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post #1 of 20 Old 09-11-2011, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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So here's the deal. I have a Sundown 1200D, and Sundown 125.2 powering my setup. I will breeze over the 125.2 which will be hooked up to 2 sets of Polk db6501 components (2 ohm load) on each channel giving me a net of 100 watts to each speaker.

I am building a CUSTOM box for a12" TC Sounds LMS-R sub. This sub can handle 1k watts continuous and 4k peak. I can wire this sub to be a 1 ohm load which is a load my 1200D can handle (giving out 1200 watts).

I am trying to decide if I should port the box I am planning on building needs a port or not, and if so how long, size, ect I need it to be. I believe I correctly modeled the Treo TE sub I have now (in a ported probox) in the SPL image in WinISD. Please note the Green line is the ported 12, the yellow is a sealed 12" and the orange is the Treo 10".

I would greatly appreciate any help with this.

The internal height of all dimensions is 6 inches and there will be a cover (with holes cutout for the amps) that will go over the amp section so it looks all nice and neat. I also will be creating a spacer of some sort for the sub since the mounting depth the sub needs (7.15) is more than the current height of the box (6 3/4).

So as it stands the box is right around 2 cubic feet taking into account bracing which will be needed.

So if I port, what size, length, etc.

I really appreciate any help I can get on this.




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post #2 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 12:20 AM
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First, you have different units of measure in your picture. As long as YOU know it is inches and not centimeters all is well. If not, there are going to be some problems.

I am assuming you are using 3/4" material. Either MDF or good plywood will be fine. I would double up the baffle that the sub is mounted on. those subs are beasts and heavy.

Do NOT use screws to mount the woofer. Use machine scews and either hurricane nuts or T nuts or whatever your fastener system of choice is other than wood screws.

As for porting, I am a huge fan of a well designed ported enclosure.
What are your listening preferences?
What are your goals sound-wise?

Be honest in the above two questions. Because if you listen to predominately rap and want to maximise output, I would suggest different boxes than if you listen to classical and jazz.

Going sealed is the easiest. A simple sealed box will have a roll off in the low frequencies that closely match most cars cabin gain. You end up with a nice unbloated low end. Plus you can eq in a bit of bump if you have an EQ. Again easy and smallest enclosure.

Ported is a bit more difficult. You should take into account proper port sizing as you do not want to have port noise (chuffing) or distortion or compression.

Most music has very little content below 30 hertz. To maximize the subs capability, I suggest a 25-30 hertz tuning to reduce the woofer excursion while getting the most output.This should yield you a relitively flat response with great low end output and cone control. Will sound great with all music types. Plus should yield you some impressive numbers.

If you are wanting a shock and awe design, tune 35-40 hertz. You will still have audible output into the upper 20's and low 30's in car with a huge peak in the upper 40-50 hertz area. Not the most musical but will pressurize the vehicle on rap.

Tuning higher will yield a SPL box that will be great for numbers but real sucky on music.

In either design, make use of the SSF on the amp. You want to set it for just a bit under your tuning frequency to help protect the woofer as it unloads.

Even with a sealed enclosure I like to use them in car.

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post #3 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post
I am assuming you are using 3/4" material. Either MDF or good plywood will be fine. I would double up the baffle that the sub is mounted on. those subs are beasts and heavy.
Thanks for that suggestion. I was going to use screws as this is my first box lol. And yes the plan is to use 3/4 pressure treated wood (since this is a trunk and there could be moisture that gets into it at some point.

But I was planning on running pieces of 2x4 under each mounting screw (not pictured) and also screw from the bottom of the box so it was decently braced.

Would that work ok or not, and would I still need to double up the baffle?

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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post
As for porting, I am a huge fan of a well designed ported enclosure.
What are your listening preferences?
What are your goals sound-wise?

Be honest in the above two questions. Because if you listen to predominately rap and want to maximise output, I would suggest different boxes than if you listen to classical and jazz.

Going sealed is the easiest. A simple sealed box will have a roll off in the low frequencies that closely match most cars cabin gain. You end up with a nice unbloated low end. Plus you can eq in a bit of bump if you have an EQ. Again easy and smallest enclosure.

Ported is a bit more difficult. You should take into account proper port sizing as you do not want to have port noise (chuffing) or distortion or compression.

Most music has very little content below 30 hertz. To maximize the subs capability, I suggest a 25-30 hertz tuning to reduce the woofer excursion while getting the most output.This should yield you a relitively flat response with great low end output and cone control. Will sound great with all music types. Plus should yield you some impressive numbers.

If you are wanting a shock and awe design, tune 35-40 hertz. You will still have audible output into the upper 20's and low 30's in car with a huge peak in the upper 40-50 hertz area. Not the most musical but will pressurize the vehicle on rap.
Well the goal was decent output to 20 hz which I talked to a friend about this and a 1x6x18 port would get me around 108db at 20hz. As the sub is rated to 15, I would be applying the subsonic filter at 20hz to keep the sub from bottoming out.

I listen to a bunch of stuff from rap, to techno, to acoustic and rock so while I do want some nice thump I dont want massive humps in the SPL as this should blow away my Treo anyway simply due to going from 500 watts to 1000 in a bigger box.

So this isnt an SPL box so to speak as much as its simply an upgrade box. I also dont have the best EQ in my car, I can mostly set bass, mid and treble on a scale, drop the sub levels, and use either a highpass on the sub RCA of 120, 100, 80.

I plan on using 100.

I will mess around and see what happens if I make tune the ported box for 30 hz. But mostly I wanted to go ported so I kept a somewhat equal SPL across the spectrum and didnt have it roll off so much at the low end.

I looked and at with the ported box in the pic above I dont reach max excursion until about 15 hz (the limit of the sub anyway and a pointless number to try and hit) since this sub has a 2" peak to peak excursion.

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post #4 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Graphed a couple different options out. Basic difference is that each box is tuned 5 hz from the other. So there is a 20 hz, 25 hz, 30 hz tuned box. The Green is the 20hz box, the sky blue the 30, and the purple the 25. Not sure if I really need/want the extra db's between the boxes...

Please note the graph is from 20hz to 100hz (I cut off the bottom showing the hz's this morning in my haste apparently)

The subsonic filter will be applied at 20hz no doubt at all.

any thoughts on port noise differences between these 3 options?



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post #5 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 07:56 AM
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If this is WinISD pro Alpha, you should be able model the port velocity.

Model it under power

Just change the signal from 1 watt to say 900 to account for impedance rise.

Play with the port area sizings (example:if round try 4"ID,5"ID and 6"ID)

Try to stay around 20m/s and under 30m/s port velocity.
It's a game of give and take.

remember that you have to account for the volume of the port in the enclosure total volume. (for a fixed enclosure volume, if you increase OD and length your box volume decreases) can be a real PIA.

Am guessing the purple is the 25 hertz enclosure. It looks like the best compromise. In car, it should be quite loud and accurate. The 30 hertz tuning would be very loud in the lows.

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post #6 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

If this is WinISD pro Alpha, you should be able model the port velocity.

Model it under power

Just change the signal from 1 watt to say 900 to account for impedance rise.

That is indeed the version I am working with. I have the signal at 1k watts which is the max continuous RMS for the sub (4k peak). The amp I have (Sundown 1200D) gives off 1200 watts @ 1 ohm. As such I have the signal at 1k and the omh load at 1. Let me know if those need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Play with the port area sizings (example:if round try 4"ID,5"ID and 6"ID)

Try to stay around 20m/s and under 30m/s port velocity. It's a game of give and take.

Yeah I plan to play with those. I will try to keep the port velocity in that area (I am new to this so what numbers to be in between isnt something I know). I dont need this box ASAP as I dont have the sub for it yet, but I want to get it spec'd out so I can build it to get my amps and everything mounted.

I will keep my current box in this setup until I get the new sub.

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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

remember that you have to account for the volume of the port in the enclosure total volume. (for a fixed enclosure volume, if you increase OD and length your box volume decreases) can be a real PIA.

Yeah, I technically already did that since the box size is bigger than 2 cubic feet (but not by much). Honestly in playing with the box size the SPL doesnt change that drastic so if the graph and my "real world" results are not 100 aligned its not the end of the world.

That and I actually do to some extent have a fixed enclosure volume. I might be able to spread the box so that it cuts out the section the crossovers and distrubution blocks are mounted as I might have enough space vertically to mount those around the sides of the amp section, but until I mock it up I wont know the tolerances I have to play with setup like that.


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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Am guessing the purple is the 25 hertz enclosure. It looks like the best compromise. In car, it should be quite loud and accurate. The 30 hertz tuning would be very loud in the lows.

You are correct, purple is 25 hz, I am thinking that since WinISD cannot account for cabin gain I might be fine w/ 25 hz as I should/might get another couple db's in the 20 hz region

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post #7 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 10:38 AM
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The reason I bring up port velocity is that with these high excursion woofers, you move more air since you can give it more power. Since you have a 1200 watt amp which puts out ~1500 watts at 1 ohm if I recall the test Jacob did (BTW, nice amp! I run the SAZ1500D on my TC Sounds TC3000 15").

Odds are you are not going to run that thing wide open power wise all the time. So modeling it at 2/3's power for maximum port velocities is fine. I like the 25 hertz enclosure as well. The gentle roll off will definitely be enhanced by the cabin gain. It may still overwhelm but that vcan be addressed by a little eq work. Give the cone excursion screen a look under power to make sure you don't go over xmax.

the nice thing about the LMS coil is it is linear through much of its stroke. Cuts out the distortion.

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post #8 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

The reason I bring up port velocity is that with these high excursion woofers, you move more air since you can give it more power.

Odds are you are not going to run that thing wide open power wise all the time. So modeling it at 2/3's power for maximum port velocities is fine. I like the 25 hertz enclosure as well. The gentle roll off will definitely be enhanced by the cabin gain. It may still overwhelm but that vcan be addressed by a little eq work. Give the cone excursion screen a look under power to make sure you don't go over xmax.

the nice thing about the LMS coil is it is linear through much of its stroke. Cuts out the distortion.

Cool, good to know and yes I do like the TC sounds model so far. It just looks friggin awesome compared to my Treo (which is still good given its pricepoint).

I am going to try and remodel the Treo as something just never looked right on that graph. I have the port measurements from the box so that should help a bit with figuring out what the box is tuned to.

Regarding the 1200D I am not sure if I will run this with the gain all the way up since my fronts (Polk db6501's) are being driven by a Sundown 125.2 so too much bass will kill them.

I also shortly may reconnect my rears since the 125.2 does 200 watts per channel @ 2 ohm and each set of my speakers is 4 ohm. That would give me the max RMS for each set of speakers. And EQ for the back could match the front since they are mostly just filler anyway....

I dont have lots in the way of EQ in the headunit (right now). I can set the bass, treble and mid levels from -7 to +7, a sub crossover of 120, 100, or 80 hz and then the bass level from -15 to +15

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Since you have a 1200 watt amp which puts out ~1500 watts at 1 ohm if I recall the test Jacob did (BTW, nice amp! I run the SAZ1500D on my TC Sounds TC3000 15").

Yeah, I really like it (though it does get a bit hot). Wondering if I should build in some fans to the mix or not.

Its rated to do 1200 watts at 1 ohm, but as Jacob is the owner of the company, I am sure his numbers are more true to form, and its never bad to rate it on the conservative side either.

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post #9 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Just talked to the guys that I bought the box from. Its tuned to 40hz hence why my graph looks so jacked up. Hopefully the new numbers will make things better tonight lol....

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post #10 of 20 Old 09-12-2011, 08:31 PM
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is it a slot ported enclosure? Since it is tuned so high, if it is a slot tune, get a couple of 2X4's or wood that will fit in the slot. Reducing the total area through the length of the port will lower the tuning frequency. allowing you to get a better feel for what a lower tuning will do for your existing woofer. It may end up changing your mind on swapping out subs.

Seriously though in a car or anywhere really, the enclosure is the main contributor to the sound. good enclosure makes the best sound.

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post #11 of 20 Old 09-13-2011, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

is it a slot ported enclosure? Since it is tuned so high, if it is a slot tune, get a couple of 2X4's or wood that will fit in the slot. Reducing the total area through the length of the port will lower the tuning frequency. allowing you to get a better feel for what a lower tuning will do for your existing woofer. It may end up changing your mind on swapping out subs.

Seriously though in a car or anywhere really, the enclosure is the main contributor to the sound. good enclosure makes the best sound.

It is not slot ported. Its a 3.5x3.5x11 port.

Its not just the box thats the problem, its that the sub I have now can only handle 500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms whereas the TC Sounds sub can handle 1k @ 1 ohm so I will get more sound out of it and actually be using the 1200D amp how it was meant to be used.

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post #12 of 20 Old 09-13-2011, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

It is not slot ported. Its a 3.5x3.5x11 port.

Its not just the box thats the problem, its that the sub I have now can only handle 500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms whereas the TC Sounds sub can handle 1k @ 1 ohm so I will get more sound out of it and actually be using the 1200D amp how it was meant to be used.

So it is a square port that is 11 inches deep?

Remember that all other things being equal, going from 500 to 1000 watts is a 3db increase. Doubling power gets you 3 db.

For whatever reason, WinISD does not work on my work laptop. I am currently in South Carolina doing a trial at a customer site so do not have access to Winisd.

gOING TO SEE IF i CAN MODEL ONLINE.

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post #13 of 20 Old 09-13-2011, 10:45 PM
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Forgot I had unibox.

1.75 cubic feet net. With your 2 cubic ft internal enclosure, with the Aero ports and subwoofer it should be right about perfect. any extra space lowers tuning slightly. Feel free to double check my math. It's late and I have been in the mill all day.

use a 20 hertz SSF

Tuning is 30 hertz. This is going to seriously growl.

Use Precision ports aero ports.

There will be 2 4" ID ports 42" long with the SSF this will avoid excessive port noise.
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post #14 of 20 Old 09-14-2011, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible to do a slotted port instead? 42" of length means I have to L each port twice and I also am not sure if the PVC pipe would rattle around inside the box given the length it would have to travel.

I was hoping we could either create a port 1-1" x 12" xX to go an inch under the sub, or port the entire length of the box (updated model included) with something like a 1-2" x 28 x X slotted port



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post #15 of 20 Old 09-14-2011, 08:35 AM
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Here is the issue. A single port, slot or round of the correct area is going to be ~40".

To get a specific tuning the volume of the box can't change for a specific port areaXlength. change any one of the three (net internal box volume, port area or length) and your tuning changes. Add in the fact that you have to account for displacement of the woofer and the port and you start to see how designing these things can be a pain.

Doing a slot port (which is what all my boxes use from the bandpass to the other bass reflex styles) is fine butthe material takes up a lot of volume.

The reason I went with round and specifically Precision ports is because it is thin plastic. These take up even less volume then PVC pipe due to thinner wall thickness.

As for rattling and elbows, bending is not a issue with the elbows. As for securing, I would us a piece of either 3/8's or 1/2" as a brace that runs top to bottom or whatever is perpendicular to your port orientation and mount them through that. Then that would ends up as a brace and holds your ports securely. DOUBLE DUTY!!!!

I see now by actually paying attention to your design above that this all going to be a single assembly. Amp rack sub enclosure.

Sub up and ports firing back?

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post #16 of 20 Old 09-14-2011, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

The reason I went with round and specifically Precision ports is because it is thin plastic. These take up even less volume then PVC pipe due to thinner wall thickness.

As for rattling and elbows, bending is not a issue with the elbows. As for securing, I would us a piece of either 3/8's or 1/2" as a brace that runs top to bottom or whatever is perpendicular to your port orientation and mount them through that. Then that would ends up as a brace and holds your ports securely. DOUBLE DUTY!!!!

That makes sense. So I would have a couple boards with holes drilled through them that went vertically top to bottom in the box. Just requires a bit more work/equipment I would have to aquire.



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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

I see now by actually paying attention to your design above that this all going to be a single assembly. Amp rack sub enclosure.

Sub up and ports firing back?

I was planning on having the sub firing up as well as the ports (centered somewhat below the sub.

The lenght of this is just about the full length of my trunk (with enough space to get it into the trunk of course .

I plan on doing a mock up using cardboard or something similar before I build it to ensure I will get it through the trunk opening lol.

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post #17 of 20 Old 09-14-2011, 03:16 PM
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Give a look to see if you have enough room to fire the port/s back. In most applications, I have seen this work best. Sent you a PM.

Definitely make sure that it will fit in through the opening. I know a friend of my son's who forgot that key bit of advice.

It equalled total redesign of enclosure. LOL

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post #18 of 20 Old 12-12-2011, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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This build is almost back on track. I have a newer design for the box that is hopefully going to work out better.

Its a box with Outer Box Dimensions of 13W x 14H x 23L, which works out to inner dimensions of 11 ½ W x 12 ½ H x 21 ½ L, which equal 1.78 cubic feet. The box will go lenght wise down the passenger side of the trunk, with a 12" sub on either end.

Right now I have it setup to use a TC Sounds LMS-R 12" sub along with a TC Sounds VMP Passive 12" but that might change shortly depending on how this specs out. I am looking at tuning the box between 30 - 35 hz and giving the sub ~1k worth of wattage.

I also am either going to mount the amps on the side of the box side by side, or on top (which would require a bit of tweaking to the width of the box by about 2") depending on if I end up going with a passive radiator or a ported box.

If I dont use a passive sub I also might tweak the box so the back is triangular conforming it to the back of the seat and then shortening it a bit as well. If I do this I will try to shoot the port out the side facing the driver.

 

sub box revisited 2.doc 80k . file

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post #19 of 20 Old 12-12-2011, 03:51 PM
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Beauty of the PR is if your initial tune is lacking, add/subtract weight to change the tune. Then you get the end result you want.

Glad its coming along.

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post #20 of 20 Old 12-12-2011, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Beauty of the PR is if your initial tune is lacking, add/subtract weight to change the tune. Then you get the end result you want.

Glad its coming along.

That is very very true, but its all about the cost of the PR lol......

Still going to see how a vent would work in this box but if its going to chuff all to hell then yeah, the cost would be worth it....

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