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post #1 of 27 Old 01-16-2012, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a 1978 Mini Cooper and am in the process of adding a radio to it as it did not come with one from the factory. The interior of the car was packaged very efficiently which means there really is not much unused space to add a speakker. I was able to find a location for two 6x9s in the back under the rear seat, and snuck a head unit under the dash using a universal mounting kit, but at this point I have no front speakers, and do not have much room to add anything.

What are the smallest speakers out there that I can consider? I took a look at some 3 1/2" units but they seem a bit too large to fit. I could fit something more in the 1-2" range but all I see in that range are tweeters, not full range speakrs.

Does anyone make a 2" or under full range driver? I understand that it will have very poor low freq output, but by full range I mean 200 Hz and up.

How bad do you think it would sound if I only mounted a 1" tweeter in the front? Who's tweeters work to the lowest frequencies?

Thanks,
-Joe
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-16-2012, 07:44 PM
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i think it would sound terrible with just a tweeter up front..there has to be some place to put even a small pair of 5x7's...even in a homemade box towards front of seat.
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post #3 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
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No way in hell I could get a 5x7 up front and still be able to get in and out of the car. I am looking into fabricating something to allow a 3.5 or maybe a 4, but it will be intrusive...
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 08:23 AM
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What about cutting into the front doors? Are you willing to cut a 4" hole into your door and run some wiring there? Might be able to retrofit some kick panel pods someplace upfront.

There is no way to get full range out of a small speaker, the minimum speaker I would consider upfront would be a 5 1/4". Even a 4" driver isn't going to produce enough mid-bass to be worth the effort, might as well throw a boom-box on the front seat.

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post #5 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 11:22 AM
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Remember, u can always increase the driving surface by using TWO (or more) smaller speakers (per channel).

Anywhoo, is a matter of how much ur willing to modify the car.

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #6 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I appreciate the ideas. A classic mini door is only a couple of inches thick, so there is no room at all when the window is down on models that have roll up windows like mine. There are people that build pods that stick out from the door into the cabin, but they interfere with your feet once you close the door. I am not against modifying the car, it is just very cramped quarters... I could probably sneak a 3 1/2 under the dash on the corners, without interfering with my seating position, but they would make entry and egress more difficult.

In the end, I know that small drivers will result in small sound, but there just is not much space available. Understanding that, what are the best choices for small drivers? Right now i have no front speakers so anything would be better....
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post #7 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 02:03 PM
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Look for raw drivers at parts-express.com
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post #8 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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DeLaw,

Thanks for the link. I saw these on the website you advised. Has anyone tried them, I am pretty sure I can sit pair of them on the flat part of the dash up front.

-Joe
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-17-2012, 10:52 PM
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You are limiting yourself to car audio branded speakers. For the small space I would look at pro audio drivers like Faitel. They have a 4 inch driver. Shallow mounting depth good to 200 hertz. Very efficient. Couple them to a small format tweeter mounted on the windshield pillars.

Small cars are totally about compromise. More so than other automobiles. Determine what you are willing to live with. I would have probably just stuck with the 6X9's in the back and amplified them. Called it a day. You know it's going to be a challenge to get anything up front that will go low enough.

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro-4fe30-1.htm

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro-3fe20-1.htm

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post #10 of 27 Old 01-18-2012, 10:20 PM
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http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-204
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post #11 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I found enough space for a 4" speaker up front. I know that really isn't enough driver, but it is all i can fit. I am leaning towards a pioneer tsd1002. Any thoughts?

thanks,
joe
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post #12 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 08:26 AM
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If you can fit them and have some means of applying a high pass filter on them, they should work fine. If you are runnin low power (20 watts or so per speaker) you can probably get away with a 100 hertz crossover point. Especially if you have access to a LR4 slope. That 24db/oct slope should help keep the speaker from over driving. Running higher power will cause a rethink. I would cross higher 200-300 minimum and possibly fab up a sort of sealed enclosure to utilize the air compliance as a sort of cone control filter. And of course a decent slope high pass.

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post #13 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 08:34 AM
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Try contacting Icon/Critical Mass. They have a lot of experience with specialty car audio. Check out their website at www.icontv.com. You can also contact them at 718-752-9764.
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post #14 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I am running low power, just the headunit.

I have not figured out if I can mount them in an enclosure yet, or if they will be free air. If I can make an enclosure, it will be _very_ low volume and I probably will not high pass filter the drivers as the low volume should help prevent over excursion.

I could fit a non polarized cap in series with the 4" drivers to help protect them from trying to reproduce too much bass if they are mounted free air. A singe cap is just a 6db / octave slope, what -3db freq, or uF value would you advise?

The icontv stuff looks pricey. I don't really have room for much of a speaker and my guess is it will sound relatively poor regardless of how much I spend so I am trying to limit the budget to under $100 or so for a 4" driver.

Thanks,
-Joe
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post #15 of 27 Old 02-15-2012, 06:27 AM
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Try calling them (Icon/Critical Mass). The website prices are not necessarily what you pay. I once worked for them so have firsthand experience. They carry a lot of specialty items.
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post #16 of 27 Old 02-15-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slowjoe View Post

I am running low power, just the headunit.

I have not figured out if I can mount them in an enclosure yet, or if they will be free air. If I can make an enclosure, it will be _very_ low volume and I probably will not high pass filter the drivers as the low volume should help prevent over excursion.

I could fit a non polarized cap in series with the 4" drivers to help protect them from trying to reproduce too much bass if they are mounted free air. A singe cap is just a 6db / octave slope, what -3db freq, or uF value would you advise?

The icontv stuff looks pricey. I don't really have room for much of a speaker and my guess is it will sound relatively poor regardless of how much I spend so I am trying to limit the budget to under $100 or so for a 4" driver.

Thanks,
-Joe

Not necessarily will they sound bad. If you have access to tools, you could use a section of pvc pipe fit a MDF insert for the woofer to mount to. Paint/carpet to match interior decor and viola', you have an enclosure that you can custom size to fit. and small enough to give some cone control.

Your head unit if it is aftermarket may have some crossover functionality depending on model.

Those Faitel speakers I lised work in a tiny enclosure. The 3" can actually be used "Full Range" or rather run it without a tweeter. And the power you have would do fine as the speakers are a fairly efficient design.
Those Pioneers that you listed should do fine for your application though.

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post #17 of 27 Old 02-15-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Head unit is an older Pioneer aftermarket unit that does not have any crossover capability. I had it laying around and figured it would get some tunes in the car.

I was pretty much thinking the exact same thing regarding the enclosure. A piece of PCV pipe with an MDF front. I will probably only have 2 inches or so of pipe length hence the very low enclosure volume.

I have the 6x9s hooked up and they provide a surprising amount of bass reproduction. As a fluke, I hooked up two stock 3.5" BOSE speakers out of a junk car and although they were never intended to be full range (they were originally used with a larger woofer in door, and a sailpanel tweeter) the MINI sounds a _lot_ better with sound coming from the front. I think/hope a coaxial 4" driver might be pretty acceptable, though severely lacking in midbass...

-Joe
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post #18 of 27 Old 02-15-2012, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I like the Faiitels, but they were listed as 8 ohms. I know the head unit will have no problem with that from a stability perspective but I thought that might reduce the already limited power output from the head unit. Also it did not look like they came with grills so I would have to fab something up.

It sounds surprisingly good with just the bose twiddlers up front, but there is absolutely no midbass. I could try fabbing up a quicky enclosure to see if it helps, but I did not want to go through the hassle if I was just going to change speakers anyway...

keep the ideas coming I still have not bought anything...
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post #19 of 27 Old 02-16-2012, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slowjoe View Post

I like the Faiitels, but they were listed as 8 ohms. I know the head unit will have no problem with that from a stability perspective but I thought that might reduce the already limited power output from the head unit. Also it did not look like they came with grills so I would have to fab something up.

It sounds surprisingly good with just the bose twiddlers up front, but there is absolutely no midbass. I could try fabbing up a quicky enclosure to see if it helps, but I did not want to go through the hassle if I was just going to change speakers anyway...

keep the ideas coming I still have not bought anything...

The Faitels need about 17 watts to het max output before linearity issues start to rise (distortion starts going up pretty quickly). Funny thing is 8 ohm drivers are usually as efficient or moreso than 4 ohm drivers.

As for the Bose drivers, I am sure they help a lot and odds are, you wont get much midbass out of them. If any before destroying them. Your idea of a small speaker will help up front and even if it starts rolling off ~200 hertz you still have more midrange and overall sound so it should sound much better.

I would just follow through with your initial plan of a small 3-4 inch driver.

Another idea that requires very little space but would require some protection for the driver in the form of passive protection (passive crossover) is a BG planar driver the Neo 8

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-712

A little more than you wanted to spend. Have seen them crossed at 250 hertz. Have seen them used without a tweeter as well. Just ran 250 to 20000 hertz. They have a little harshness around 12k but that can be addressed.

I used them in my system when I was running 3 way active though a little higher frequency wise. Just an option

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post #20 of 27 Old 02-16-2012, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think I can fit the planer driver, but I will take some measurements. The planer unit did not look like it had much low freq response at all though... I am really trying to get as much low freq response as possible from a driver I can use full range for about $100 per pair or less that will work either free air, or in a tiny (0.3L - 0.6L) enclosure

Has anyone tried these I would have to buy or make grills, but they seemed to get good reviews, although most people did low pass them at about 5kHz. I guess I could mount them, a Xover, and a tweeter but space is really at a premium and I would prefer the 3-4" single driver solution. (The driver can be coaxial as that does not take additional space, which is why I liked the Pioneers) The Daytons are listed as full range, has anyone tried them in that configuration?

The speakers from the junk car prove that I need something up front. I don't think they are the right solution, but the experiment proved to me that having any speaker up front is _much_ better than having nothing. The junk car speakers also proved that more midbass response would be a good thing. When listening to Pink Floyd's "money" the stereo effect when the bags of change slam down in the beginning was dominated by the rears and that sounded odd...

Thinking of pulling the trigger on something soon. Right now I am still leaning towards the Pioneers, but the Daytons are very interesting. What I do not like about the Pioneers is they say they have a mounting diameter of 4 1/8" which will not fit in 4" sch40 pipe without some modifications...

-Joe
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post #21 of 27 Old 02-16-2012, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I just read the Q&A section on the Dayton speakers. Not advised for full range as the metal cone has resonance issues at 12 kHz...
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post #22 of 27 Old 02-17-2012, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I just ordered the Pioneer ts-d1002r 4" drivers. I know they are kinda consumer grade and are not really high end, but I think they will suit the bill. Getting any sound up front is going go be a big improvement over just the rear 6x9s. I need a small full range driver and I hope these will do.

-Joe
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post #23 of 27 Old 02-20-2012, 08:33 PM
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Kenwood 4x10's under the seat
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post #24 of 27 Old 02-29-2012, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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It is done.

I went with an older Pioneer headunit I had from a previous vehicle, Pioneed TS-d1002r 4" speakers mounted under the dash up front and Pioneer TS-d6902 6x9s under the rear seats.

I mounted the headunit under the dash with a universal mount, and attached the remote the the top of the dash with Velcro.

I made small enclosures out of 4" PVC sewer caps for the front speakers and epoxied them to a 3/4" plywood face that I bolted to the underside of the dash. I tried running them without the enclosures and they distorted at higher volumes / lower frequencies. I sealed the enclosures up tight and there is no distortion even though I am not running any high pass filters. The enclosures are about 0.5L so they are prettty small and control cone motion. They do not interfere with my legs when driving and are just a slight annoyance when getting in and out of the car.

The rears are mounted on a single piece of 3/4" plywood that I fitted under the rear seat and covered in vinyl.

So, how does it sound? OK. It is about 500% better than when I had no front speakers, but it would be better if the fronts were up a bit higher and had more midbass. Generally it sounds better than most modern cars factory audio, but it is nothing to write home about. The Pioneer 6x9s put out a VERY impressive amount of bass, but no one would confuse them for an amplified sub.

Overall I am happy with the results. I have decent sounding tunes that do not take up much precious interior space. Pics for those that are interested:

Fronts - You can see the pass side just under the dash and inboard of the rollbar. The drivers side is hard to see:


Rears:
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post #25 of 27 Old 02-29-2012, 07:38 PM
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Congrats!!!

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post #26 of 27 Old 03-31-2012, 12:51 AM
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With just a tweeter up front it sounds like that.
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post #27 of 27 Old 03-31-2012, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I ended up squeezing a 4" Pioneer tsd1002 driver up front. You can see it in the first picture just to the left of the head unit. It does not make any bass, but it has much more range than a tweeter.

joe
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