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post #1 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi All,
I admit to knowing very little about car audio, but it seems to me that generally accepted practice would be similar to home audio. I am wanting to upgrade the little Mustang I bought my daughter for graduation, in particular the bass. When I went into my local car audio store, they tried to convince me that putting the sub in the trunk was the way to go. Now I guess they do that all the time, but it goes against everything I know about audio to put the sub in a different room so to speak, and close the door. Doesn't work at home, and it doesn't make much sense in a car either. I'm just looking for a little more clean hard hitting bass.
Any help from the car audio experts here would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Russ

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If it's too loud, you're too old.
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post #2 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 04:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

Hi All,
I admit to knowing very little about car audio, but it seems to me that generally accepted practice would be similar to home audio. I am wanting to upgrade the little Mustang I bought my daughter for graduation, in particular the bass. When I went into my local car audio store, they tried to convince me that putting the sub in the trunk was the way to go. Now I guess they do that all the time, but it goes against everything I know about audio to put the sub in a different room so to speak, and close the door. Doesn't work at home, and it doesn't make much sense in a car either. I'm just looking for a little more clean hard hitting bass.
Any help from the car audio experts here would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Russ

For car audio, the trunk is the place to go. It all depends on the direction the speaker is firing, or if the box is ported, the direction the ports are facing. I have a 2002 Toyota Echo with 2 10" subs and a 1991 Mustang with 2 15" subs. The Echo has the subs in the trunk and I can hear the bass perfectly fine.
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post #3 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 04:42 PM
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if you can't get beyond the junk in the trunk, go for an under the seat subwoofer set up (if you have the room). you can build a box for this and find a slim mount subwoofer. connect amp, power to amp, and you're set.
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post #4 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.
They want to mount two 8" front firing (toward the interior of the trunk) slim line woofers in a ported box, but I'm not sure where the ports are. In the front I believe between the two drivers.
r

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post #5 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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If they are mounted in the trunk, are you HEARING it, or FEELING it? Or a little of both?

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post #6 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback. I believe the box they want to use is ported, not sealed. Is sealed preferable? It seems most of the response I have been getting is that using the trunk space is acceptable and maybe even preferable for a car. I have now decided to go with 10's rather than 8's. The other issue that has come to light is not having discrete trim ability for the sub. They apparently tie the trim capability to the main speakers, so if you increase the sub gain, all the bass is increased for the other speakers. I did get them to agree to put in a toggle so the sub can be turned off altogether is necessary.
Thanks
r

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post #7 of 21 Old 05-22-2009, 08:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I believe the box they want to use is ported, not sealed. Is sealed preferable? It seems most of the response I have been getting is that using the trunk space is acceptable and maybe even preferable for a car. I have now decided to go with 10's rather than 8's. The other issue that has come to light is not having discrete trim ability for the sub. They apparently tie the trim capability to the main speakers, so if you increase the sub gain, all the bass is increased for the other speakers. I did get them to agree to put in a toggle so the sub can be turned off altogether is necessary.
Thanks
r

10's are good, especially in a smaller car. With some external amps there is a phone jack looking port for the bass control knob. Mine goes from 0-11, yes...mine goes to 11.
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post #8 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 12:39 AM
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It's all about compromise. Sure having the sub up front in the cabin would be ideal. But where do you put it? Most shops are used to kids that want loud bass and that requires large speakers in large enclosures. However even a modest setup requires more space than is available in the cabin of a vehicle. There are those under-the-seat subs as mentioned above, but they will greatly lack in output and low frequency extension. The only real estate available in a car is in the trunk. Luckily in most vehicles there is only a little bit of foam from the back seat separating the two (less still in hatchbacks), so it really isn't an issue.

As for sealed or ported, that will be the same as with home audio. Each has their benefits and weaknesses. I'd say keep it simple and go with a sealed enclosure.

For control over the bass volume, you can get inline volume knobs installed. We do it all the time for boats that want quick control over tower speakers. Check out the PRC1 from Peripheral Electronics. Also, many head units have built in control over a dedicated subwoofer output. If you are planning on upgrading the head unit too, then look for one with this feature.
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post #9 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. I think I am going to try and get the installers to provide a sealed unit with an inline volume controller. I was a going to get dual units, but I think a single 10" would by adequate as I am concerned there isn't the room to tuck a dual in the back of the trunk and still have any usable space. Like you said, they are used to kids wanting big and powerful, and who cares how it sounds. The kids really have no idea what sounds good as long as it's loud. I am keeping the OEM head unit and running 4 new Kenwood component speakers (KFCP680C) front and rear off that unit. The only outboard amp will power the sub. Not too sure about tying the sub to the two rears. Won't the sub be trying to draw power from the head unit amps too? The installers don't seem to care as long as it makes noise.
r

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post #10 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Another idea I am contemplating is not installing a sub at all and maybe the Kenmwood mid woofs will provide adequate bass? Are there any component speakers systems out there known for their low freq. output? Any thoughts on that? I would really like to try the sub, but am I being overly concerned about lousy quality?
Thanks,
Russ

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post #11 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 10:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

Thank you. I think I am going to try and get the installers to provide a sealed unit with an inline volume controller. I was a going to get dual units, but I think a single 10" would by adequate as I am concerned there isn't the room to tuck a dual in the back of the trunk and still have any usable space. Like you said, they are used to kids wanting big and powerful, and who cares how it sounds. The kids really have no idea what sounds good as long as it's loud. I am keeping the OEM head unit and running 4 new Kenwood component speakers (KFCP680C) front and rear off that unit. The only outboard amp will power the sub. Not too sure about tying the sub to the two rears. Won't the sub be trying to draw power from the head unit amps too? The installers don't seem to care as long as it makes noise.
r

You totally bypass the head unit when using an external amp. You do run RCA cables, just so it can get the sound to the amp, but the speakers are driven directly from the external amp. If you are going with a single speaker, I would go with a single 12", but that's me. It would provide punchy bass (Rock and Metal) and be able to get low enough for that deep bass (Pop, rap, and R & B). You either need two separat amps, or an amp like the one I run, it's a 5 channel amp:

http://cgi.ebay.com/KICKER-ZX700-5-C...3%3A1|294%3A50

I love this amp, it is very good. It powers my components up front, my 6 x 8's and my 2 - 15" subs and sounds very clean.
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post #12 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 10:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

Another idea I am contemplating is not installing a sub at all and maybe the Kenmwood mid woofs will provide adequate bass? Are there any component speakers systems out there known for their low freq. output? Any thoughts on that? I would really like to try the sub, but am I being overly concerned about lousy quality?
Thanks,
Russ

Nothing can replace a sub in a car.
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post #13 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 10:09 AM
 
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Here's a couple pictures of my setup:

The car:



The head unit:



The components:



The rears:



The subs:

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post #14 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

I was a going to get dual units, but I think a single 10" would by adequate as I am concerned there isn't the room to tuck a dual in the back of the trunk and still have any usable space. Like you said, they are used to kids wanting big and powerful, and who cares how it sounds. The kids really have no idea what sounds good as long as it's loud.

That is definitely true. Dual subs will give you more output, but at the cost of a lot of trunk space and a larger amplifier required. If you are looking to just supplement what the front speakers lack, then a single 10 will be more than enough. As mentioned, a single 12 wouldn't hurt either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

I am keeping the OEM head unit and running 4 new Kenwood component speakers (KFCP680C) front and rear off that unit. The only outboard amp will power the sub. Not too sure about tying the sub to the two rears. Won't the sub be trying to draw power from the head unit amps too? The installers don't seem to care as long as it makes noise.

The installers will be using a unit that reduces the larger signal from the rear speakers down to a smaller signal that the input on the amplifier can use. They are called a hi/lo converter. So it will draw a little power, but not enough to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rt297 View Post

Another idea I am contemplating is not installing a sub at all and maybe the Kenmwood mid woofs will provide adequate bass? Are there any component speakers systems out there known for their low freq. output? Any thoughts on that? I would really like to try the sub, but am I being overly concerned about lousy quality?

There are some, but they are very high dollar and require outboard amplifiers themselves. A perfect example of this would be the Diamond Audio Hex Pro component set with a retail price of $1800. But then the sound from that setup IMO would be better than cheaper speakers off deck power and a sub.
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post #15 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thanks for the education guys. I just got back from the installer and I think I got my issues worked out. I ended up with a single sealed Rockford Fosgate 10" sub with a 600 watt Alpine amp to power it. This is supposedly their best unit before the Competition series. It fits nicely at the back of the trunk and they are putting in a toggle switch under the dash to kill the power if I don't like it. I realize this setup won't give me max spl, but that wasn't the object. Hopefully this is the best I can do for the price to get me the cleanest bass. I also ended up with BA component speakers all around so it should be a nice system.
Thanks for the guidance. I will pick it up this evening and report back the result if anyone is interested. I hope it works out for my daughter. My father had a brand new 1965 Mustang and it was the coolest car in town for a while there. I've always wanted another one, so this graduation gift is probably as close as I will ever get.
Thanks,
r

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post #16 of 21 Old 05-23-2009, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlkmgr View Post

if you can't get beyond the junk in the trunk, go for an under the seat subwoofer set up (if you have the room). you can build a box for this and find a slim mount subwoofer. connect amp, power to amp, and you're set.

Can you provide more info on this or links ? I would like to fix a small sub under my seat but I'm not clear on where/how to fix this to the car. Also any recommendations for a small sealed sub driver would be great.

If the sub goes under the seat where do you fix the amp ?
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post #17 of 21 Old 05-24-2009, 11:37 AM
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All of my subs have always been placed in the trunk. Many reasons for that, but mostly:

1. Almost all decent subs require at least 1 cu foot of space, usually more.
2. Bass is omnidirectional, and below 80hz, there is no "detail" in the bass that you could decipher from your ears anyway. Behind you is absolutely fine.
3. The trunk acts as a bandpass box in it's own right, allowing additional gain from the sub.


Anyway, my reply is mainly an execuse to post a variety of pics I just snapped. Seeing dysfunction26's reminded me I haven't snapped a photo of my car in a while (it is just sitting forlorn in the garage these days);

First, my dual subs in my honda. My custom made box, with 8812 Eclipse 12" subs in them.


The trick to packaging is finding a useful place to dump all the electronics. I mounted mine right to the sub itself, and left the rest just kinda floating on the floor behind the seat.


The honda system is bass-only, with everything else being stock. Mainly just a bass-head ride.

And of course my other system in the mustang. This one was based around SQ. Infinity separates up front, polk in the rear, and an SVS sub in the trunk.



Another round of ghetto wiring. It'd set up this way so I can pull the sub and all electronics for track day. Nothing is hardwird, I used a 240V plug to create a quick-disconnect for the power/ ground / signal lead for the amp, and everything is just bolt in. Taking it out is good fro about 1/10 a sec.



Another picture. In another thread I mentioned a parts express box. This is that $30 box. It's awesome, fit's the SVS sub perfectly.


And when the factory cover is over, all hidden anway. I had to re-install part of the rear seats (the car was gutted for race duty).


Old School alpine head unit from 95.


And of course I can't rave about Optima yellow tops without showing mine:


And a handy excuse to show off the polished chrome.

My Theater Build Thread Loganed 11/27/08
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post #18 of 21 Old 05-24-2009, 08:47 PM
 
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What do you have done to your GT? This was my friend;s Mustang who passed away. He had put full exhaust with shorty headers, 3.73 gears, short shifter, cold air intake, larger injectors. That's all I know he has done for sure, it is possible he changed the upper and lower, but I am not positive. Next year I am going to try and get TFS heads, upper and lower.
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post #19 of 21 Old 05-25-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

What do you have done to your GT? This was my friend;s Mustang who passed away. He had put full exhaust with shorty headers, 3.73 gears, short shifter, cold air intake, larger injectors. That's all I know he has done for sure, it is possible he changed the upper and lower, but I am not positive. Next year I am going to try and get TFS heads, upper and lower.

Everything. I'll PM you the details.

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post #20 of 21 Old 06-15-2009, 10:06 AM
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digital designs 1508 would sound good and get loud in a hatch
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post #21 of 21 Old 06-15-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dandan123 View Post

Can you provide more info on this or links ? I would like to fix a small sub under my seat but I'm not clear on where/how to fix this to the car. Also any recommendations for a small sealed sub driver would be great.

If the sub goes under the seat where do you fix the amp ?


When space is a premium and you can't give up the trunk, sometimes you have to get a little creative and find some space somewhere, in addition using a sub designed to operate in such a small enclosure makes a big difference in the way the bass will sound.

With that said, I ended up placing a single 8" JL Audio sub on the side of the passenger footwell. The passenger (most of the time it's the wife) still has enough leg room to stretch out and not be cramped- the only thing she doesn't like is when I turn it up! She doesn't like the leg/ankle massage .

A single 8" is just the right amount for my vehicle and besides I've long since outgrown my "bumpin" days. Besides the deck, the sub, and the amp to power the sub- everything else is the stock Bose system. The addition of the sub has made my listening pleasure more satisfying. Good luck on your project!

Here's some pics:

The car 2003 Porsche 911 C4 Cabriolet-



Pioneer AVIC-F90BT Deck-



JL Audio 8W1 Subwoofer-



Soundstream D100II Amplifier (Have since replaced it with an ARC Audio mini 125.2) -

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