tweek the convergence maybe twice a month if you really want. Some people play with theres more than others, I typically touch up convergence every other week. Its pretty simple and I actually like doing it ,so if you enjoy tweaking, having a crt wouldn't be a problem to maintain once intial setup is complete.

You may want to check here for a local crt viewing:
http://www.curtpalme.com/ReferralList_UnitedStates.shtm
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post #3 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

You should really go check out a local crt projector if possible.

good advice, I know someone close to green bay with an 8500 and he might be wiliing to show it off.

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I still don't know how to setup my XG and I've had two for almost two years now. Crt setup is pretty rough and has a steep learning curve.

WRONG, he's asking about a marquee 8500, the most user friendly CRT PJ ever made. Your NEC is the exactly the opposite, tied with sony G70 as the complicated CRT electronic cluster-fu**

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post #4 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianD73 View Post

I do have some worries about parts availability or the ability to service the 8500 if that becomes necessary.Do I need to worry about the reduced convenience of a CRT like the 8500?

the marquee is still in production, and there's more parts available for these machines than any other projection device ever made.
http://vdcds.com/crtprojectors.html
The only incovenience is hanging it from the ceiling. Once that's done and set-up is complete you can simply kick-back and enjoy it for the next 10 years. I do a convergence touch up on mine 2 or 3 times a year.

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post #5 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

. Once setup, you really only have to tweek the convergence maybe twice a month if you really want. Some people play with theres more than others, I typically touch up convergence every other week. Its pretty simple and I actually like doing it ,so if you enjoy tweaking, having a crt wouldn't be a problem to maintain once intial setup is complete.

Its blasphemy on this forum - but I just hit the ACON full setup on the inputs I use occasionally. (automatic convergence - most would say you can do a better job yourself but I like hitting the option and walking away for 5 minutes or so). I am obviuosly not into tweaking for absolute best.
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post #6 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I do have a friend near me who has an 8500 from Curt, so he has given me a few demos. I'm hoping to get my hands on a Panasonic so we can do a side by side comparison. I was unaware that the projectors were still in production. That is a fairly strong selling point. Can the 8500 handle 1080p well enough or do people stay at 1080i? Will I have any trouble with an OTA antenna for HD, DVD, and a PC connected? Can I assume that I will need the DVD player or the receiver to handle up-conversion?
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post #7 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 02:12 PM
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I have the marquee 8500,

Be sure to connect it to a HTPC and bring the gamma up to 90 (depending on the utility you use) you will notice 50% more shadow detail; this is something that a digital cant do without looking way too bright and loosing black err grayness..:d

Dont get too hooked on resolution; the differences arent huge, I am able to do 1080p on mine due to my great sharpness but thats due to the fact that Im using a 100inch screen instead of those drive-in screens some people use

If you can find a better price from an individual that can offer the same kind of guarantee than curt than you should buy from that guy, I got mine from a legit seller here in Sweden and all I had to pay was 150bucks+ a bunch of electronics I didnt need (such as a modded original xbox and a <500 digital) it had a 9, 7, 9 rating. some people are more interested in getting people interested in crts than actually selling them for thousands when theyve gotten it from some company for free...

The crt community is dying so I think getting a better price than 2500usd shouldnt be too hard, though if youre more into convenience and service then you should purchase from someone like curt, he seems like a great guy but money is money...
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post #8 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 02:31 PM
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If you're a strong DIYer you can find bargains. Sometimes you'll get lucky, sometimes you won't. If you enjoy that kind of thing, great. But if you're NOT a strong DIYer, buying from Curt makes a lot of sense. He provides a guaranteed-working projector, tuned up well, and great after-the-sale support.

8500's can do 1080p, but without considerable after-market mods they won't do it very well. The image will probably be softer than if you ran 1080i or 720p. The circuitry will have to work a lot harder than it would at 1080i/720p, which may affect convergence stability or circuit reliability.

I wouldn't recommend HTPC to anybody unless you're a hardcore PC hacker. Get yourself a good HD / BluRay DVD player, which will play SD and HD DVDs at your desired resolution. An HD cable / satellite box will provide your TV at your desired resolution. HTPCs are a *lot* of hassle. I know plenty of people who have ditched their HTPC because it just wasn't worth the headache. Draganm just got an HD-A2 and is gleefully looking forward to trashing his HTPC.
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post #9 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axellagerlf View Post

some people are more interested in getting people interested in crts than actually selling them for thousands when theyve gotten it from some company for free..The crt community is dying so I think getting a better price than 2500usd shouldnt be too hard, though if youre more into convenience and service then you should purchase from someone like curt, he seems like a great guy but money is money...

so 7 weesks ago you came here asking questions and didn't know a dam thing about CRT. Now your an expert and know that it's "dying" and that curt charges too much. Way to go champ

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post #10 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

8500's can do 1080p, but without considerable after-market mods they won't do it very well. The image will probably be softer than if you ran 1080i or 720p. The circuitry will have to work a lot harder than it would at 1080i/720p, which may affect convergence stability or circuit reliability.

This is not correct, I had my 8500 running at 1080P and it looked much better than at 1080i or 720P. It did take a lot of effort to get it to look good at 1080P but it was well worth it.

Also the only difference between and 8500 and a 9500 are the tubes and lenses. Running an 8500 at 1080P is no harder on the electronics than running a 9500 at 1080P as they both have the same electronics.

See http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3976 for some pics of my 8500 running at 1080P.

Chris.
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post #11 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 04:53 PM
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Also the only difference between and 8500 and a 9500 are the tubes and lenses. Running an 8500 at 1080P is no harder on the electronics than running a 9500 at 1080P as they both have the same electronics.Chris.

I'll vouch for that Even at 1080P, the 8500 is well below it's rated bandwidth, but like Chris pointed out whether or not it looks better at 1080P will depend on who's hands are under the hood.

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post #12 of 85 Old 11-19-2007, 09:26 PM
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Hm, well, I don't think you can disagree that the circuitry is working harder (processing higher-freq signals) at 1080p than at 1080i, but maybe the 8500 has enough bandwidth to handle it with aplomb. The general wisdom is that 8" tubes don't have enough resolution to truly resolve 1080p, but MP and others have demonstrated it's possible if the signal is clean enough.

Maybe I'll try 1080p with my HD-A2 when I get the 8500 on the ceiling again.
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post #13 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
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so 7 weesks ago you came here asking questions and didn't know a dam thing about CRT. Now your an expert and know that it's "dying" and that curt charges too much. Way to go champ

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so 7 weesks ago you came here asking questions and didn't know a dam thing about CRT. Now your an expert and know that it's "dying" and that curt charges too much. Way to go champ

tsss now I know plenty

Anyhow all I know is that if someone charges 2500usd for a marquee 8500 when i got it for less than 500 is...well whatever

and you dont have to be a crt expert to know that this is a dying community, prices have dropped thousands and there are no new models ahead, I recognise almost every avatar on this forum and Ive only been here for a couple of weeks, the legit crt dealer who got me my projector was smart enough to give it cheap; he had probably gotten them dirt cheap (curts probably gotten some just as cheap) and he knew that I might purchase more stuff from him in the future.. and he knew that I had friends who might express their interest; which some have when theyve seen the image Im getting, the only problem for people seems to be the size...
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post #14 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axellagerlf View Post

Anyhow all I know is that if someone charges 2500usd for a marquee 8500 when i got it for less than 500 is...well whatever

There might be cheap projectors and those that has serviced and inspected.....
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post #15 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 07:25 AM
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prices have dropped thousands and there are no new models ahead

not true, the Marquee line is still being made today, as are some barcos and i think Ampro models by VDC but for special big contract customers .

Athanasios
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post #16 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 07:47 AM
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Brian,

Here is our local HT group with a few CRT projectors.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=448619
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post #17 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 08:12 AM
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axellagrlf: who did you buy it from? the prices i have seen in sweden is tvice as much as for example curt.

cant be a fine pj for 500 bucks. not in this country. and, yes i have had a couple of crt:s now

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post #18 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

Maybe I'll try 1080p with my HD-A2 when I get the 8500 on the ceiling again.

sorry Gary but you won't be trying 1080P with the HD-A2. You'll need an HD-A20, A-30, or A-35. Everything runs hotter at 1080P than it does with 1080i but the Marquee will be fine with it.
Speaking of which I know you saw some macro-blocking on my screen Saturday due to my HTPC/Radeon 9600 not being able to handle VRM-9. Sunday night I switched back to Overlay and I was surprised at how soft the pic was. So back into the menu I went and lo and behold there was a VRM -7 option which seemed to be the best choice. I haven't hooked up the HD-A2 yet but we need to do some A-B with my HTPC @960P and HD-DVD @1080i. I hope to find some time to do some comparisons.

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post #19 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 09:35 AM
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Buying from a reseller is always more expensive due to the over head cost and I bet Curt gives you a unit that is more trusty than one that might cause you to pull your hair.

CRT needs to be set up. Convergence and geometry are the ones to learn. It is not difficult but takes a little time depending on the person.
Grayscale is same as digital. Digital has CMS that needs to be done which CRT dosen't have and that is a big one since you will need a color analyzer. Focus is more comprehensive than digital but it is not that technical. It is all visual and execution.

At the end you will get a picture that is very nice and as you learm more the PQ gets better. You will have no issues such as lamp failure, dust blob or colorwheel wine at least and CRT's should last a long time.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #20 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axellagerlf View Post

tsss now I know plenty
Anyhow all I know is that if someone charges 2500usd for a marquee 8500 when i got it for less than 500 is...well whatever

so you paid $500. and got a fully checked out and re-tubed 8500 with all the technical service bulletins perfromed and in perfect working condition? WRONG. you got an As-is machine that the seller was kind enough to replace with a second machine a few days later. The second machine also has not been serviced and might have a slew of other problems under the hood, most notably the P14 over-voltage problem ticking away like a bomb. You still got a good deal for $500. but don't compare it to a fully serviced and re-tubed machine from curt.
AFA CRT dying, I have been reading that Shite from newby's like you for 5 years now. Why is it that everyone comes here knowing nothing about CRT and then 3 months later decides it's ok to call the hobby dead? If it's dying why are you here? Maybe you should just go and get a cheal LCD. Then you and MTyson should get together and talk about how awesome it si to have 720 Pixels on the screen all at the same time.

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post #21 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm View Post

AFA CRT dying, I have been reading that Shite from newby's like you for 5 years now. Why is it that everyone comes here knowing nothing about CRT and then 3 months later decides it's ok to call the hobby dead? If it's dying why are you here? Maybe you should just go and get a cheal LCD. Then you and MTyson should get together and talk about how awesome it si to have 720 Pixels on the screen all at the same time.

When one reseller is responsible for roughly 25% of the listings on ebay, and virtually none of those listings gets a bid because they are ridiculously high priced compared to the other, similar listings, that is a clear indication that crt is dead.
You are a reseller. You have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion that crt projectors are "worth" as much as the most prolific reseller attempts to make them worth. They're not.
You, and a small(and getting smaller) group of resellers are constantly lobbying on this forum to keep the illusion that crt prices are maintaining their strength when they are not in fact doing that.
All of you resellers started as newbies here too, even Curt. All of you started by buying machines for NEXT TO NOTHING and reselling them to the un-initiated for exorbitant markups.
Curt used to drive down to Cape Canaveral to pick up his Barco 600's from NASA auctions when he paid $200. each for them, nowadays he's buying better machines, but hardly ever for more than that same $200./set amount.
I believe there was another reseller who bought their first half dozen or so machines from a junk dealer in Colorado who was unwilling to ship anywhere, but who had a semi trailer full of Marquees to sell.
Another reseller in California bought a dozen or so machines from a simulation builder in CA who blew out their retired stock for mere hundreds per machine until he spitefully informed them of their "market" value to queer deals for others.
An esteemed member from the south didn't know anything about crt projectors when he first stumbled upon this forum, but recognized a money maker in buying used for nothing and reselling for as much as the market would bear. Now he's an expert...
I'm leaving out lots of minor, hobby resellers who've come in, made a HUGE windfall buying and selling, and got out when they recognized the steep decline taking place.
The only people paying ANYTHING for crt projectors nowadays, are star struck fanboys, or those with money unwilling to simply look for the same cheap sources that all those resellers are using....
And, cheap LCD/DLP's, REGARLESS OF THEIR QUALITY, are the main reason for the decline in crt projector prices. The newbie has to be pretty hard core to pay THOUSANDS for a USED crt projector, when they can saunter down to Best Buy and pick up a perfectly functional BRAND NEW AND WARRANTIED DLP projector for $500. any day of the week...
The Infocus X1 wasn't a great looking projector, by anyone's estimation, BUT, it served to break the big price taboo that had kept ALL projectors prices inflated.
But you guys selling crt projectors just keep on telling everyone the market is still there.
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post #22 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 12:08 PM
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Curt used to drive down to Cape Canaveral to pick up his Barco 600's from NASA auctions when he paid $200. each for them,

Oh really. Curt drove over SIX THOUSAND MILES (round-trip) to buy $200 projectors?

If you think buying projectors for "NEXT TO NOTHING" and selling for a "HUGE windfall" is easy, you've never tried it. I've bought & sold a few projectors as I got tired of one and wanted to try another, and I can tell you it's work. And I didn't do anywhere near the fix-up and reconditioning that Dragan does, let alone the complete refurb Curt typically does.

Most people other than Curt and one or two others do this because it's a hobby. They enjoy it. They might make a few bucks for their time, but they're not getting rich by any stretch of the imagination.

You want cheap? Great, buy cheap. You will generally get what you pay for. Curt's prices are higher because he's offering more. If you don't want what he's selling, then don't buy it. That doesn't mean it's a ripoff.
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post #23 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 12:57 PM
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I believe there was another reseller who bought their first half dozen or so machines from a junk dealer in Colorado who was unwilling to ship anywhere, but who had a semi trailer full of Marquees to sell.
.

wow you must have dug in the archives to find that one. I remember that really well from 5 years ago. It was a huge truck-load of Marquee's from Lucent technology's, something like 45 machines. Maybe you should post a link so that others can read about what happend with those machines.
I'm actually really fond of that chapter so I'll paraphrase. 45 Marquee 8500's were posted on E-bay and someone posted a link here at AVS. The forum went crazy, everyone wanted one. They wound up getting shipped all over the country, I can't even remember who bought most of them but I got a few. It was a real crap shoot for those that bought in bulk, sight unseen. The majority of the machines had either dead our really burnt tubes. I wound up doing some work to 3 or 4 of the machines I got from there and sold them.
I also actually helped at least 3 or 4 other people buy their first CRT projector directly from that place. I took my personal time and drove down to Denver and hand-picked out machines for forum members who asked for my help. I did it for free.
Who have you helped here none74 ? What have you ever contributed to this forum in anyway? It's easy to be a little rat and contribute nothing while attacking Curt, Terry, myself and others who post here every day helping others with their machines and home theatres. Go ahead and Enjoy yourself but It sure seems like since you got out-bid on that 9500Lc ultra you simply have an agenda to smear everyone you see as profiting from a CRT sale.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=934757

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post #24 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 01:06 PM
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Doing blue and red ACON convergence is only a tiny part of set up. it takes 5 to 10 minutes to do a manual converge let alone having an ACON do it.

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post #25 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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This is good discussion to have on the viability of a CRT solution. I've had a CRT TV for 5 years and it is just starting to show some problems, so I know that the technology is good. The TV has gotten way more use in that 5 years than the projector will get, so I'm probably looking at 8-10 years of life out of a CRT projector...assuming parts and support will be available for that long. Speaking of which, if I do have to replace a bulb (or all three), what is the general price to do that for a Marquee? Is it more or less than the typical $400 talked about for digitals?

A digital projector will not last that long...for the bulb at least. Can I expect to be able to find a buy bulbs for any digital I buy for the next 8-10 years? Will I have to plan on buying a few right away so I'm guaranteed to find one?
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post #26 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 02:01 PM
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I agree. With prices getting so low on all pj's including digital it is the best time to buy a crt for those who apprecite what it offers. It is not for the guy who wants to drop in BestBuy and pick up his $500 pj.
Debating on which is better or worse is all personal and both camps have their points but the $500 digital is never going to be the marquee 8500.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

JVC & NEC 8" CRT with 106" wide Stewart screen. All NHT speakers driven by Pioneer Elite AVR and bluray

Custom dedicated 8 seat theater

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post #27 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Doing blue and red ACON convergence is only a tiny part of set up. it takes 5 to 10 minutes to do a manual converge let alone having an ACON do it.

Is this in response to my comment above? If so I agree that its a small part of total initial setup but its 5 to 10 minutes I don't spend on several inputs on a monthly basis or so. Point is I let ACON do it on the various inputs while I am out of the room and its good enough for me. So I spend essentially no time converging blue and red.

And I don't do anything else either periodically like mechanical setup - Some of us just want to enjoy the CRTs display and not fuss all about it (Which I can do now that my intermittent loss of vertical sync mysteriously disappeared for over a month). Wasn't that you complaining about ringing and setup in another thread and therefor ditching your CRT to go to the ease of an expensive digital?
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post #28 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 02:31 PM
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I hate to post this, but CRT means cathode ray tube. A Marquee uses three CRTs, a blue, a red, and a green. As Cliffy might say, CRTS DON'T USE FREEKING BULBS! Changing a tube is expensive both in terms of tube costs and labor costs as well as reset up of the projector.

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post #29 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 02:35 PM
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I dont think crt is dead at all. I got into the front crt hobby becuase i got a new Mitsu rear and realized how great the pic was after i had it calibrated by A pro with a lumagen VP. That is how i stubled upon this forum. I had a few digitals before i finaly decided to try my hand at crt last november and am sooooo glad i did! Its a great hobby and since being here i have seen a lot of enthusiasm and some newbees coming on here getting excited about crt like our little newbie axel over there in sweden. he now, may think he knows what he's talking about but its just young arrogance and we all were like that once. I think its great to have the young get into this "old" technology that we still belive is superior. Also if the major manufacturers had not abandoned it I'm sure it would have still had much more room for improvment. Even if the present consumer realizes that the new digitlas wont last nearly as long as the Old CRT I dont think crt will make a come back even though it should. This has become a society of consumption and waste. Quality that is lasting has become an antiquated notion of late. I remember reading all the reviews of CRT's in the late 80s and through the 90's when digitals were just coming out and how a wish i had the 50,000 for a top of the line crt. I enede up with the first widescreen digital sony VPL W400q and loved it.....until i went to my local high end shop and they invited me "upstairs" to see the top of the line stuff a barco cine 8 and i was like WOW my digitla sucks ! So, since then i have always aspired to own a crt fprt, and until this forum i have alway thought they were still in the 25,000 dollar range.

I didnt but from a reseller and took the "cheap" way to crt but only because i am comfortable with fixing things and have a patiance for it. Other wise it would have been through someone like Curt or Tim. I forgot my point after rambling ! I guess its all relavent to each situation and each individual. its all about the love of cinema.

Athanasios
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post #30 of 85 Old 11-20-2007, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm View Post

Who have you helped here none74 ? What have you ever contributed to this forum in anyway?

You're funny, ha, ha, just for fun, I searched for my "contributions", there were over 140 pages of my posts trying to help others. But then again, how would you know, you've only been here less than half the time I have...newby(sp?)
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