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post #1 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,
New member to the site and hoping to start it all off with a subwoofer for my new Jeep Grand Cherokee.

I want to minimize space taken so I'm bias towards having a single 12" Kicker subwoofer (not for brand but reviews). The two varieties I'm looking at are:
Kicker CompVR 07CVR124
Kicker 10C124 Comp

and will more than likely pair it with this amp:
Pyramid PB717X 1,000-Watt 2-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier

What kind of bass should I be expecting? I'm really hoping to be able to shake my mirrorrs and skull with a single 12" with a lot of wattage. Is this goal possible or do I really need to upgrade to 2 10"?

Thanks a lot, fellow Bassheads
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-06-2012, 09:23 AM
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First,
research Hoffman's Iron Law

Second, budget?


Single 12" in the right enclosure will shake the tar out of you. I suggest a ported enclosure which if you are building it, requires attention to detail and having a correct design. I suggest tuning 30-35 hertz for the most efficiency to low end compromise. Big fan of multiple subs as less distortion and power compression. For the record I run a single 15, but if I had it to do over again....

That amp is on the lower end of what I would buy. I would look at audiopipe which is a budget brand that seems to have a good following does rated power (none of that XXXXwatts MAX) labling. If that doesn't appeal to you brand-wise I can suggest from there.

Subwoofer brands do not have to be car specific. Dayton makes good subs. JBL makes great inexpensive subs as well as high end. Infinity (JBL), Kicker (which you found) Depending on your budget, give a look at the ower lines fro Digital Designs and Sundown Audio. The 500 and 1500 (Digital Designs) series are known for being great low budget beasts and the Sundown SA series are beasts. Again, not sure of the budget.

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post #3 of 21 Old 02-06-2012, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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My budget I'd say is under $200. Is it possible to get a single 12" and amp that'll rattle my skull for this much?

Do ported boxes sound lower quality or just louder?
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-06-2012, 05:11 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/ctg/99213186?_imid=130612936258#

1000 watt amp. Will allow you to get a second sub (coil configuration allowing) and add it in if you want to get even more bass.
subs

cheaper
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...nce-1262W.html


i would get this one
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...nce-1262W.html


a little out of your budget but will outperform pretty much anything else in the price range unless you come up on some super deal.


Enclosures:
If you here a bad sounding ported enclosure, it is the design and implementation of THAT enclosure with the woofer used. There are trade offs just like in life. bigger and more complex than sealed, but they play lower, louder with same power and can move some air.

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post #5 of 21 Old 02-06-2012, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a killer sub with a really high max wattage. I only really want one 12" for space reasons. How strong would it be paired with a Pyramid PB717X 1,000-Watt amplifier or any 1000 watt amp?

Also how about this enclosure? Would ported be hands down better than sealed?
http://www.amazon.com/Atrend-12-Inch...ref=pd_vtp_e_3
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post #6 of 21 Old 02-06-2012, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garofoli View Post

That's a killer sub with a really high max wattage. I only really want one 12" for space reasons. How strong would it be paired with a Pyramid PB717X 1,000-Watt amplifier or any 1000 watt amp?

Also how about this enclosure? Would ported be hands down better than sealed?
http://www.amazon.com/Atrend-12-Inch...ref=pd_vtp_e_3

Don't worry about the wattage rating of the subwoofer.

As for the amp, while the price is super nice from what I have found, the only way that amp will make a 1000 watts is if it gets hit by lightning. thing has a 30 amp fuse on the power supply side. Most Class AB amplifiers are under 50% efficient. So let's do some math to help you decide what this amp does power wise. For the record, this amp is rated at 50 watts per channel at a 4 ohm load and 75 watts at a 2 ohm load. It is bridgeable to a single channel at a 4 ohm load minimum so no lower and provides 150 watts.

Now math time. I will go easy here. Just the basics without going to deep.

wattage is volts times amps.

so your car battery is 12 volts
the fuse is rated to blow at 30 amps

12 volts times 30 amps equals 360 watts and if you figure half that is converted to heat that leaves you with power available at 180 watts. so it out performs it's specs but can come no where near a 1000 watts.


My point is in my opinion (it's your money) you will NOT be happy with the amp. In fact down the road you will feel you through away good money and want more. Thereby having to spend even more money with little chance you recoup your loss by selling this pyramid amp.

Would I buy the amp? No. not for sub usage. maybe to drive a set of speakers in your doors,ash or rear speakers.

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post #7 of 21 Old 02-06-2012, 07:05 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-GTO3501-...item23188975f2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Infinity-Ref...item2a186c39f9

JBL clearance outlet on ebay. Bought my sons 2 1500 watt amplifiers for his system./ They still play fine and look new.

I have the 300 watt version of this amp sitting in a drawer. I use it to test subs. awesome little sub amp.

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post #8 of 21 Old 02-08-2012, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/99213186?_imid=130612936258#

1000 watt amp. Will allow you to get a second sub (coil configuration allowing) and add it in if you want to get even more bass.
subs

+1. Nothing really new has been invented in Class D amplication and this baby has a built in subsonic so going ported is easy. Just set your subsonic to 3-4HZ below your tuning frequency (ported) and pound away.

But I'm a real coward when running a "entry" level amp at 1 ohms. Not for any risk to my subwoofer, but rather to setting my car on fire.

So having said that, I'd run this sub at 2 ohms. Its on clearance at Parts-express and is all around a great subwoofer for the $48 price. 700w ported will be obnoxiously loud.

I always recommend building your own ported box, but failing that ebay has a lot of prebuilt boxes for cheap. Just make sure you set your subsonic frequency CORRECTLY if you are running 700w into a ported sub.
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post #9 of 21 Old 02-08-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm clueless when it comes to omhs, how watts translate to sound, etc.

I would honestly like to see a couple choices between subwoofers and amps that I could mix/match between that would accomplish my skull shaking goal while being under $200 and having only a single 12". Thank you very much. Possibly list a couple choices for amps/subs that I could do further research on.

And it sounds like ported boxes are always better?
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post #10 of 21 Old 02-09-2012, 10:12 AM
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Cubdeno and myself have given you our recommendations. They add up to around $200 plus a few misc accessories like screws & speaker wire.

Here's a quick explanation of how to wire subwoofers at various ohms:
http://community.crutchfield.com/for...044/27370.aspx
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-10-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garofoli View Post

I'm clueless when it comes to omhs, how watts translate to sound, etc.

I would honestly like to see a couple choices between subwoofers and amps that I could mix/match between that would accomplish my skull shaking goal while being under $200 and having only a single 12". Thank you very much. Possibly list a couple choices for amps/subs that I could do further research on.

And it sounds like ported boxes are always better?

Here is the thing, the only way to learn is to research yourself and above all read. I got back into this hobby after a hiatus of about 10-12 years. It was due in part to I had no other hobbies due to work, and my son was going to be driving soon and would want a system. So I had to catch myself back up. I did what you did at the beginning of this thread. I asked for help.

Luckily I got with a group of guys who refused to be my personal shopper. But they did guide me, answered questions or pointed me in the direction I needed to go to find the answers I needed.

Fast forward to now and I install 3-6 full systems a year and build probably 20-30 enclosure a year. All for family and friends. I make the kids do their due diligence so that they will know what to do and what they have.

Now, I am going to do the same to you. I will help as much as I can over a forum. It looks like Mark is as well. The only problem I see in your plan is budget and expectations. I get the budget part and I understand what you want to do. I am totally ok with it as well. BUT there will be a limit to what you can do with a 200 dollar budget AND your performance goals.



Now to answer your questions about the ported always being better.
No. Ported has its place. They have benefits but also cons. They are complex to build because you have to be exact. They have to have zero leaks, you have to make sure you high pass the woofer to protect it below tuning, they are physically bigger than sealed.

Now with your performance goals, Ported is the way to go. It maximizes the output in the frequency band you want to cover without even more complexity (bandpass or horns) or size and coupled with cabin gain should yield adequate boom.

Now I suggested a monobloc amp especially because I guessed your lack of understanding of impedance and loading your amplifier. Yes it's more expensive than that pyramid, but if you get the wrong coil configuration, you will smoke an amp just because it was not designed to run a woofer that particular way. The amp I posted has a subsonic filter to protect the woofer and is fairly bulletproof. I have not run that one but the 1800 and the 3000 I have installed for kids. Still running.

The T3 sub, Mark posted is a steal. In fact, were it up to me, I would get two. common chambered ported enclosure tuned about 35 hertz and let you hit in the 130's possibly a bit louder. All for ~200 bucks.

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post #12 of 21 Old 02-10-2012, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I really do appreciate the guidance and do plan on learning the most I can about subwoofers.

For the box:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

For the subwoofer:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A385A0XNQBW8HY

As far as the amp the one's you mentioned were like ~$170. Do cheaper ones exist that have the same power? Never expected the amp to be the most expensive part of this operation.
What about:
http://www.amazon.com/R1100M-Monoblo...8908459&sr=1-2
Or maybe:
http://www.amazon.com/AR1500M-ARMOR-...8908566&sr=1-8
Or anything off here?
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_sc...2Cn%3A10980751

Additionally I really am limited to a single sub as I don't really want to take up that much space. Will I need to replace my car stereo as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

common chambered ported enclosure tuned about 35 hertz and let you hit in the 130's possibly a bit louder. All for ~200 bucks.

Is that skull rattling loud? Pardon my lack of knowledge...


And thank you very much, once again!
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post #13 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garofoli View Post

Is that skull rattling loud? Pardon my lack of knowledge...

YES! 130 dB is the threshold of pain (according to Wikipedia), 120 dB is when hearing damage begins to occur. I find my stereo turned up to "loud" but still comfortable, basically jamming while cruising around is in the 90-100 dB range. 75 dB is the THX movie theater reference and most people consider that plenty loud. I'd say an average factory system can hit in the mids 80s, and even a mild after market system can reach into the 110s easily. Getting 120-130 requires some good equipment but can be done without a wall of subs.

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post #14 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 09:54 AM
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Is 130 db loud?

Well it truly depends on frequency and distance where you are measuring from.

If you look in the DIY Speakers and subs thread on this forum, there are guys who are hitting 130 DB at their listening position. In there home.At 20 hertz and below.

This takes gobs of woofer area, woofer displacement, power and enclosure. or rather a combination of them.

Now in a vehicle with the cabin gain available that way trumps room gain, you get a lot of bass with much less requirements

105db at midrange frequencies as well as high, are screaming. Going even louder get painful real quick.

now bass frequencies where we are not as susceptible to, is a different story. Not to say 140's and up it starts getting uncomfortable quick as well. 150's and wow,160's and Holy Crap!

your SPL vehicles are usually tuned what is considered high 45-60 hertz to couple with the natural resonant frequency of the vehicle. This ends up sounding like a fart. A very loud fart but cruddy just the same. Tuning lower gets you the audible loudness feature. Sure a 150 db's at 55 hertz is loud but a solid 135 db of 35 hertz outside the car sounds louder.

Ever go to a sound off comp and hear a car playing that just drew a crowd because of the shear output of lows. And watch that car score lower over all than cars that didn't sound "out side the vehicle" as loud? Well that is frequency related SPL.

I took my car when I got it done 3 years ago to a local show. There was a guy there that was running 2 15's and a kilowatt amp. He had a huge crowd around and his system was pounding out some serious bass. He was proclaiming himself the winner and that they should just give him the trophy/prize etc. It was actually really impressive. Especially considering the output from the brands of woofer ( a lower end speaker) and just a 1000 watts. Vehicle was a Ford Explorer. There was a guy who was running a single 12 (Type R) and an Alpine kilowatt amp. same type of vehicle.

End result of first pass ws the guy with the 2 15's hitting 135 and the guy with the single 12 hitting a 145.

The guy with the single 12 took top honors in his class. Got the trophy. The other guy drove off after the first pass.

Why I told that story is because it's to common that something like this happens. The guy who won was running a ~50 hertz tune. His material was set up to play a 45- 65 hertz tone that complimented his vehicles resonant frequency. It sounded bad but in his truck it got SPL related Loud.

Is 130 DB loud? At 35 hertz and up, yes. For your budget? Yes.

Wil you be able to do better? Absolutely. But like everything especially hobby related, it just takes more money.

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post #15 of 21 Old 03-01-2012, 10:37 PM
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Honestly I hit a 144 at 32 Hz and I am still not satisfied... But I can't go bigger in a trunk
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post #16 of 21 Old 03-02-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andale927 View Post

Honestly I hit a 144 at 32 Hz and I am still not satisfied... But I can't go bigger in a trunk

What equipment? Subs amps enclosure?

I run a trunk having vehicle. And can get louder simply by using a bigger amp. I am around your score seat up sealed and passenger windshield position.

A local kid is in the 154 range with 3 12's. Trunk.

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post #17 of 21 Old 03-05-2012, 12:16 PM
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I ran in the 136-138 dB range with four 10"s sealed in a hatchback with only 300 watts back in early 1990s. I wouldn't want or need any more then that. I took out people running 12"s with more watts mostly because (back then atleast) scoring took sound quality over pure SPL levels. Then as time went on installation became the way to win as motorized neon amp ranks became more important then sound quality. That is when I bailed on the competition scene. My car sounded as good, but didn't have any of that "wow" factor to impress the judges.

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post #18 of 21 Old 03-17-2012, 08:21 AM
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i just upgraded my box and sub(Eclipse 88120DVC Dual 4 ohm Voice Coils) to a better box and 2 12" subs(Alpine Type R SWR-1221D Dual 2 ohm Voice Coils)..kept my same mono amp(Kenwood KAC-9104D)and i dont know what im hitting for DB...but i do know that when the volume level is up to 20 on my head unit(also upgraded to a Kenwood KDC-X995) i literally cannot see to drive.

at volume level 23,it is nearly impossible to breathe or swallow,and feels as though someone is punching you in the back.

i have not made it past volume level 23...nor do i want to

my friend was with me yesterday,he wanted to hear it,so i parked,and then turned it up...his response was "wow,that bass is painful"
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post #19 of 21 Old 03-17-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger91 View Post

i just upgraded my box and sub(Eclipse 88120DVC Dual 4 ohm Voice Coils) to a better box and 2 12" subs(Alpine Type R SWR-1221D Dual 2 ohm Voice Coils)..kept my same mono amp(Kenwood KAC-9104D)and i dont know what im hitting for DB...but i do know that when the volume level is up to 20 on my head unit(also upgraded to a Kenwood KDC-X995) i literally cannot see to drive.

at volume level 23,it is nearly impossible to breathe or swallow,and feels as though someone is punching you in the back.

i have not made it past volume level 23...nor do i want to

my friend was with me yesterday,he wanted to hear it,so i parked,and then turned it up...his response was "wow,that bass is painful"

Awesome!!

I see you have the upgrade sickness. It's a terrible and wonderful disease to have.

You kept the Eclipse i hope?

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post #20 of 21 Old 03-17-2012, 04:47 PM
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i have the eclipse for now,but if i want to upgrade some more then ill be forced to sell it...i think it should be worth $200...but i could be wrong...hell id trade it for a little better head unit..something with bluetooth,4v pre-amp outputs,ipod/iphone capable,and a nice DVD touch screen...lol
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post #21 of 21 Old 04-02-2012, 10:58 PM
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I run just a single 10" (Rockford HE2) in a sealed box with an Alpine MRP 350 and it sounds awesome without being too loud
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