How do I make it sound better and kick harder? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-02-2012, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey I recently purchased a pair of Kicker 10's, ported I think, and a Rockford Fosgate Prime R1000-1d, a 1000 watt amp. I have this set up in the trunk of my 2003 Toyota Celica hatchback and I heard hatchbacks are great for subs. Im am very new to the sub world and was wondering how to make it sound the best its capable of. I have as adjustment knob under my steering wheel area which controls the bass level I believe. I also have Alpine Sps-600 240 watts peak and 80 watts rms type-S speakers and a Sony DSX-s100 with ipod tune tray inside. On the deck settings I have sub level at zero and I control the bass level with that adjusment knob. The place I had the subs installed said to have the sub level on the deck at zero and just use that knob so I do. But I find i want more kick to it but of course with out blowing the subwoofers. And the other day my friends said it should kick harder. I put loud on the deck settings and found it does seem to kick harder as well as adjusting the sub level but I fear that it will blow them. Any suggestings on what I should or could do to make them sound prime would greatly be appreciated.
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post #2 of 14 Old 09-12-2012, 12:10 PM
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I'm pretty sure its your enclosure. Maybe its not in the recommended Cu. Ft. I have this same problem. i Have the Pioneer TS-W309D4 powered by a Pyramid PB717X 1000 Watt and my friends 600Watt system beats me like nothing. He said its pretty much my enclosure.
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post #3 of 14 Old 09-16-2012, 09:04 AM
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Mad maestro,

Can you confirm model number on your subs/ Can better determine whats going on. Also maybe a pic of the enclosure. Even in a sealed box, your subs should do well in a Celica with a 1000 watts. it may be that they are wired for a higher impedance. A number of things could be going on here.

Remember that anytime you use bass boost you max out the amp that much faster.


Win C. I suggest looking at your amp. That amp puts out 150 watts. it will do 1000 watts if it gets hit by lightning. Period. It does 50X2 into a 4 ohm load 75 into a 2 ohm load and 150 in a 4 ohm bridged mono load. Do not run bridged and a 2 ohm load or magic smoke will leave the amp.

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post #4 of 14 Old 10-06-2012, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

I it will do 1000 watts if it gets hit by lightning. Period. .

i almost choked on my grilled cheese laughing at this....eek.gif

Tim
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post #5 of 14 Old 10-23-2012, 08:43 PM
 
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want it to sound better?
you need an equalizer with lots of opportunity to grab the frequency response and adjust the peaks and dips.

want more kick?
well.. maybe a capacitor could help with some extra thump.
but.. sometimes the amplifier simply wont suck up the extra electricity .. either because of the coil or because of the caps, maybe the preamp input inside the amplifier, maybe the transistors themselves.

time alignment can also help get some extra kick.. but the most simple delay isnt enough without also adjusting the other soundwaves, because time delay does one thing and one thing extremely well .. it helps the room fill up with soundwaves once, instead of the soundwaves constantly bouncing and crashing into eachother.
all of that mixing is just like walking down a sidewalk slamming shoulders into other people.
it doesnt help balance the harder those bumps become.

you can use time alignment to tell the delay 'when' to reach the ears, but because of reflections.. they will continue to mix with eachother .. the difference is you've given at least one clear path because everything is splashing together at the listening spot at the same time.

yes.. there will be splashing from reflections and those reflections always mix.
that is why people use impulse response files in a convolution filter to inverse the reflection and make the soundwave kinda just run up to the wall and stay there instead of hitting the reflection spot and bouncing like a bouncy ball.


...and yes,
it could be the enclosure too.
because if the enclosure is too small, then there isnt enough spring to let the subwoofer cone move outwards (there is a spring, but the spring is too tight .. kinda like 3 or 4 ton springs on a vehicle suspension when you need 1 or 2 ton springs)
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post #6 of 14 Old 10-24-2012, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

want it to sound better?
you need an equalizer with lots of opportunity to grab the frequency response and adjust the peaks and dips.
want more kick?
well.. maybe a capacitor could help with some extra thump.
but.. sometimes the amplifier simply wont suck up the extra electricity .. either because of the coil or because of the caps, maybe the preamp input inside the amplifier, maybe the transistors themselves.
time alignment can also help get some extra kick.. but the most simple delay isnt enough without also adjusting the other soundwaves, because time delay does one thing and one thing extremely well .. it helps the room fill up with soundwaves once, instead of the soundwaves constantly bouncing and crashing into eachother.
all of that mixing is just like walking down a sidewalk slamming shoulders into other people.
it doesnt help balance the harder those bumps become.
you can use time alignment to tell the delay 'when' to reach the ears, but because of reflections.. they will continue to mix with eachother .. the difference is you've given at least one clear path because everything is splashing together at the listening spot at the same time.
yes.. there will be splashing from reflections and those reflections always mix.
that is why people use impulse response files in a convolution filter to inverse the reflection and make the soundwave kinda just run up to the wall and stay there instead of hitting the reflection spot and bouncing like a bouncy ball.
...and yes,
it could be the enclosure too.
because if the enclosure is too small, then there isnt enough spring to let the subwoofer cone move outwards (there is a spring, but the spring is too tight .. kinda like 3 or 4 ton springs on a vehicle suspension when you need 1 or 2 ton springs)

huh????

Tim
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post #7 of 14 Old 10-24-2012, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

want it to sound better?
you need an equalizer with lots of opportunity to grab the frequency response and adjust the peaks and dips.
want more kick?
well.. maybe a capacitor could help with some extra thump.
but.. sometimes the amplifier simply wont suck up the extra electricity .. either because of the coil or because of the caps, maybe the preamp input inside the amplifier, maybe the transistors themselves.
time alignment can also help get some extra kick.. but the most simple delay isnt enough without also adjusting the other soundwaves, because time delay does one thing and one thing extremely well .. it helps the room fill up with soundwaves once, instead of the soundwaves constantly bouncing and crashing into eachother.
all of that mixing is just like walking down a sidewalk slamming shoulders into other people.
it doesnt help balance the harder those bumps become.
you can use time alignment to tell the delay 'when' to reach the ears, but because of reflections.. they will continue to mix with eachother .. the difference is you've given at least one clear path because everything is splashing together at the listening spot at the same time.
yes.. there will be splashing from reflections and those reflections always mix.
that is why people use impulse response files in a convolution filter to inverse the reflection and make the soundwave kinda just run up to the wall and stay there instead of hitting the reflection spot and bouncing like a bouncy ball.
...and yes,
it could be the enclosure too.
because if the enclosure is too small, then there isnt enough spring to let the subwoofer cone move outwards (there is a spring, but the spring is too tight .. kinda like 3 or 4 ton springs on a vehicle suspension when you need 1 or 2 ton springs)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Don't forget that the flux capacitor must be always oriented to absolute polar south so that the hypersonic waveform of the subsonic frequencies below -50 hertz are equal to the temperature of 3200 kelvin. That will of course justify all that you advised.

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post #8 of 14 Old 10-24-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Don't forget that the flux capacitor must be always oriented to absolute polar south so that the hypersonic waveform of the subsonic frequencies below -50 hertz are equal to the temperature of 3200 kelvin. That will of course justify all that you advised.

so he WAS joking around? I was confused and thinking he was being serious....eek.gif
*whew*

Tim
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post #9 of 14 Old 10-24-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

so he WAS joking around? I was confused and thinking he was being serious....eek.gif
*whew*

No. I think he was being serious...

Hence my response. Errrr both of them:D. wink.gif

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post #10 of 14 Old 10-27-2012, 06:27 AM
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You can have the most expensive sub and most powerful amp in the world sound like a speaker from an iphone if it's not in the right enclosure.... and all the equalization in the world won't help it. To the other extreme, you can have a cheap sub hooked up to a small amp and have it sound like a champ IF it's in a properly designed case.

With sub woofers, 90% of it is the enclosure. If the power is there and you can see the sub banging away, but it's not producing much, then your enclosure is the problem.
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post #11 of 14 Old 10-27-2012, 07:46 AM
 
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.......that's an exageration.

even a cold fusion speaker can get materials added or taken away like a phase plug to help.
the only way to circumvent the statement is to make the enclosure large (or small) enough that the whole thing needs to be redesigned before materials added or subtracted will meet the tune of the enclosure (and|or the room).


not enough people care about why speakers come with a recommended box size.
is it the phase response?
is it the frequency response?
is it the slew from the voice coil?
is it a combination of any or all of the above?


knowing those answers helps a tremendous deal when changing from the recommended box size.

for sealed boxes..
if the subwoofer doesnt have enough magnetic strength to move in a small box, there wont be enough movement to make an acceptable dB (or spl) level.

if the subwoofer has too much magnetic strength, then a box that is too big can cause the voice coil to smack the bottom of the magnet (or the linear excursion starts to lean sideways, causing the voice coil to rub the magnet until it sands itself away and breaks a connection).


there is reference math to get the best enclosure size for the speaker.
but then there is always math adjustments to help the speaker blend in with the room it is in.
it might be uncommon, but there are speaker boxes built for a specific speaker inside a specific room.


the beginning of the math starts with what you want to achieve, and it is the same as the list above.


an equalizer can help a large amount in most situations .. but combine the equalization with a calibrated speaker box and the results just get bigger and better.


too many people have one simple serious problem..
they expect the speaker to be inside the speaker box it comes in and sound perfect .. because they dont realize placing the speaker in the trunk, or in a room in the house, or thrown on the back seat .. all of those rooms will make the sound from the speaker sound different when viewing things as 'plug and play'

do some audio engineering and make each one of those rooms act as if it doesnt exist, then and only then will the speaker sound the same no matter which room you throw it in (and even then, sometimes there is always a difference in sound pressure levels).


the absolute hardest part is say.. you need like 10dB boost at 20hz , but you calibrated the gain of the amplifier with a test tone at 60hz because that is the only thing the multimeter would read a voltage reading from.
because of that..
the voltage from the amplifier can rise beyond the RMS value and burn up the voice coil.

since most amplifiers are relatively flat.. you should set 60hz to the same amount of boost and take a voltage reading to see how many watts are going to the voice coil.
it might not be perfectly accurate, but it is better than raising the boost on an equalizer only to blow your subwoofer's voice coil in the next 3-4 hours.


there isnt much that helps audio sound perfect without dialing in a calibration effort.
the few things that do exist are really short of a list:
1. toe in the speaker angle to get the biggest phase opposition from the listening position in ratio with the reflections from the walls.
2. buy a large amount of sound absorption and hope the speakers (and the box they are in) are already the same phase as the room WITH a flat frequency response
3. use the automatic equalizer calibration that comes with some systems.


the audio industry simply isnt designed for plug and play.
not even those home theater in a box with a subwoofer, because the frequency response isnt perfectly flat (close but still needs adjustment) and the subwoofer level needs calibrated with the rest of it.

the bad thing about those systems is,
playing pink noise wont get anywhere close to an actual mode of the room.
(mode is when the pink noise stops sounding like snow and starts to disappear into silence)
and that means people without a microphone trying to do it by ear are stuck listening to snow, over and over, for hours upon hours because the mode is never-ever met.

you might get your brain happy , but there isnt any knowledge of how close to reference the final result is.




all things aside..
the post might of been a reason to try the other suggestions listed (time alignment, phase adjustment).
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post #12 of 14 Old 10-27-2012, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

.......that's an exageration.
even a cold fusion speaker can get materials added or taken away like a phase plug to help.
the only way to circumvent the statement is to make the enclosure large (or small) enough that the whole thing needs to be redesigned before materials added or subtracted will meet the tune of the enclosure (and|or the room).
not enough people care about why speakers come with a recommended box size.
is it the phase response?
is it the frequency response?
is it the slew from the voice coil?
is it a combination of any or all of the above?
knowing those answers helps a tremendous deal when changing from the recommended box size.
for sealed boxes..
if the subwoofer doesnt have enough magnetic strength to move in a small box, there wont be enough movement to make an acceptable dB (or spl) level.
if the subwoofer has too much magnetic strength, then a box that is too big can cause the voice coil to smack the bottom of the magnet (or the linear excursion starts to lean sideways, causing the voice coil to rub the magnet until it sands itself away and breaks a connection).
there is reference math to get the best enclosure size for the speaker.
but then there is always math adjustments to help the speaker blend in with the room it is in.
it might be uncommon, but there are speaker boxes built for a specific speaker inside a specific room.
the beginning of the math starts with what you want to achieve, and it is the same as the list above.
an equalizer can help a large amount in most situations .. but combine the equalization with a calibrated speaker box and the results just get bigger and better.
too many people have one simple serious problem..
they expect the speaker to be inside the speaker box it comes in and sound perfect .. because they dont realize placing the speaker in the trunk, or in a room in the house, or thrown on the back seat .. all of those rooms will make the sound from the speaker sound different when viewing things as 'plug and play'
do some audio engineering and make each one of those rooms act as if it doesnt exist, then and only then will the speaker sound the same no matter which room you throw it in (and even then, sometimes there is always a difference in sound pressure levels).
the absolute hardest part is say.. you need like 10dB boost at 20hz , but you calibrated the gain of the amplifier with a test tone at 60hz because that is the only thing the multimeter would read a voltage reading from.
because of that..
the voltage from the amplifier can rise beyond the RMS value and burn up the voice coil.
since most amplifiers are relatively flat.. you should set 60hz to the same amount of boost and take a voltage reading to see how many watts are going to the voice coil.
it might not be perfectly accurate, but it is better than raising the boost on an equalizer only to blow your subwoofer's voice coil in the next 3-4 hours.
there isnt much that helps audio sound perfect without dialing in a calibration effort.
the few things that do exist are really short of a list:
1. toe in the speaker angle to get the biggest phase opposition from the listening position in ratio with the reflections from the walls.
2. buy a large amount of sound absorption and hope the speakers (and the box they are in) are already the same phase as the room WITH a flat frequency response
3. use the automatic equalizer calibration that comes with some systems.
the audio industry simply isnt designed for plug and play.
not even those home theater in a box with a subwoofer, because the frequency response isnt perfectly flat (close but still needs adjustment) and the subwoofer level needs calibrated with the rest of it.
the bad thing about those systems is,
playing pink noise wont get anywhere close to an actual mode of the room.
(mode is when the pink noise stops sounding like snow and starts to disappear into silence)
and that means people without a microphone trying to do it by ear are stuck listening to snow, over and over, for hours upon hours because the mode is never-ever met.
you might get your brain happy , but there isnt any knowledge of how close to reference the final result is.
all things aside..
the post might of been a reason to try the other suggestions listed (time alignment, phase adjustment).

again...huh???

Tim
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post #13 of 14 Old 10-27-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

.......that's an exageration.

Not really.
Quote:
is it the phase response?
is it the frequency response?
is it the slew from the voice coil?
is it a combination of any or all of the above?

Pretty much all of this here can be corrected (or at least altered and adjusted) by the enclosure in question.... including out of phase speakers. That's an extreme and unrealistic example mind you, but quite possible.

I do agree however that adjusting a given response to a given vehicle is is not at all a 'universal' thing. In fact an automotive interior is probably about the worst audio environment one could ever think of, and equalizers can help fine tune this issue without having to rebuild boxes to the specifics of each interior. But then again your sub and box at LEAST have to be in the general ball park in order for and equalizer to have any effect.
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post #14 of 14 Old 10-27-2012, 09:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Pretty much all of this here can be corrected (or at least altered and adjusted) by the enclosure in question.... including out of phase speakers. That's an extreme and unrealistic example mind you, but quite possible.


but what you arent saying about extreme and unrealistic is:
extreme - the size of the box is usually large, and there are additional shapes inside the box that stack up like building a bandpass box to get those alterations .. and to get the entire frequency response, the entire trunk might get filled up with the box .. or maybe there simply isnt enough room for the box to fit with the trunk closed.

unrealistic - sometimes doing all of those adjustments to the speaker with a box can actually make the kick (or thump) less in pressure or dB .. and to re-design the box to prevent that means a compromise to some other aspect of the list given.
(but this is why choosing the specific speaker because of the theile small parameters begins to happen, and it is really where a lot of speaker cabinet designers nestle themselves in their cave)

apparently a lot of people simply expect money or trade for services instead of allowing other people to worship the same hobby using will power alone.
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