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Old 04-13-2010, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a formula or something to figure what the right levels to set the knobs to? When i got it back from installation, it kept cuttin off on me, so i have been trying to find the best settings blindly...
I have 2 Kenwood W2511 10" w/ Ample amp, details for both:

Kenwood W2511 speakers: Product MPN
MPN: KFC-W2511
Key Features
Car Speaker Type: Component
Elements: 1-Way
Car Speaker Function: Subwoofer
Size: 10" x 10"
Nominal Power Handling: 300 Watt RMS
Technical Features
Peak Power Handling: 1000 Watt
Frequency Response: 30 Hz - 1 kHz
Sensitivity: 90 dB
Impedance: 4 ohm (Dual Coil)
Components
Woofer Material: Poly / Plastic
Surround Material: Rubber
Mounting
Enclosure: Non-Enclosed
Top Mounting Depth: 5.63 In.
Bottom Mounting Depth: 5.88 In.
Mounting Diameter / Length: 9.06 In.
Miscellaneous
UPC: 019048170538
Product ID: 40461977

A242X:
Dual Channel, 300 W x 2, S/N Ratio: 90 dB

Released 2 years ago
Amplifier Type Dual Channel

MPN A242X

RMS Power at 2 Ohms 300 W x 2

RMS Power at 4 Ohms 200 W x 2

Signal to Noise Ratio 90 dB

UPC 693012004267





Thanks
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:44 AM
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I tried posting in the other thread you have but for some reason it wouldn't let me so I found you here. Pretty much I generally set the crossover for customers' subs at 100Hz (depends on their speaker setup) but for myself I never have it above 90hz and sometimes have set it as low as 75-80 hz. Other than messing up your sound stage by being able to localize where the bass is coming from having a high crossover point for your subs isn't bad. It won't hurt your subs or amplifier that you are using with your subs. The pictures you provided tells me two things 1.) it looks like a fairly clean setup 2.) it looks like they wired your subs in stereo, which isn't a bad thing, but I never wire subs on an amp in stereo. It shouldn't change anything (especially if your headunit has a subwoofer RCA pre-out) it's just something I never do. Also, that blue wire is your power wire and the black one is your ground. I can't tell what gauge they are though. It looks like 8 awg, but it could honestly be as big as 4 awg or as small as 10awg the way those pics were took.

After seeing the install (or part of it) I'd say there's either a problem with the amp itself (defective) or there is a wiring problem in the subwoofer box and with out pulling out the subs and taking some pics I couldn't be sure where the problem is. So my advice is to take it back to the shop that installed it. The install doesn't look bad and most reputable shops have lifetime warranty on their labor so it should be free to atleast figure out what the problem is. If you bought the equipment from them then they will also replace it under the warranty (if the stuff is still under a warranty) and you won't be charged for that either. If you didn't buy the equipment from them they can atleast let you know what they think is wrong and you can go from there.

I used to run a store that was located in the ghetto and we had a couple of installers with featured installs in Lowrider and other national magazines so don't count these guys out yet.

Good luck

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Old 04-14-2010, 01:01 PM
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Barring something really wired incorrectly, I would play your stereo like you normally do. When/if it shuts off, go back and feel the amp. Is it smoking hot? If it is read below.


So you are running 2 dvc subs (each coil is 4 ohms) to your amp. Each sub is wired so that your amp is seeing a 2 ohm load stereo.

This is how I am reading the current wiring set up from the info you have given...

Looks like you have the max bass boost set with gain set at 3/4 from what I can tell.

My guess is that you are just asking for a bit to much out of your amp. Not knowing what you have the head unit bass control and level set at. When you add an EQ boost to the signal, you are asking the amp to work X times harder.

Since most low frequencies are recorded mono wiring stereo for sub bass is ok.

I agree with Natedog, the wiring looks adequate from the pics but could be possibly undersized. Just can't tell.

Crossover frequency is really a setting that is dictated by your system. You can set anywhere. The smaller speakers you have up front, the higher you will want the crossover as the subs will be required to help with midbass reproduction. Lowering the crossover just cuts midbass out of the sub (in my opinion as it should be)

Localization of the sub is often incorrectly diagnosed as to high of a crossover. It is most of the time due to panel vibration caused by the resonance of the panels. Also believe it or not, even the seat you sit on can cause localization of the subs when the seat back vibrates to a bass note, hard to fight how our bodies perceive,react to and localize sound.

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Old 04-14-2010, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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hey thanks yall, im checkn in on my phone, maneuvering on here is slow lol so i will get back when im on my computer.
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Old 04-14-2010, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Nate, you're absolutely right they hooked it into my stereo, everything is stock (i just got the car mid February).
It doesn't get hot, just warm.
If i remember right, he said 8 gauge wire...
I set the dB to where i think is 90 because i re-read this part:

Nominal Power Handling: 300 Watt RMS
Technical Features
Peak Power Handling: 1000 Watt
Frequency Response: 30 Hz - 1 kHz
Sensitivity: 90 dB

and realized lol. I had it up probably 120, and the Hz was about 100 mark (hard to tell with no numbered markings). Now the Hz is @ around double that when i turned em during lunch and on the way home they cut off once because i turned the volume up 1 degree, restarted the car with volume lower and then turned down the dB a scosche. Also my bass volume remote knob to the amp is up all the way. It did bring out the bass like i want it more with the Hz doubled. Since it says it can take up to 1 kHz under 90 dB, should i max it at it's 250?

I was told it's not crossed over, so it should be hitting @4 ohms, and crossed is @2 ohms? What is the difference of the 2? I read what you said how it takes the mids out, which my stock speakers handle fine, but if i can get the settings right the way it's already hooked up, i'm cool.
I do have the Bass Boost set to 12 dB. Should i set it to 6, or 0 dB?

Appreciate it guys
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Old 04-14-2010, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdub420 View Post

Nate, you're absolutely right they hooked it into my stereo, everything is stock (i just got the car mid February).
It doesn't get hot, just warm.
If i remember right, he said 8 gauge wire...
I set the dB to where i think is 90 because i re-read this part:

Nominal Power Handling: 300 Watt RMS
Technical Features
Peak Power Handling: 1000 Watt
Frequency Response: 30 Hz - 1 kHz
Sensitivity: 90 dB

and realized lol. I had it up probably 120, and the Hz was about 100 mark (hard to tell with no numbered markings). Now the Hz is @ around double that when i turned em during lunch and on the way home they cut off once because i turned the volume up 1 degree, restarted the car with volume lower and then turned down the dB a scosche. Also my bass volume remote knob to the amp is up all the way. It did bring out the bass like i want it more with the Hz doubled. Since it says it can take up to 1 kHz under 90 dB, should i max it at it's 250?

I was told it's not crossed over, so it should be hitting @4 ohms, and crossed is @2 ohms? What is the difference of the 2? I read what you said how it takes the mids out, which my stock speakers handle fine, but if i can get the settings right the way it's already hooked up, i'm cool.
I do have the Bass Boost set to 12 dB. Should i set it to 6, or 0 dB?

Appreciate it guys

First thing. Set bass boost to 0. I know you lose some bass. But unless you don't mind the amp shutting off and possibly having to replace it due to premature failure, keep it at zero

2. That bass control knob is most likely a remote gain control. And you have it maxed out. Also a bad thing, see reaon above. the gain control is not a volume knob. An amp makes a finite, specific amount of power. Cleanly.

The misunderstanding is turning up the gain makes the amp put out more power. wrong.

you are feeding the amplifier a signal (input signal). from 0volts to lets say 4 volts. The gain allows you to match the input signal to a specific output. So when the gain is all the way down, you may never get full power out of the amp. and when the gain is all the way up you get full power out of the amp with the volume knob of the head unit at 1/2. Which may seem cool but then you are really into a song and you turn the volume knob to 3/4. Now you are clipping the amp. asking it to produce more power than it can. Things heat up, stsart sounding bad but with subs, you may not hear the bad sound. etc...

I am still guessing that if you turn the gain down to half. and leave the bass control alone, all will be fine. If you get pissy with the output, its time to consider a mono sub amp for those subs. and really get some thump out of them!! Use the amp you got now for the full range speakers.

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Old 04-15-2010, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL i was told it was the bass volume! Damn glad i came here, and i can verify.

I turned the gain remote down to half, on the amp i tuned the Hz to around 100, and the Gain i like how it sounds on the higher end..
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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i also thought this amp had more power..
With these speakers, what amp would you guys suggest for max thumpage? (Been a percussionist for 18 years so i rEaLlY like my bass)
I assume a 600W because each speakers nominal RMS is 300?
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdub420 View Post

i also thought this amp had more power..
With these speakers, what amp would you guys suggest for max thumpage? (Been a percussionist for 18 years so i rEaLlY like my bass)
I assume a 600W because each speakers nominal RMS is 300?

Without seeing your entire setup, its hard to tell entirely what is wrong or advise with 100% certainty I am right.

As for more bass, is your enclosure sealed or ported?

considering you are running this thing from the factory head unit and in a stereo configuration, I am thinking you might try what Natedog recommended.

Since your subs are dvc 4 ohms, series wire each sub to be an 8 ohm load and then parallel wire them to amp for a 4 ohm mono load. See if you get an increase in bass. You shouldn't, but stranger things have happened!

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Old 04-16-2010, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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My box is ported. I'll get some more pics when it stops raining...

8 ohm?? my amp can't do that...
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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oh i think i see what you're saying, i'm cool right now..

I'll get better speakers and WAY better amp probably in a few months. It's doing good now, but i am lacking the bass that i want...
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:25 AM
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I've been away for awhile (moved to a different place, been super busy) but pretty much from what I've read so far it seems like you had the gain set to high, coupled with wanting your bass boost. I've seen this alot when customer will come in and complain about the equipment being broken. That amp is rated for 300W rms on each channel at 2 ohms and I assume that's how it is wired (2 ohm stereo setup). Which, whether you wire them mono or wire them stereo I don't think you'll see more output. I just like to always wire the subs mono on an amp, it's just a thing and it really doesn't matter either way in this instance. Same reason that I always put my front speakers on channels 1 and 2 and subs on bridged channels 3 and 4 for four channel amps. My installers would always switch it around on me (like it matters as long as the right signal is getting to the right channel) because they knew it irritated me, when they knew I was going to inspect the vehicle before I passed the keys off to the customer.

So all in all it sounds like you are having gain issues and are wanting more bass than what your equipment can produce. The only way to remedy this is to either add more speakers, more power, or both. For reference, on average, humans perceive a 6DB increase in sound as "twice as loud". So if your system is putting out 115DB and you want it "2x louder" you would need roughly 121DB to achieve that result. Also, keeping the same power (600W rms) and doubling the cone area (going from two 12's to four 12's) would give you roughly a 3DB increase, while keeping the same cone area and doubling the power (going from 600W rms to 1200W rms) would do the same (net a 3DB increase). Doing both would get you a 6DB increase. These factors are all if the subs are the same as what you have. There are high efficiency subs, etc.. that will skew those numbers so that's an "on average" basis.

Cubdenno, for reference there is research that the human ear can localize sound (all things being equal) above 80Hz. Granted, box building, speaker placement, sound deadening all effect the sound stage, especially in a car. I saw my buddy take 3rd in the national Pro championship in SQ because the judges thought his soundstage was too high.......Not one speaker was above the dash or behind the listener. We mounted everything (including the subs) up front in his BMW 5 series. 3rd was still decent but we were hoping we'd take first, points wise though less than 1 full point seperated 1st, 2nd, and 3rd that year so that was good.

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Old 04-17-2010, 06:30 AM
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OH! Cdub if you want to rattle your fillings loose pick up a pair of Image Dynamics IDMax 12's and pair them up with a Crossfire 1000D amp (1000W RMS rated, does more like 1100-1200rms) each. A 2.5 CF box per sub (5.0CF total) ported at 35Hz would be great for rap/hip-hop and a 1.25CF per sub (2.5CF total) sealed box works great for all other music.

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Old 04-17-2010, 09:43 AM
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Natedog,

That's why I don't like SQ comps. It's like ice skating. ALL purely subjective. I will dig out my AES papers but if I will find them for the exact frequencies.

A few principles of sound localization relative to the discussion :

- The dimensions of the outer ear are simply too small to affect the acoustic transfer function to our eardrums below about ~1kHz, certainly below ~500Hz. Therefore, for midbass frequencies (not necessarily midrange, mind you) we can think of our heads as the classic "sphere with a hole in each side".

- An acoustic source playing midbass freqs is ABSOLUTELY localizable ... but the ear/brain relies on inter-aural time differences, rather than inter-aural intensity differences, in the midbass. The wavelengths are simply too long for even "head shadowing" to play a role.

- The real situation has two sources (drivers) and two receivers (ears) of course, but it's instructive to decompose the problem and consider a single midbass driver, plus two ears, to understand how that single midbass driver is localized.

Conclusions :

- In the midbass region, there's a "circle of confusion" ... any point on this circle is indistinguishable from any other point. The circle is in a plane perpendicular to a line drawn between the ears, with it's center on that line. A driver at any point on this circle will generate the same inter-aural time difference to our "spherical heads" as any other point on the circle. It's very important to understand the simple geometry that makes this a FACT ... not open to interpretation.

- For a wide soundstage, you still want this "circle" to be as far left (and right) as possible.

How it pertains to midbass driver placement :

- There's nothing fundamental that prevents rear-mounted midbass drivers from "linking" to higher frequency drivers which the ear can localize to the front. Front localization involves outer ear dimensions, head shadowing, etc ... none of which pertains to midbass freqs below maybe ~500Hz.

- It's a MUCH better idea to put rear midbass drivers in the rear quarter panels, rather than in the rear deck. Drivers in the rear deck will be located directly BEHIND your head, no better ... from a stage width perspective ... than midbass drivers located directly in FRONT of your head. You still want the "circle" as far left/right as possible, or else the stage will be collapsed.

- Time alignment, both parallel and delta, helps of course.

- The key to making this illusion work is to make sure that the drivers aren't playing frequencies they're not supposed to. Shallow slope xovers, driver or amplifier distortion, panels ratlling/vibrating ... these will all allow driver localization. I strongly recommend playing pink noise through the midbass driver ALONE ... with the appropriate crossover, of course ... and look or listen for signs of higher frequencies. Solve the problems found. You MUST take this step before you can judge the success of the illusion.

I am copying and pasting from another source.

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Old 04-17-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedog51 View Post

OH! Cdub if you want to rattle your fillings loose pick up a pair of Image Dynamics IDMax 12's and pair them up with a Crossfire 1000D amp (1000W RMS rated, does more like 1100-1200rms) each. A 2.5 CF box per sub (5.0CF total) ported at 35Hz would be great for rap/hip-hop and a 1.25CF per sub (2.5CF total) sealed box works great for all other music.

Cdub,

ID subs are nice, but for what you are wanting, a little overpriced. They are subs for gods sake. With an older motor design and a premium pricetag. If you need them for street cred, then buy them. But reality dictates that cheaper priced brands will do as good/better in producing frequencies below 125 hertz. FOR LESS MONEY!

I am a ported enclosure fan. I like the extended response and efficiency that I get from the design. I used to enclosure fan. They were easy and I didn't have to do any math in the design process. Now software takes care of that for me. Natedog had very good advice on how to achieve loudness increases. More cone area or more power. Also more efficient design or rather a design around your speakers. Odds are your box was not designed for your speakers. Rather it is an off the shelf box.

Another amp you can look at is the JBL GTO14001. It puts out 1200 watts at 4 ohms or 1500 at 2 ohms. I bought my son 2 of them for his car. Got them from the Harman audio ebay store for 332 shipped (thats both amps together.3 kwatt) Harman Audio is the company that owns JBL Infinity and other companies. The ebay store is where they sell their factory reman equipment. full warranty as well.

Another that I use is Sundown Audio. My son has a SAE1000D, I have a SAZ1500D my brother has a SAZ 1000D, my friend has a SAZ3500D and so on. My son now uses the JBL's but never had issues with the 1000.

Like Nate said Crossfire is a good brand though I have not used them. My son's friend has Memphis and has gone though two amps and 3 subs. Not sure why but has put a bad taste in his mouth and made me hesitant to recommend.

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Old 04-17-2010, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Word Nate, those speakers sound pretty nice. Oh and the guy that installed my stuff had everything set up like that... bass boost n all. Thankful for the internet lol!

cubd, yea i don't like spending more than what it's worth. I'll see what stores got and research em. lol street cred should be based off if you real or not, it's not what you got but HOW ya get it, it's not what ya say but how ya spit it. Word

I know JBL is a good brand, i'll check those out too. That does sound like a good deal, and performance too.
i just want good sound, eventually i want surround sound put in... when the time comes.
still waitn for the rain to take pics of the box, i gotta open the trunk to snap the back with the ports.
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Old 04-17-2010, 01:21 PM
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Hehe, I never knew Image Dynamics subs had street cred. I've loved the sound and performance of the IDQ's since the mid-90's. They have always been cheaper than JL's equilvalent and sounded better with the IDMax (last review I read of them) beating out the Crystal CMP12 (oooolllllddd school sub) as Tom Nousaine's favorite sub. There are some subs out there that are cheaper than the IDMax's but if you look around hard enough and wait for it you can find the IDMax's in the $250-$300 range (per one) depending on the size you want. I used to sell Image Dynamics and Crossfire through my shop (Creative Sounds) but because of the economy had to get out of the product side. Now I just do high end installs. Those were my top sellers while I had them and would recommend them to anyone. The new Memphis amps, IMO, suck compared to their older 2000 models (the chrome amps) which not only looked good but were well built/designed. If you wanted to go Memphis I'd suggest those (I think they were the studio series).

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Old 04-17-2010, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedog51 View Post

Hehe, I never knew Image Dynamics subs had street cred. I've loved the sound and performance of the IDQ's since the mid-90's. They have always been cheaper than JL's equilvalent and sounded better with the IDMax (last review I read of them) beating out the Crystal CMP12 (oooolllllddd school sub) as Tom Nousaine's favorite sub. There are some subs out there that are cheaper than the IDMax's but if you look around hard enough and wait for it you can find the IDMax's in the $250-$300 range (per one) depending on the size you want. I used to sell Image Dynamics and Crossfire through my shop (Creative Sounds) but because of the economy had to get out of the product side. Now I just do high end installs. Those were my top sellers while I had them and would recommend them to anyone. The new Memphis amps, IMO, suck compared to their older 2000 models (the chrome amps) which not only looked good but were well built/designed. If you wanted to go Memphis I'd suggest those (I think they were the studio series).

Nate,

I remember those Crystal subs!! Of course I am 39, so a lot of those companies from the heyday of car audio when shops could make money, I remember!!

As for street cred, I merely mean that for 2 octaves of reproduction, there is no reason for anybody especially a non competitor to buy high dollar subs. Road noise alone is going to cancel subtle nuances of sonic bliss. A lot of people forget that. They go out and spend money on high dollar equipment when a lower cost item will perform as good or better. Unless there have been posted results of reasons that back up the higher cost item then fine. You worked with the ID subs. You know them. I understand your recommendation. I owned the IDQ v2 for a while. Before I got hooked on TC Sounds. I have run Sundown audio, Phoenix gold RSdC (currently in my son's car) Digital Designs etc... for subs. Also Dayton from Parts express. Great performance at very good prices.


The same goes for amps. Amps are a commodity part now. As long as an amp provides good clean sound with the power they claim and are reliable, no reason to spend big bucks for name brands. I own Tru Technology Billet Series, Zapco C2k, Cadence TXA, Sundown Audio, Diamond Audio among others. Those are what I have either on the shelf or running in my systems. I wouldn't spend the money on the high dollar stuff now that I know and "Get It" about the equipment. Basically buy the amp that meets your budget and does what you want it to do. Not by brand name. Cause really, no one cares about brand. Spending 1000 bucks on a 100X2 amp makes no sense when a 150 bucks will buy the same power that is clean and reliable. UNLESS brand loyalty etc. It's your money so to speak.

Just my $0.02.

Not trying to start an argument or debate.

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Old 04-18-2010, 11:10 AM
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You forgot Atomic subs I wasn't starting anything just didn't think ID was well known outside of the mobile electronics industry. A good "other" sub would be the new e5 series from Elemental Design. Cheap, effecient, and will still handled alot of power.

CDub sounds like you just bought this stuff so unless it just isn't working for your play style I'll stop listing components to buy.

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Old 04-18-2010, 11:12 AM
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Oh, Denno if you ever want to sell those Tru Tech amps get in touch with me. I had their first run of the T series (T2.100's) that I bought as dealer samples (and then started carrying the line) and I ended up selling them because I was hard up for money (as I sold the whole business). I really wish I hadn't because those were some of the coolest amps and nicest sounding.

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Old 04-18-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Natedog51 View Post

Oh, Denno if you ever want to sell those Tru Tech amps get in touch with me. I had their first run of the T series (T2.100's) that I bought as dealer samples (and then started carrying the line) and I ended up selling them because I was hard up for money (as I sold the whole business). I really wish I hadn't because those were some of the coolest amps and nicest sounding.

Nate,

I travel for my work. Where are you located. If I travel there or near, I could plan on meeting with you and showing you the amp. It's a Tru Billet 2110AD

Hooked up to my stereo to A/B test vs my Cadence TXA 3002 on my midbass drivers. Not driven around with not secured so no screw hole marring. Can provide pics. Will let you research the amp model and we can discuss. I bought it one time when i was up in Canada (when the dollar was stronger)

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"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
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Old 04-18-2010, 02:40 PM
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I live near Richmond, Va currently. If you really want to get rid of it PM me a price and I will seriously think about. I could use an amp for my truck to either run some subs or a set of comps. Nothing serious just want better than AC Delco sound.

I've got some stuff...but I need more stuff.
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