TVONE Blending Info, General Q&A or just how to? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 879 Old 04-27-2008, 01:55 PM
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You wont have to run the 817 you can do the full 1080 as the TV-0ne zooms the image to the active are you want to use. this way you can use your original VP at a constant setting for all material and use the tv-one for different ratios, not sure if this is how others do it, I think now most use the VP for aspect and keep one output from the blender. But if you get the dual scaler unit you wont need the other VP. The C2-7000 series will do it all, however if you go with two separate units you might want a VP as I am not sure how the individual units would transfer the video signal to the other unit...I think it they do it but not sure how, I didn't have enough time to test the C2-2250 daisy chained the the C2-7200?

I agree - I already have the VP50Pro with HD-SDI, and therefore hope to find a new product from TVOne that has a digital in and out and just does scaling, frame rate changes and blending. Hopefully this will save me money.
I chose the oddball 1226 as it should produce a smoother picture than 1080. 1080 from 817 is probably much harder to do than 1226 from 817. I think of the analogy to first seeing a decent scaler create 720P out of 480I from a DVD. It is a 1:1-1/2 ratio and was very successful in making a nice picture - much more so than other ratios close to it.
1440X960 is also successful as it is a 2:1 ratio. I prefer DVD's scaled to 1440X960 over scaling them to 1080P. Others may disagree.

Thanks,
Bob
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post #182 of 879 Old 04-27-2008, 02:02 PM
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Mike - If I was lucky enough to have a pair of Mike Parker's 9" 'Quee's with extended bandwidth, I'd try ????X1634 which is just doubling the 817. Maybe Gino could try that if he gets one of the TVOne's that can do it?
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post #183 of 879 Old 04-27-2008, 02:06 PM
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BTW - I think the NAB is over, so shouldn't our TVOne engineer give us at least a little sneak preview!?!?
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post #184 of 879 Old 04-27-2008, 08:28 PM
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Just for those who want to get a jump on how to set up the blend. This is the TV-one quick set up guide:

Edge blend set up Guide

Athanasios
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post #185 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

BTW - I think the NAB is over, so shouldn't our TVOne engineer give us at least a little sneak preview!?!?

I second that. Do we even know how much that new single channel unit will cost MSRP ?

Oliver
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post #186 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 11:37 AM
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Hey, they have 3 7200 units on their Bstock page... wow... I thought these were supposed to be a little more affordable than this...

Brian
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post #187 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briands View Post

Hey, they have 3 7200 units on their Bstock page... wow... I thought these were supposed to be a little more affordable than this...

Thats not really too bad considering the DiVentix is 10,000 to 13,000.

And the C2-2250 are under 1500 so for 3,000 plus the cost od a dvi slitter you have a blend.

Athanasios
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post #188 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 12:46 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the current production models suffer from limited bandwidth issues that the new model(s) will cure?
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post #189 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 12:57 PM
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Boilermaker,

Aren't you better off price wise ( & in this case time wise too!) sending a Blu Ray player to JVB?

The 7310 has a pretty hefty msrp. according to the lit. I got at NAB

Mark Conner
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post #190 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 02:09 PM
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Quote:


Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the current production models suffer from limited bandwidth issues that the new model(s) will cure?

this is not to clear but.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOneEngineer View Post

Hi Oliver,

All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.

Regards
Rob

They have a dac capable of 240mhz pixel clock and I think the new software upgrades to the corio line will allow 1080p/60 and 1080p/72/75 with some timeing tweek's and with out being subsampled. At least that is what I understand
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post #191 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the current production models suffer from limited bandwidth issues that the new model(s) will cure?

Thats the idea .

Currently I run 1080p24 into the TVONE - And I dont see any reason not to.

I do understand that for games machines this is currently an issue.

Also some HD/Blu players dont "Force" 1080p24 so that could also be an issue - although in a few weeks (Middle of may) there will be a new "gismo" that should "Force" 1080p24 from ANY device and that includes PS3 - I will testing this unit and will report back how good it is . This "Gismo" is NOT a TVONE product.

I hope that most would agree that 1080p24 direct from the disc is an excellent starting point? - Maybe start a new thread if people want to chat about that.

Last few weeks I have been completing a large AV project, Im back now so should be able to give more time to this thread.

Oh! and just maybe I will have a new toy here to play with

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

Find me on the map :UK CRT : European CRT : Worldwide CRT
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post #192 of 879 Old 04-28-2008, 04:14 PM
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I filled out the entry form at the TVOne NAB exhibit & was notified today that I had won 10% off.

1st) I imagine everyone that entered came up a winner
2nd) This appears to be off msrp pricing direct from TVOne

The good news is they seem to be quite happy to apply this to anyone with whom I share my entry info.

Mark Conner
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post #193 of 879 Old 04-29-2008, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

They have a dac capable of 240mhz pixel clock and I think the new software upgrades to the corio line will allow 1080p/60 and 1080p/72/75 with some timeing tweek's and with out being subsampled. At least that is what I understand

As stated above the input path on the current units is limited to 108MHz and in the unit I tested (C2-260) there was also a limitation with regard to how many horizontal pixels could be processed (1280).

If there wasn't a limitation on the number of horizontal pixels you could do things like 1920 x 810 with 48 Hz for a scope image, but I was not able to do that.

Oliver
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post #194 of 879 Old 04-29-2008, 05:08 AM
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Aren't you better off price wise ( & in this case time wise too!) sending a Blu Ray player to JVB?

I'm looking into that right now, but am not finding prices that I like on the model I want.
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post #195 of 879 Old 04-29-2008, 05:14 AM
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I hope that most would agree that 1080p24 direct from the disc is an excellent starting point? - Maybe start a new thread if people want to chat about that.

I agree 100%! The only thing that is better than the best de-interlacer is not have to de-interlace at all. Nothing like starting with a pure progressive signal to begin with.

That new gizmo sounds real interesting. I intend on using HD-SDI, so am I assuming that the gizmo hooks up to the HDMI output - Is this correct?
My intention was to use the HDMI for the new audio codecs exclusively, and pick up the video from HD-SDI.

Thanks,
Bob
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post #196 of 879 Old 04-29-2008, 09:05 AM
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Oliver I agree with your comment,
Quote:


As stated above the input path on the current units is limited to 108MHz

But this is where TV-one has been unclear, i recieved an email, and it seems like they said it here also, that with new firmware they can change the 108Mhz sub sampling rate to something higher to fully utilize the 240Mhz DAC in their legacy units Aslo it is not clear but I think they may offer to upgrade those legacy units with the new hardware/chip upgrade . I wish Rob would comment on this, as i could be 100% wrong but i hope I am not

Athanasios
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post #197 of 879 Old 04-29-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post

Thats the idea .

Currently I run 1080p24 into the TVONE - And I dont see any reason not to.

I do understand that for games machines this is currently an issue.

Also some HD/Blu players dont "Force" 1080p24 so that could also be an issue - although in a few weeks (Middle of may) there will be a new "gismo" that should "Force" 1080p24 from ANY device and that includes PS3 - I will testing this unit and will report back how good it is . This "Gismo" is NOT a TVONE product.

I hope that most would agree that 1080p24 direct from the disc is an excellent starting point? - Maybe start a new thread if people want to chat about that.

Last few weeks I have been completing a large AV project, Im back now so should be able to give more time to this thread.

Oh! and just maybe I will have a new toy here to play with

Don't forget that occasionally someone may want to watch an HD Video which may be 1080i60...

Brian
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post #198 of 879 Old 04-30-2008, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

As stated above the input path on the current units is limited to 108MHz and in the unit I tested (C2-260) there was also a limitation with regard to how many horizontal pixels could be processed (1280).

If there wasn't a limitation on the number of horizontal pixels you could do things like 1920 x 810 with 48 Hz for a scope image, but I was not able to do that.

Oliver


Has anyone ever put a 1 on 1 off pattern on one of these units to see how well they actually resolve 1080p other than Oliver? To me this is key, without 1 to 1 pixel mapping there is no advantage to a blend, am I wrong about this?

Mike
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post #199 of 879 Old 04-30-2008, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeEby View Post

Has anyone ever put a 1 on 1 off pattern on one of these units to see how well they actually resolve 1080p other than Oliver? To me this is key, without 1 to 1 pixel mapping there is no advantage to a blend, am I wrong about this?

Mike

You are wrong

Why would that be the case? There are numerous advantages to a blend, namely full raster usage on a CIH cinemascope screen and complete resolvability. Think about it... 1080 lines with less bandwidth, and then you are stretching your raster much taller, makes it a piece of cake to get scanlines.

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post #200 of 879 Old 04-30-2008, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

You are wrong

Why would that be the case? There are numerous advantages to a blend, namely full raster usage on a CIH cinemascope screen and complete resolvability. Think about it... 1080 lines with less bandwidth, and then you are stretching your raster much taller, makes it a piece of cake to get scanlines.

Oh yes I agree about the bandwidth, but if the scaler cannot reproduce 1920 wide pixels across both projectors including blend zone as Oliver noted then you are losing some or most of the advantages of blending.

You still have the advantage of brightness and dynamic range but the scaler/blender is limiting the full horizontal resolution of Blu-ray/HD-DVD.

I would just like to see a 1:1 pattern like this one that Athanasios posted a while back in a Mike Parker thread.



Mike
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post #201 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 03:27 AM
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I would also like to see a pattern like this.

I was not able to generate this in my tests with a desktop of 1920 or more pixels. While there are other advantages to blending I think that not too many of us like to take 3 steps forward and 2 backwards with regard to resolution, I know I don't.

Oliver
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post #202 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 08:01 AM
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You guys just dont get what Gino said, key words here "FULL RASTER HIEGHT AND USE". the shots that show the full on/off patterns are using less raster than a blend will so of course it will resolve the one on one off patterns and with less bandwidth being used because now that entire 1920x1080 is being spread over two Projectors the 1080 will remain but instead of only being resolved in the short squished raster we all use now for 16x9 or 2.40:1 it gets expanded verticly to use the entire face of the tube which is easier for the projector to resolve. its easier to show more detail over a larger surface than a smaller one, thats what blending does, also by using the full tube and putting the projectors closer to the screen you get a hugh jump in Foot lamberts.

Athanasios
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post #203 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 09:18 AM
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I was not able to generate this in my tests with a desktop of 1920 or more pixels.

Hopefully I can help clear this up for you.
The reason you could not generate the results you wanted was because the A/D converter used in the model 260 you tried samples the analog video signal at too low a rate. In order to reconstruct any analog signal, the sampling frequency has to be at least twice the frequency of the video signal. As a result, you were unable to reconstruct the waveform. That is why the TVOne engineer stated that it is "sub-sampled". The new models reportedly have increased sampling frequency so that this no longer occurs.
From the standpoint of showing the pixel to pixel pattern, after proper blending, the pattern will always be considerably sharper than with just one projector. This is because each projector "sees" only 1/2 of the video frequency (less the blend percentage) that it would if there was only one projector.
As has been discussed many times in different threads, EVERY crt projector has its video frequency rolling off at the high frequencies of 1080P. Some are just worse than others. That is why the work that Mike Parker is doing is so imortant.
Hope this helps.
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post #204 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briands View Post

Don't forget that occasionally someone may want to watch an HD Video which may be 1080i60...

Hi,

1080i60 is fine direct into the TVONE units - I dont mention this as it is already possible.

A 1080p signal currently causes bandwidth issues BUT 1080p24 is within the available bandwidth and native to the disc - So I have tended to mention about that.

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

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post #205 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 06:06 PM
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I understand the weakness is not in the projectors the bandwidth requirements are very modest on a blend, you guys are taking for granted the scaler does a perfect job of mapping pixels. I think this is what Oliver is saying he did not see. I hope the new firmware resolves this issue and I am proven wrong, all it will take is a 1:1 pattern from the output to make me happy.

I really don't know the weakness is in the A/D because I was looking at the photo of the card and noted the card has on it an AD9880-150 it's the chip near the 40 pin connector. See image below and link to the datasheet. This is quoting directly from the datasheet:

The ultrawide bandwidth inputs of the AD9880 (330 MHz) can track the input signal continuously as it moves from one pixel level to the next, and digitizes the pixel during a long, flat pixel time.

A/D conversions are done on digital monitors & projectors all the time with very good results and this is the primary application for this chip. The device has on it a few other goodies I won't go into here.



Mike
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post #206 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 07:44 PM
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The DVX can do 1:1 no problems, so there is no step backwards in terms of resolution, only forwards actually Seems the new TVOne's have address any previous issues so blend away!

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post #207 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

The DVX can do 1:1 no problems, so there is no step backwards in terms of resolution, only forwards actually Seems the new TVOne's have address any previous issues so blend away!

I bet it can, perhaps I could sell my Z06 and get one, this $4.25 a gallon is killing me.


Mike
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post #208 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 09:20 PM
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Quote:


All of the units we have are capable of outputting 1080P 72/75, however they get sub sampled because of the scaler bandwidth limit :-( On all the 1T-C2, 1K,2K,7K products we use a DAC capable of a 240Mhz pixel clock.

Regards
Rob


He has stated that the new models will not have this issue, so I am anxiously awaiting any word on their new product(s).
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post #209 of 879 Old 05-01-2008, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeEby View Post

I bet it can, perhaps I could sell my Z06 and get one, this $4.25 a gallon is killing me.


Mike

I got 50 more mile per tank with my EVO VIII by not pounding it from every stop, so much so an old lady beeped as she passed my with her finger out the window

It was really funny.

Athanasios
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post #210 of 879 Old 05-02-2008, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

Hopefully I can help clear this up for you.
The reason you could not generate the results you wanted was because the A/D converter used in the model 260 you tried samples the analog video signal at too low a rate. In order to reconstruct any analog signal, the sampling frequency has to be at least twice the frequency of the video signal. As a result, you were unable to reconstruct the waveform. That is why the TVOne engineer stated that it is "sub-sampled". The new models reportedly have increased sampling frequency so that this no longer occurs.
From the standpoint of showing the pixel to pixel pattern, after proper blending, the pattern will always be considerably sharper than with just one projector. This is because each projector "sees" only 1/2 of the video frequency (less the blend percentage) that it would if there was only one projector.
As has been discussed many times in different threads, EVERY crt projector has its video frequency rolling off at the high frequencies of 1080P. Some are just worse than others. That is why the work that Mike Parker is doing is so imortant.
Hope this helps.

You're preaching to the choir here, I was just pointing the limitation on the input side to Athanasios as he seems to think that a new software can magically overcome these limitations. I cannot see how that would be the case.

Oliver
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