need advice on subs - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 04-25-2011, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
brian_97_4Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10


Hi,

I need advice on my bass setup. I have a 97 4Runner with full aftermarket system.

Alpine Head Unit
Alpine V-12 4 Channel 100x4 RMS
Infinity Kappa Front 6.5" & Rear 6x9

MTX 6500D [rated at 600W RMS (2ohm) @ 12v; bench tested 725W RMS (2 ohm) @ 14.4v]
2 MTX 12" subs (rated at 250W RMS each)
1 Sealed QLogic dual 12" box

Here is my issue:

The bass doesn't really sound that loud to me and when it is loud it doesn't sound very clean. I don't think the issue is my amp, I had it tested about 18 months ago and it was certified by MTX.

I am considering swapping out the MTX 12" subs for Alpine Type R DVC subs.
These subs can handle 350W RMS and are supposed to sound really great. Does anyone think there will a noticeable difference in loudness and quality? - This would be a $300 upgrade.

Thanks

Brian
brian_97_4Runner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 04-25-2011, 04:15 PM
 
anwaypasible's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: illinois
Posts: 391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
i have owned a lower line of mtx subs, and it didnt sound very good at all.
the output was really low, and when i turned it up the voice coil fried.
i've also heard four mid-range mtx subs (four 10 inch subs) and they didnt sound very good either.
there was lots of punch, but the output was generally 'struggling tight' and exaggerated.
i think they sounded like they were mumbling with fear, barely playing any details, and basically lots of bump with quiet (if any) actual detail.
all of the extra thump mixed in with the itsy bitsy details made me conclude the average response is muddy.

with that said, i can relate to the probability of the speaker being unpleasant.
hopefully you will take my story as advice, so you dont blow the speakers.

i have only listened to the alpine type R's a few times.
once or twice in the store, and once in a car.
as each year changes, its possible that the type R's change in quality.
i dont know what model you are looking at, but i dont know their speakers much anyways.

to be fully honest, i dont think the speakers sounded like they were worth much more than $45 per speaker.
but that isnt necessarily fair, because the amplifier they were connected to might have been junk.
i know when i heard the type R in a car, it was distorting.

i want to suggest some peerless subwoofers from parts express or madisound.
but
i havent heard those speakers ever.
the brand name is known for being audiophile (and known to be an improvement, at least, by other people)

places like best buy, they dont sell sound quality type speakers.
they are designed for spl with a pinch of sound quality.
some people are lucky enough to purchase a subwoofer that does 'mush' the details.
and 'mush' details is better than a subwoofer with no details at all.
but i wouldnt want to gamble my money.

i apologize that i cant give you a list of quality options of exact products.
but i do have one word of advice, dont listen to the manufacturers description.
they will tell you the speaker has details when the product doesnt.
its better to read people talking about the speakers, and if they have a list of unknown name brands.. they probably know what they are talking about (at least a major improvement)

you can also try browsing youtube and listen to subwoofers in the video.
the videos that dont have a distorting microphone can maybe help you find a speaker providing an example of its ability to play the details.
that means no 'late night tip' or 'bass i love you' or many of the techno/dance songs.
you need something that is fast moving and lots of changes clearly audible.
that is step one for hunting and listening.
the problem is, if you havent heard the extra detail and clarity.. then you dont know what you are listening for.


actually.. i can recommend you a speaker !!!
i had an MB quart rwe 302 that sounded better than any subwoofer i have ever owned.
i made the stupid mistake of asking for more output from one speaker instead of buying a second one and a new amp.
i had the dual 2 ohm version hooked up to a 600.1 kicker amplifier.
first i wired the two coils up in series = 4 ohms (300 watts)
the speaker wasnt loud enough for me, i just had two twelves and they were louder.
so
i tried to wire the two coils up in parrallel = 1 ohm (more than 600 watts)
the sub only got a little bit louder.. but i left it like that because the sub is 500 watts and i wanted to feed it more watts closer to its RMS rating.
well it lasted about 1 week and finally died when i was abusing it with a bass cd.

i have a 12w7 subwoofer that i have had for maybe 4 years?
with no money to purchase an amplifier, it has simply sat around waiting on me.
and if i ever sell that subwoofer.. i will probably be purchasing two more of the mb quart rwe 302 subs.
i had the sub in a bandpass box and there was details pouring out from behind the back seat.

the subs are $69.99 at woofersEtc.com with a suggested retail value of $299.99
and i swear, they are worth closer to the suggested retail price.
but, audiophile speakers have been being sold very extremely cheap for about a decade now.
hell.. i bought some midranges that go into a speaker set that costs $1,200
and i only paid about $30 for a pair of 'em shipped to the house.
part-express sells some midranges with the same name brand for about $60 each.
'peerless' HDS drivers is what i am talking about.
the ones i bought were 'peerless' nomex drivers.


if those mtx subs are really that bad.. get the MB quart rwe drivers.
i guarantee the improvement is enough to make you want to give me a $10 bill.
dont make the same mistake i did.. you can run two of them with 600 watts and it will be more than adequate.
the one i got was a display item that never received any power.
the amp was a kicker 600.1 (kx version i believe)
300 watts is enough for me today.. but at the time i wanted more pounding that only comes with two twelves (at the excursion i was working with)
i had two infinity reference 12's (the white cone with black dust cap version)
they were OBLITERATED by the soundquality that came from the mb quart sub.
and i assume my infinity subs sounded better than some bad mtx subwoofers.

i have seriously thought about selling my 12w7 so i have enough money to purchase two of those mb quarts and an amp.
but
i really want to hear what the 12w7 can do.
i've only heard it once in a car (it was before i got mine) and it was running on about 175 watts (the amp was 300 or 500 .. i dont remember , but the radio was turned down)
far far far away from the 750-900 RMS needed to make it sing.

two of those mb quarts.. wire each sub's dual voice coil in series = 4 ohms each
then wire the subs in parrallel = 2 ohms / 600 watts from your amp.
i remember those subs would play rock/rap/techno
some speakers are only good at one type of music, like the four 10's i mentioned above.
they were pretty cute for rock music, and decent for techno music.
but those songs had thump, which is what the subs where good at.
aggressive bass guitar from death metal music isnt the same as a bass guitar from a band like no doubt (reggae?)

i think the mb quart subs are an upgrade big enough to make most people think about upgrading their speakers in the doors.
anwaypasible is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 04-25-2011, 08:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cham-Bana Illinois
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 56
My guess would be that it's an enclosure issue. People put way to much time into name brands. It's just subs. In a car. Pretty much all you are doing is pressurizing your cabin. That said, I would start with playing around with your current enclosure's orientation in the vehicle. Try facing it another direction (seriously. it can change your response). After that, try adding polyester fiberfill to your enclosure chamber to "fool" the woofers into thinking the box is larger for a bit lower fs. After that and you are still unhappy, I would do 1 of 2 things. Either research a better enclosure design for your current flavor of subs or look for a different sub that plays better in your current enclosure. The first most likely being the cheapest but not necessarily the easiest.

Remember, unless the new woofers are ridiculously more efficient in your current enclosure, the woofer change is going to be what, 3db more efficient (louder) than your current woofs on the same power/settings? That is not to say that a better woofer design is not going to yield you better results over all. The last time I used MTX subs in a vehicle was a 3 10 inch loaded sealed enclosure that had original blue thunder subs. We loved it. It got passed from me to my wife to my son and he sold it to a buddy who sold it to another. It is currently still annoying people and it was bought in 95.

If I was in your shoes and had to get new subs, I would look at the Dayton 12" HO reference series sub from Parts Express. It loves small ported enclosures (Actually I like the all 3 sizes of the HO's). I would determine if your current enclosure could be modified easily to ported AND still offer the correct volume needs.

The days of buying over 150 dollar subs are over for me unless I am running multi kilowatt amps. Then I am going to need a motoer that will handle that power. With what you have for power, there is no need to be buying high dollar "car audio" branded subs unless you want them to match something in your system, you get a good deal on them or are just ultra brand loyal. Cause again, odds are you won't hear much of a difference when running the subs in a correctly designed and built enclosure.

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
cubdenno is offline  
post #4 of 14 Old 04-25-2011, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
brian_97_4Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks cubdenno,
I am not sure if it is an enclosure issue. I am sure the box doesn't leak and it is rated for these subs.

Actually the subs get pretty loud, they can shake the whole car when playing hip-hop if I turn up the EQ and that actually sounds fine but not very clean.

I would like to get a clean deep rumble and am hoping switching speakers would help. Perhaps sell the other ones on CL.


RE: Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm.
I had never heard of this sub but it has a lot of great reviews. Does it need to be ported, will it still sound good sealed? My understanding is that while ported makes the bass louder, it doesn't sound as tight.



I agree that good consumer car audio is hard to find in stores these days. Places like Best Buy try to stock the shelves with low-mid level gear.
brian_97_4Runner is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 04-25-2011, 09:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cham-Bana Illinois
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian_97_4Runner View Post

Thanks cubdenno,
I am not sure if it is an enclosure issue. I am sure the box doesn't leak and it is rated for these subs. This doesn't matter or at least not in the context i was driving at. I am glad the box is not leaking and properly sized. It is still a sealed enclosure and rolls off at sub/enclosure fs at 12 db per octave. normally this couples very nicely with cabin gain on a vehicle (figure a 12db increas starting around 50 hertz or so)

Actually the subs get pretty loud, they can shake the whole car when playing hip-hop if I turn up the EQ and that actually sounds fine but not very clean. That lack of "clean" is most likely a function of distortion and or clipping the amp. When you boost frequencies you are asking your amp to work that much harder. So it hits it's peak power faster and then clips. It's always better to cut than to boost.
I would like to get a clean deep rumble and am hoping switching speakers would help. Perhaps sell the other ones on CL.


RE: Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm.
I had never heard of this sub but it has a lot of great reviews. Does it need to be ported, will it still sound good sealed? My understanding is that while ported makes the bass louder, it doesn't sound as tight. Not true. Porting a sub enclosure actually can increase it's performance greatly. Making it play cleaner and deeper with less power. Now if you design the enclosure to cause a huge hump in output at a specific frequency due to the porting/enclosure size, it can rapidly over come your midbass drivers and or the subs output in the midbass frequencies that cause one to think that the sub is muddy. it's the midbass frequencies that give the illusion of "tight bass". And as it's easy to overpower your midbass with a sub plus the added heart ache of natural midbass suckouts (cancellation) in most vehicles, it makes it even worse.

I agree that good consumer car audio is hard to find in stores these days. Places like Best Buy try to stock the shelves with low-mid level gear.

Brian, to answer your questions I will do them in order... or at least try. Above in Red

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
cubdenno is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 04-25-2011, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
brian_97_4Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ok,

thanks for post. You got me thinking about my situation.

RE: porting, I wouldn't know where to begin and don't want to have a box built for $. I generally like the box I have I just want the bass to sound good. It could be that the subs I have now just have bad mid-level ..

I think I should have asked - is the Dayton you mentioned going to perform differently somehow because it is a home theater sub? I went to parts-express and while there are many good reviews they are all for home setups.

With regards to mid-bass, I currently have my 4-channel alpine's Hi-Pass set to 80 HZ and most of the real low end HZ don't make it through. Setting it this way is usually recommended for components and the door speakers sound great! I can turn it up until it is painful but still crystal clear, there just isn't a lot of low end bass with the subs off.
brian_97_4Runner is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 04-26-2011, 05:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cham-Bana Illinois
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Re Dayton: disregard home theater/audio vs car audio. a speaker is a speaker. T/S specs on all speakers can be different. That just necessitates paying attention to the enclosure design.

re crossovers: Your settings are fine. I usually run 20-80 for subs, 80-320 for (dedicated)midbass, 320-3000for midrange (again dedicated) 3000 and up for tweets. For a midbass/midrange 80-3k. Keep in minf this is a very loose recomendation on crossover points. I personally run proaudio 8" drivers from B&C. They play 80-1.2k 24db/oct on the highpass and 12db/oct on the lowpass. My tweets are crossed at 2k 24db/oct. They are the B&G Neo3 planars. Just posting this to show how I do mine. as they are underlapped.

As for your enclosure. I am honestly not knocking it. Sealed enclosures are popular because they are easy to make, have a lot of wiggle room for volume and mate very well with fs roll off to cabin gain. plus the upper bass is usually not drowned out by the low bass so people get that midbass reinforcement for their interior speakers. by the way, how big is your enclosure? Is it a common sealed chamber or divided into 2 sealed chamber? Is it possible to give the outside dimensions?

Also, please understand that replacing your subs with another may or may not give you better results.It's easy to get caught up in psychoacoustics and the whole adding a new component so I will unconsciencely feel it sounds so much better to justify the spending of my money trap!

if you are staying with the sealed enclosure, do not get the Dayton HO. The results will be underwhelming.

If you can get me the enclosure specs, I can try to find you an alternative to your current subs (what is their MTX model number?). I do project engineering at Steel mills so will be at one today. it will be tonite before I can answer so please be patient with me!

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
cubdenno is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 04-26-2011, 10:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
JMII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Are the subs wired correctly to the amp? Nothing is out phase? Wondering what ohm loads are going on here because as described the system should sound pretty decent. Also you've got a low pass crossover on the subs right?

If you want louder a ported box would be the way to go with speakers optimized for that kind of enclosure. I would double check the size of box and subs specs to make sure they are happy in your current enclosure. Even if they are recommended you might be better off with a smaller or larger box.

I'm currently running Polk MM in a seal box and they are performing great even though they are slightly under powered. I've had good luck with Kicker and MTX subs in the past, but I'm more of SQ then SPL guy.

If you want a deep rumble throw an Epicenter into the mix.

My equipment list is here. Playstation Network ID = jmii ...that's JM roman numeral 2
JMII is offline  
post #9 of 14 Old 04-26-2011, 01:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cham-Bana Illinois
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMII View Post

Are the subs wired correctly to the amp? Nothing is out phase? Wondering what ohm loads are going on here because as described the system should sound pretty decent. Also you've got a low pass crossover on the subs right?

If you want louder a ported box would be the way to go with speakers optimized for that kind of enclosure. I would double check the size of box and subs specs to make sure they are happy in your current enclosure. Even if they are recommended you might be better off with a smaller or larger box.

I'm currently running Polk MM in a seal box and they are performing great even though they are slightly under powered. I've had good luck with Kicker and MTX subs in the past, but I'm more of SQ then SPL guy.

If you want a deep rumble throw an Epicenter into the mix.

LOL!!! I have one of those sitting on my shelf!! Good point with the phase question. I assumed that had been checked. Though in his case when regarding sealed unless it's drastic, size changes rarely make a huge difference in output or low end extention.

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
cubdenno is offline  
post #10 of 14 Old 04-27-2011, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
brian_97_4Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
@cubdenno - the enclosure is 1.25 square foot per sub chamber.

Also, please understand that replacing your subs with another may or may not give you better results.It's easy to get caught up in psychoacoustics and the whole adding a new component so I will unconsciencely feel it sounds so much better to justify the spending of my money trap!

I agree with this possibility. When I drink a Sam Adams I always pull a pint glass from the freezer because it just seems better.

I don't have the model number on the subs but I think they are along the middle of the line ~ 6500 subs - they are a few years old so this would be when their models were: 4500/6500/8500 OR 4000/6000/8000.


@JMII - Actually the system does sound pretty decent but on some music and not others.. I just want it to be a bit cleaner at higher db without having to crank up the EQ. I was hoping when I started this that someone would post along the lines of "the Type-R (or other sub) will definitely sound significantly cleaner & 20% louder" this was probably not realistic.

The subs are in phase .. meaning the (+) and (-) are both wired to the (+) and (-) and not cross wired. They are 4 ohm subs in parralell at 2 ohm load.

I don't know what an Epicenter is but I assume it is a good sub.


Thanks for all the help so far guys.

I should mention that these posts are a lot nicer than the ones over at DIYAudio. I have witnessed some very dumb troll battles on just the first day I visited. Example: on one thread someone and a moderator were flaming back and forth about what temperature ice melts at - I mean come on!
brian_97_4Runner is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 04-27-2011, 07:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cham-Bana Illinois
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 56
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-404

2 of these subs in your box with a bag of fiberfill from Walmart or a hobby shop will be just about perfect. They have a very decent 18mm of 1 way Xmax. Well designed low distortion motors and cooling. The efficiency is pretty good as well and have a single 4 ohm coil so two paralleled will give you a 2 ohm load. great warranty as well. Honestly if you HAVE the itch to upgrade, unless you find a super deal (and they are out there) these are the sub's I would buy in this price range for your application.




http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=293-638

Now if you want overkill, these will do very nicely. I run the 15" version "old style" of this woof. Same motor. Small sealed box. Can handle excessive power and has ridonkulous output. Hee hee. These would most likely require an amp upgrade, electrical system upgrade, and more in the front stage to keep up etc... But hey, I can spend your money all day!


http://www.audiocontrol.com/14165/pr...Processor.html

this is the epicenter. I have had it since the early 90's . I have blown more subs using it (young and stupid) and finally shelved it. But it does work.

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
cubdenno is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 04-27-2011, 08:56 AM
Member
 
Daledkwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Campbell, CA.
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Cubdenno is spot on with those recommendations. I would also add that it would be wise to go back through your settings on both amps as well. Check the crossover points and gains. Sometimes you can gain a little more on the lower fs on the front side. There's going to be a fine line here sacrificing possibly sound quality for gain and vise versa. Your ears just might have gotten use to what you have (possible). Ive been there as well as seen many go down that road too. Doesn't hurt to tweak and listen.

The ac epicenter might be an overkill device for what you want (not for me to judge). If you don't really know what it does... It's going to be dramatic! The system will have to be adjusted in order to fit your ears if you choose to add.

I would suggest following cubdenno's advice and then tweak from there. That will be a good starting point, till your ears get use to that in about another year. Happens all the time, to me anyway...
Daledkwb is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 04-27-2011, 10:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
JMII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian_97_4Runner View Post

Actually the system does sound pretty decent but on some music and not others.. I just want it to be a bit cleaner at higher db without having to crank up the EQ. I was hoping when I started this that someone would post along the lines of "the Type-R (or other sub) will definitely sound significantly cleaner & 20% louder" this was probably not realistic.

Sounds like you need more amplifier power then, unless the subs are already at their xmax. It would help to know more about which model subs you've got, then you'll know if new subs would help. You need subs that are more sensitive or have a larger xmax (or both!) to make things louder. As for cleaner that is a tough call. Best bet would be putting some different sub specs in a program like WinISD and plotting their output in your current box. Note: this does not take that cabin gain of the vehicle into consideration, and its not perfect since its just a simulator, but it makes it easy to compare the output of various subs quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

http://www.audiocontrol.com/14165/pr...Processor.html

this is the epicenter. I have had it since the early 90's . I have blown more subs using it (young and stupid) and finally shelved it. But it does work.

In ported boxes I don't recommend Epicenters cause it will KILL your subs, but if you want serious low end it is the ticket. Some people don't like the "fake" bass it produces but with the right settings and not going crazy with the dash mounted knob you can generate some serious rumbling from your current setup. I had one for years then went without one for a long, long time... (too long) so I finally put one back in my system and - MY GOD did I miss this thing it literally makes your subs sound like they are one size larger (10" = 12"). If your currently bumping up an EQ to get lower or louder bass then an Epicenter can help provided you have the amplifier power and the subs can take the abuse it can be a toy or a tool depending on how its used. Its not for everyone... but I get a kick out using one to generate insane bass levels.

My equipment list is here. Playstation Network ID = jmii ...that's JM roman numeral 2
JMII is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 04-27-2011, 12:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
Scottyb09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Great White North!
Posts: 507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I am not as versed in car audio as home audio, but I did install an all Alpine system last spring in my '97 Camry (new head unit connected to an 8GB thumb drive, 6 1/2" component Type R speakers in the front, nothing in the rear, two amps, 12" Type R DVC sub, sealed enclosure, Dynamat, and all calibrated with Audyssey). I cannot tell you how this sub compares to others, but it POUNDS in my car. Note that I don't have my system calibrated with overwhelming bass - Audyssey has blended everything PERFECTLY to my ears. It hits hard and deep just like it should
Scottyb09 is offline  
Reply Car Audio, Video, and Nav

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off