Subs for my car - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-19-2010, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, i'm looking to get a pair of subs for my 1980 Camaro. If i get them i would put them in the trunk, plenty of room there. I am just not sure what i want, i've heard that square subs are better than round ones but i don't know for sure. I'm just looking for a decent pair of subs that won't cost me too much.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-20-2010, 11:26 AM
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Square subs, like square pizza, is a gimmick.

If square subs are so much better, then how come all high end subwoofer manufacturers have not switched to this?

The answer is that they are not better.

The only way I can see this working is if you subscribe to the belief that more SPL=better - and I doubt there are many around here who buy into that. Sound travels radially out from your speaker. When one part of the speaker intended to push out that sound is longer than another - how do you control the frequencies being produced by the speaker?

If all you care about is pushing more air - and therefore getting more SPL - then square is better.

If what you care about is accurately reproducing the signal being sent to the subwoofer - then it would seem that round is your only choice.

In the real world, all speakers are going to have some distortion - I guess the question is whether you care about that or not.
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post #3 of 29 Old 01-20-2010, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh ok, well this will help a lot! I don't know much about what i should be looking for in a sub, so that is why i am here. Any advice would be helpful!
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post #4 of 29 Old 01-20-2010, 01:14 PM
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Usually the best advice is not to look for a specific sub - but to look first at what you want to DO with it - and then that will help you (and others) find solutions that will work for your situation.

In a car, you'll automatically assume music.

How loud do you need it to be (what do you normally listen at)?
Do you have size constraints?
How about assembly/installation - will you DIY or will you be paying someone?
Does it need to be removable, or do you plan to allocate some trunk space to it permanently?
Do you already have an amp or will you buy one that matches your sub?
What is your Head Unit and what other speakers/amplification/EQ do you have?
And of course - what's your budget?

Frankly - this forum focuses heavily on HT and not so much car audio - you may get better advice on a car-audio specific forum - or even a Camaro-specific forum where people have posted their results in exactly or nearly the same car you have. I know my expertise is highly limited for car audio.
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post #5 of 29 Old 01-20-2010, 01:51 PM
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Go to your local install shop and talk to them, even if you wan't to do it yourself get a little info.
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post #6 of 29 Old 01-20-2010, 02:21 PM
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The problem with that is some local shops are complete idiots. Most will try and talk up only what they sell while saying everything else is crap.

Car audio specific forums are another hit and miss issue. Some sites will ridicule the noobs until they leave. Others push specific equipment. You almost have to visit three or four to find good bits of information.

Noubourne is correct in that you have to answer some questions first. His list is great to start with. What will the rest of your system consist of? What is your total budget for this project?

From here we can recommend subs ranging from 6.5" to 22" in diameter and not a single one will have the Kicker name on it (at least my recommendations won't have that name).
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post #7 of 29 Old 01-20-2010, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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How loud do you need it to be (what do you normally listen at)?
: Depends on what do you mean by normally listen at, it depends on various songs, but genre is normally rock, rap, pop. Obviously i don't want the bass to drown out all the treble, but i want it to the point where i can feel it. I'm not sure if that is an accurate description but it's the best way that i can think of to put it.

Do you have size constraints?
: If you mean as in size of the sub, nothing bigger than a 12".

How about assembly/installation - will you DIY or will you be paying someone?
: I would most likely do it myself, help from my dad if needed.

Does it need to be removable, or do you plan to allocate some trunk space to it permanently?
: I would permanently allocate some space, but would like it if i could unhook and remove without too much trouble

Do you already have an amp or will you buy one that matches your sub?
: Will have to buy one.

What is your Head Unit and what other speakers/amplification/EQ do you have?
: Not sure what you mean by Head Unit, as i already said i am pretty new to car audio, and audio in general.

And of course - what's your budget?
: Preferably no more than $700, possibly $1000, but i can't put that much in at once. I would have to do it at separate times.

Thanks again!
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post #8 of 29 Old 01-21-2010, 08:39 AM
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Head unit is the receiver up front that you're running everything out of.

I'm wondering about your 12" constraint. Is that due to myths you've heard about what woofers are capable of "tight" bass? - From a size constraint standpoint I guess I was looking more at the dimensions you'll be able to use for your trunk than a woofer size. Trunk space dimensions will determine what size box you can fit - and in my opinion as far as boxes go - the bigger the better.

From a removeable standpoint - in my vehicle I had the installers wire the amp to the back seat and bolt it on there - that leaves only two wires going to my subwoofer box - which is much easier to remove than unhooking all the amplifier connections. You might think about that kind of setup.
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post #9 of 29 Old 01-21-2010, 03:58 PM
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Does the 1980 Camaro have the huge area in the back of the hatch or is it a real trunk? I'm not familiar with them until the 1984 model that my college roommate had.
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post #10 of 29 Old 01-21-2010, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Well i don't think i could put them in the back seat of my car, and i will have a full size spare in my trunk. So i am trying to figure out some way to work around the tire, i won't put them on the back seat though.

P.S. I was talking to a friend of mine and he suggested 2 12" subs, with a 1000w amp. Brands suggested were Pioneer, Memphis, and JL Audio. I was looking at JL's, they are a bit exspensive, and i in turn decided to look at Pioneer. This is what i found: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...mpion/TS-W303R

Still browsing for an amp at the moment, your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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post #11 of 29 Old 01-21-2010, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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It's an actual trunk, my dad is making me keep the full sized spare in the trunk (why couldn't they make a space saver for that year?!?!) so i guess we will just have to see how much room i have after i have the tire in the trunk.
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post #12 of 29 Old 01-22-2010, 09:47 AM
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-22-2010, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, thanks a ton. I will browse some more, but i don't want to spend more than $100 for one speak. That way i have extra money for other things. Anyways i may have to get a new head unit, totally forgot to check to see if it supported a sub. But thanks for all the opinions, will ask for anything else if something comes up.
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-23-2010, 11:52 AM
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Depending on the power and enclosure, a single high quality 12" may perform better than dual 12's of a lesser quality.

Even if your head unit did not have a sub output built it, all it needs is a pre-amp out and you can use an external crossover. Yes, more equipment but it is possible. In my last two installs I used Pioneer head units that had sub outputs. The head unit in my car also has built in USB. I have added an SD card reader and have six or seven SD cards that I keep music on. I like the WMA 320kbps format as it is the highest quality the Pioneer will play back through the USB port.

I will mention Pioneer head units every time. I have been a fan since '84 and used them in my cars since '86. My last one was good for 14 years covering two cars.
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post #15 of 29 Old 01-27-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noubourne View Post

Square subs, like square pizza, is a gimmick.

If square subs are so much better, then how come all high end subwoofer manufacturers have not switched to this?

The answer is that they are not better.

The only way I can see this working is if you subscribe to the belief that more SPL=better - and I doubt there are many around here who buy into that. Sound travels radially out from your speaker. When one part of the speaker intended to push out that sound is longer than another - how do you control the frequencies being produced by the speaker?

If all you care about is pushing more air - and therefore getting more SPL - then square is better.

If what you care about is accurately reproducing the signal being sent to the subwoofer - then it would seem that round is your only choice.

In the real world, all speakers are going to have some distortion - I guess the question is whether you care about that or not.

yea.. your wrong on so many levels Im not even gonna start

OP Look at ID companies, awesome performance Minus the 150% markup
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-27-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlj5242 View Post

Pioneer is only good for their head units. Their subs are not good.

Here are some examples of very good subs you may not have heard of. This is no where close to an entire list.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-466
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-404
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-185
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=293-620
http://aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/p...products_id=65
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraud...iew.shopscript
http://www.sundownaudio.com/index.ph...series-12.html
http://stereointegrity.com/mag.php
http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=693
http://www.incriminatoraudio.com/upd...ge=2&product=1
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/i...tion/dcon.html
http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp12_s...formation.html
http://www.audioque.com/aq/
http://www.pierceaudioproducts.com/
http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_21

And if you want to buy a box, again PE is the way to go.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=260-648

With this box work with all of the subs listed? No. This is just a list to look at and ideas to consider. If you don't want to lose any trunk space, then an IB sub is something to consider. Total SPL is lower but sound quality of a proper IB is much better.


LMAO The guy saying pioneer subs suck is the one suggesting Daytons?> ??

LOL where are you ppl coming from?? If you dont know what your talking about and just try to throw the kid what answers YOU think are good, your Extremely misleading him.. Ive been in The car audio scene for 15 years, Competing for 10 and certified for 6, and sold at a CA shop for 4 . Ive designed and build every enclosure Ive ever owned, and know what im talking about.. These 2 dont..


FYI rlj.... Do some research before you use your walmart / best buy car audio knowledge to give advice, And google SCOTT OWENS .. Actually Ill do it for ya.. The world record sub is laying in front of the trophies....


http://image.caraudiomag.com/f/87809...cott_owens.jpg
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post #17 of 29 Old 01-27-2010, 10:25 PM
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Heres that "crappy" pioneer that shattered world records ...


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...PL/TS-W5000SPL
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post #18 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 09:04 AM
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I've been out of the game for awhile, but if I remember right, that's what we call a 'fart cannon'.
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post #19 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 09:17 AM
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im using a 10" pioneer 1200 watt max with an 1000 watt amp turned half way and if i want all bass it will give me all bas but if i lower it on the head unit it blends really nice and sound good.
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post #20 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 09:22 AM
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I have had a Pioneer DEH-MP3900 head unit for almost 2 years now and I couldn't be happier with it. Infinity Kappa component speakers front & rear powered by a very inexpensive Jensen 440 watt amp, a single Boston 12" G51244 (only 450 watts RMS) coupled with their 12" passive radiator powered by Alpine 500 watt amp. I did all of the work myself with no prior experience. Thanks to folks at Crutchfield and a buddy of mine where I work. Total cost was less than $900 thanks to Ebay and just plain careful, painstaking internet browsing.
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post #21 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subliminal View Post

I've been out of the game for awhile, but if I remember right, that's what we call a 'fart cannon'.

That wasnt the point.. He said pioneer makes junk subs, so I proved him wrong
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post #22 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsponder View Post

im using a 10" pioneer 1200 watt max with an 1000 watt amp turned half way and if i want all bass it will give me all bas but if i lower it on the head unit it blends really nice and sound good.

You guys need to stop listing subs and amps by the ratings you see on them.. Those are max ratings and there for advertisement to ppl to get suckered in , Like whoooo 1200 watt sub for $100 ??? WOW I MUST HAVE..... No .. that sub is in all reality a cheap sub with 200-300 rms .. If i put 1000 watts to it daily it would be toast in a matter of hours, the voice coils are just to small for any sort of hi continuous power... The amp you think is 1000 watt./ Lol .. no.. Not even close.... Good rule of thumb..

For a QUALITY amp you will pay $ .50 / per rms watt.. And that will give you UNDERrated power , meaning it will bench more, usually alot more than its claimed to.. Your pioneer is HIGHly OVER rated which Im guessinf claims 400 or so rms? WEll take about 5-10% off that and what you have will then be a 375watt rms amp

So unless you paid around $500 for that pioneer your not getting what you think you are




EDIT


And ppl, please understand.. the gain on your amp IS NOT A VOLUME CONTROL!!!!! It is meant to match the voltage from your Head unit, and depending on the preout voltage of it, the results may vary.. I have an eclipse HU with a 5 volt preout, which is matched to my amp @ 36 volts @ 1 ohm.. All your doing by using that gain on the amp is creating distortion and wayyyy overworking things.. THATS how subs are blown.... I could put 5 times rated power to my subs, but as long as the gains are set properly i will be just fine.. Bottom line . dont frikkin use the gain as a volume knob, thats not what its for ..
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post #23 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 11:18 AM
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OP, There are some great car audio forums but I think you will find as many recomendations as there are products on the market.

Last time I did something like you are talking about, on the cheap, I bought a JLAudio 10W1V2 and a 'vintage' Xtant amp off the Bay. Built a box off of JL's specs, used the speaker outputs into the amp and the amps internal low pass filters. As little tuning and blending and it sounded pretty darn good for less then $200. Similar size car with sub in trunk.

If you want two, grab two of these (about $170), a Xtant or JL mono/bridgable (or pick your favorite but these are readily available and last) that has a built in low pass (about $100 to $150), mount the amp to the box and use a quick disconnect (radio shack or others have what you need), build your box (Lowes and such has cheap 'automotive' carpet to finish it) and fashion a quick release hold/tie down and there you go. Oh, add handles to the box for easy removal. $300 - $400 and you are off an running. Save the rest of your money.

Now you just need to learn how to set the amps gains, crossovers and levels. Have fun!
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post #24 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camaro16 View Post

How loud do you need it to be (what do you normally listen at)?
: Depends on what do you mean by normally listen at, it depends on various songs, but genre is normally rock, rap, pop. Obviously i don't want the bass to drown out all the treble, but i want it to the point where i can feel it. I'm not sure if that is an accurate description but it's the best way that i can think of to put it.

Do you have size constraints?
: If you mean as in size of the sub, nothing bigger than a 12".


How about assembly/installation - will you DIY or will you be paying someone?
: I would most likely do it myself, help from my dad if needed.

Does it need to be removable, or do you plan to allocate some trunk space to it permanently?
: I would permanently allocate some space, but would like it if i could unhook and remove without too much trouble

Do you already have an amp or will you buy one that matches your sub?
: Will have to buy one.

What is your Head Unit and what other speakers/amplification/EQ do you have?
: Not sure what you mean by Head Unit, as i already said i am pretty new to car audio, and audio in general.

And of course - what's your budget?
: Preferably no more than $700, possibly $1000, but i can't put that much in at once. I would have to do it at separate times.

Thanks again!


I had a 88 camaro and you could easily do 2 12s ported.. For 1000 bucks you have a ton of options.. I would suggest 2 dc audio level 3s and a Sundown audio saz 1500d.. Both are top of the food chain and have a great track record and CS.. I run 2 dc level 3 12s in my daily car now with a memphis mc1000d, and Have won 4 of my last 6 shows, and This is just my daily driver , nothing special, other than the box i built..

If you want less 2 dc level 2 10s with the sa z 1000d

If you want just one there is the level 4 sub, with the saz 1000d would be excellent. Im biased to DC , because I have heard or owned pretty much everything else, and these things are bullet proof , All setups i listed will be under $1000 and you wouldnt be another kid on the block" withh the same overpriced crap as everyone else, and will more than likely be louder and sound better


the amps are priced very good

saz1000d is around $325
saz1500d is about $425


and the subs are around 2-400 depending on what one you go with


Sundown amps

http://www.sundownaudio.com/index.ph...mplifiers.html


Dc subs..

http://www.dcsoundlab.com/woofers.html
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post #25 of 29 Old 01-28-2010, 11:49 AM
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found this.. They are having a sale on the Sundown 1000d amp.. down from 315 to $275 shipped.. This s an unreal price and is one of the best amps out there.. period.. If you dont get this now , your crazy


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ale-price.html
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post #26 of 29 Old 01-30-2010, 09:46 PM
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noobs get ignored often on all kinds of forums, there's just too much info readily available for someone not to do the most basic of research and that turns people away quick, from my experience, those asking the most basic of questions like the OP tend to get overwhelmed at the time and expense of putting together a good car audio system and end up with something from best buy

so, fwiw, lol

good sub drivers are a dime a dozen nowadays, anything on on rlj5242's list would work, look for sale pricing, some of those brands have developed huge cult followings , Image Dynamics IDQ10V2 are down to around $160 each

inexpensive high quality, high power amps are getting tougher to find, that Sundown deal is awesome, the Elemental Designs Nine.1 for $195 is a steal

high quality well built affordable enclosures are real hard to find imo, here's a link to a real top tier box builder
http://www.poundthatsound.com/

stick with a sealed setup if you build the box yourself, ported DIY enclosures are too hit and miss for a noob car audio build, custom sealed are cheaper than custom ported, a small high quality 1.5ft'er might cost $150,

with $1000 budget, i think i would personally go right now with an 15" SSA XCON in a huge ported box or a pair of 10" Dcons in a smaller ported box,

oh and read up on the car audio forums alot
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-22-2010, 05:05 PM
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People worry to much about creating sub-bass in a vehicle which by the way is the easiest thing. Midnass on the other hand, not so easy. true SPL is science and try try again. Not easy after a certain point.

Your budget should be able to do a very respectable set up, you sound similar to my son and what he wanted to do. I am a big woofer guy but with his we went with 4 eight inch subs. and a 1000 watt Sundown amp. Look into Amazon, they HAD the Phoenix gold RSdC subs on sale for like 80 bucks (10's and 12's). they play well sealed and ported. I agree with a previous post though, build it sealed or buy/have a box design/blueprint done for you. Look for wiring kits on sale. Radioshack had Monster brand 4 gauge kits for like 15-25 bucks. Give knukonceptz a look.

Stay away from the mainstream brands you can get better for less.

If I recall, there are 6X9 holes on the rear deck. I can't remember if the front speakers are in the dash or doors. A pain either way as I think if doors it was funky 4X6 shallow mount. Anyway, a decent head that will play mp3 and ipod controls can be had for 150-200 authorized with warranty. Buy a set of 6X9's that are decent. look at ebay, woofersetc.com,sonicelectronix.com and millionbuy.com I think they may all be tied to Amazon as well.

Hell, for decent 6X9's even the more decent ones from walmart would work. Or Phoenix gold had the rsd 6" components on sale for 40 bucks shipped if I recall. Look at a set or 2 of those and get your dads help to figure a way to mount them. It's a good project for you and your dad.

Sorry about my rambling. Look for a decent 2 or 3 channel amp on ebay or used. To power your non-sub speakers.Expect to spent under a 100 for a pretty good amp. remember, power is a commodity. You can buy expensive or cheap. It's just power. What you are hoping to get is clean power and longevity out of the equipment. Bells and whistles are nice and name brand penis lengthening are cool I guess but I rather put money saved into more equipment.

And before anyone flames me, I am not saying that buying a kraco/sparcomatic/big lots brand is the way to go but odds are you are not going to tell the difference in a 200 dollar amp and a 2000 dollar amp in a 1980 Camaro driving 65 miles an hour playing rap or rock or pop especially from a MP3.

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post #28 of 29 Old 02-22-2010, 10:21 PM
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I agree with cubdenno. No offense, but in older cars that have got loud engines, aren't acoustically sound, and don't block out outside sounds - a high quality sub will not sound a heck of a lot better than a mediocre valued sub.

Personally I would settle for cheaper subs and invest the extra money in a better setup for a home theater (where you can control all those variables).
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-26-2010, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

LMAO The guy saying pioneer subs suck is the one suggesting Daytons?> ??

LOL where are you ppl coming from?? If you dont know what your talking about and just try to throw the kid what answers YOU think are good, your Extremely misleading him.. Ive been in The car audio scene for 15 years, Competing for 10 and certified for 6, and sold at a CA shop for 4 . Ive designed and build every enclosure Ive ever owned, and know what im talking about.. These 2 dont..


FYI rlj.... Do some research before you use your walmart / best buy car audio knowledge to give advice, And google SCOTT OWENS .. Actually Ill do it for ya.. The world record sub is laying in front of the trophies....


http://image.caraudiomag.com/f/87809...cott_owens.jpg

Wow. I need to check back more often to see if I'm called out on my suggestions. And I do stick to my opinion that the Pioneer is not appropriate for the OP's application. If he wanted an SPL vehicle, then I'd suggest something like the Pion.....Nope. Still wouldn't suggest it. Probably the Steve Meade Ascendant Audio sub.
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