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post #1 of 29 Old 09-29-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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hey guys im new on this forum, i come here in search of a solution for my audio problem, maybe someone can help. For a while i have been running 2 12 inch fusion power plant subs with a spl 1600w amp and a 3.5farad power cap, had no issues. recently my friend upgraded his system so he gave me his 2 MTX audio 12s, today i hooked them up to run with my fusions and after i was done they worked for about 2-3 minutes then i shut my car off to clean up my tools etc. i turn it back on to go somewhere pull out the driveway and both subs cut off. i turned my car off turned it back on the power cap and amp would come on for a second then quickly shut off. i checked all my speaker wires, fuses etc. everything seemed fine, i wasnt getting power to the amp. is my amp blown or what are some possible solutions to go about this? if my map is blown whats a good amp that will be able to run all 4 continuously.

thanks for any help
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post #2 of 29 Old 10-01-2012, 11:06 AM
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Sounds like you may have smoked the amp. Can you list the exact model of amp and subwoofers? I need coil configurations of the subs.

My bet is your amp is a 4 ohm stable bridged mono and you were running quite a bit below that.

As for amplifiers that can handle what you want to do, I am a huge fan of Sundown audio. I run the SAZ1500D. 1500 watts rated at 12.5 volts into a 1 ohm load. Can be run lower but you will want adequate electrical (battery and alternator).

There are a multitude of amplifiers that can handle what you are wanting to do. I suggest a minimum of 1 ohm stable mono block (single channel) at whatever power rating you want. Beware of max ratings. They are often only possible when struck by lightening. An easy way to get into a ballpark power output that gets close is take the fuses on the amp, add them together and multiply by 12. Then you can determine the efficiency of the amp. No amp is 100% (power in=power out).
EX:
My amp has 160 amps of fusing. 160X12=1920 watts of power. The amp is listed as around 80% efficient. So 80% of 1920 watts is 1536 watts at 12 volts. I figure 12 volts as the battery voltage. My alternator puts out 13.8 volts but it's the factory alt. So max power available is battery voltage. If you were running a class AB amplifier instead of a class D then figure efficiency is between 30 and 50%. My guess is you are running a class AB. Pretty common. Good design just not always low impedance capable.

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post #3 of 29 Old 10-01-2012, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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this is the amp i had http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7411_SPL-Z2X-1600.html
these are my fusions http://www.kandtsales.com/shop/product_page.php?parent_top=Electronics&parent_mid=Mobile&parent_low=Subwoofers&prod_id=26
and i have no clue what coil the MTX's are but they are 4ohm and put out i think 300w RMS not sure on this though
i would prefer one amp but dont mind running dual amps. that sundown amp is nice but gee expensive haha, i talked to some bestbuy guys and they showed me a kicker 100.1 for $350 and a few others but im only 17 and my budget isnt that high haha
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post #4 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 07:45 AM
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Hey bud, no problem.

Fusion subs are dual coil 4 ohm per coil.

Your amp is NOT 1 ohm stable mono and not 2 ohm stable mono.

It is a little bigger than i was expecting though. My son, nephew and their friends come to me a lot with the dreaded "I was wiring up these subs and now my amp doesn't work" questions/problems.

Without knowing your exact budget but understanding the limitations of extra cash on hand, I would suggest Audiopipe as the brand to have. Solid, provides rated power, crossover, subsonic filter, 1 ohm stable

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0HF-0008-00003

Will provide 1500@1 ohm

You need to make sure that you have adequate power wire and fusing at the battery. A solid ground is imperative.

Second thing is use a digital multimeter to check the resistance of the MTX subs coils. If they are in a box, check each speaker connection to determine the resistance. As long as they are not 2 ohms or under, you should be fine. IF there is a single speaker connection for all the MTX subs (ex: they are mounted in an enclosure. There is a single point that has a single connection for positive and negative speaker wires for both MTX subs) And the measured resistance is 2 ohms or higher then you can run all subs together as the 2 fusion subs will now be a 4 ohm load and the MTX will be a 2 ohm or greater. The amplifier will not see below 1 ohm. Clear as mud?


Without knowing the coil config of the MTX subs the safest thing would be to Series wire each fusion sub for an 8 ohm load.

If the MTX subs are dual coil then series wire them as well. Then parallel wire each sub to the amp.

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post #5 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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all my power, ground wires are set, im not using anything fancy just simple 12/18 gauge red wire, i have no fuse at my battery as its just a straight hook up. the guy at bestbuy tested the subs for me and the MTX's read 4ohm and my fusions read 2ohm. there is a +,- for each sub on the back of the enclosure.

that amp is well in my budget and i think that could be a go for me, but if you could show me a diagram or what not of what the series/parallel or whatever wiring method is better that would be helpful

thanks
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post #6 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 01:34 PM
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12/18 gauge???? No fuse??? No such thing as a simple hook up. Well there is, but there are also simple things that have to be done to do the job correctly and safely. That wire that you are using for power and ground are incredibly undersized. Especially for the Audiopipe amp. I would use no less than 4 gauge and probably 1/0 for a long battery to trunk run. Will explain why and what can happen later.

That said, I am at work and will try to give you some diagrams tonight when I get home.

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post #7 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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okay i can rewire my power and ground wires to a smaller gauge/thicker wire. but the remote wire can remain right? also do you think my power cap fried along with my amp?
also you think that amp would have no problem running both of these? im stuck because some people are telling me to get 2 amps because of the mismatch and others are telling me one can run it but one set would be underpowered.
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post #8 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liftednali View Post

okay i can rewire my power and ground wires to a smaller gauge/thicker wire. but the remote wire can remain right? also do you think my power cap fried along with my amp?
also you think that amp would have no problem running both of these? im stuck because some people are telling me to get 2 amps because of the mismatch and others are telling me one can run it but one set would be underpowered.

The mismatch is unfortunate but not problematic. The people telling you that one set will be receiving less power is correct. It looks like your Fusions are wired parallel to each speaker terminal. Since the subs are dual 4 ohm coils. Each coil is directly wired (+ to +) and (- to -). You of course only see the outside of the enclosure and see the two speaker terminals so you see a positive and a negative for each subwoofer.

I will be honest, it may be easier for you to just use the 2 fusions if they can handle the power. Are they rated to handle 750 watts each?

reason I ask is at their current wiring configuration, you have a 1 ohm load if you wire each sub parallel. (+ to +) and (- to -).

To get louder there are a couple things one can do. Add more cone area (more speakers) or more power. Doubling cone area yields 3db. That's it. Doubling power yields 3db. Again, that's it.

Doing both yield 6db.

With the current woofers, you will not get 6db because you can't get the doubling of power to each woofer. Now you get the doubling of cone area for a 3 db gain, but the mtx woofers will be getting the lions share of power and the fusions a couple hundred or so watts less. The amp should see about a 1.3 ohm or so load for a bit under 1500 watts of power. Say...1200. Shared into the MTX subs wired at 2 ohms final and the Fusions wired for a 4 ohm load final.

Since the MTX and the fusion subs are in separate enclosures the woofers won't really care. No damage or issues.

Are the enclosures ported or sealed? I ask because there can be issues.

Sorry for all the questions.


The remote turn on can be small.

That amp needs a good 4 gauge at the minimum. Think trying to suck a shake through a coffee stirrer. Lots of resistance. The biger the straw the easier the amp can get power. Less heat is produced. Less voltage drop at the amp. The amp works easier.

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post #9 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 03:51 PM
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Not sure about the cap. I am not a fan of them. In most cases they do nothing. The volt meter is often nice though.

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post #10 of 29 Old 10-02-2012, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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they are rated at 450RMS so 900 total. im not understanding what the getting it louder has to do with anything. im not sure what is the difference between ported and sealed and how can i tell? and its fine because you're helping me. and okay i get that haha. now since the fusions put out 900 and the mtx put out 600 a 1500 amp would be just enough isnt it good to have a little more power than too less. i see where i went wrong with my amp, peak power is 1600w but RMS power is at 740 or so. for this amp the peak and RMS are equal at 1500w.
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post #11 of 29 Old 10-03-2012, 07:52 PM
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Don't get caught up in meaningless peak power amp ratings. Marketing pure and simple. I have seen 50 watt amplifiers with 1000 watt max ratings. So a person who doesn't know any better buys it. And a big sub and throws it in their vehicle. Now they are jamming out thinking yeah I gots me a 1000 watts o powah. While in reality, they are pushing at most 200 watts.

Apparently I am missing a post I tried to send last night. I just got to Arkansas for work and will have to post it again tomorrow.

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post #12 of 29 Old 10-06-2012, 03:05 PM
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i skimmed past the mismatched subs, but was cautious, but then i got as far as no fuse at the battery and "best buy"....biggrin.gif

Tim
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post #13 of 29 Old 10-10-2012, 08:05 AM
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First step i see, buy bigger wire. Lots of good places youc an choose and id recommed buyign bigger gauge the better that way you dont have to keep upgrading when you want bigger amps down teh road. Id shoot for ATLEAST 4 guauge, preferably 0 if you can afford it i know you said your on a budget. Check out Knukonceptz for wire, high quality and extremely flexible aswell.

Then as they said, start to look for a new amp. Just because an amp can do 1500 watts doesnt mean you have to use all of it, but it leaves you room to upgrade to bigger subs down the road. I'd save up for the sundown if you can.

Id recommend doing this stuff first though before trying to integrate more stuff into your system.

AND GET A FUSE INLINE WITH THE POWER WIRE IF YOU HAVENT ALREADY! The wirign you are using sounds wayyyy to small already, to the point where you are potentially risking a fire in your car when your wire heats up so hot from all the current running through that it ignites your carpet.

Good forums for caraudio if you arent already part of them:
diyma.com
caraudio.com
caraudioclassifieds.net
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post #14 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah definitely getting most likely 4 gauge wire, and i've got a buddy that is helping me find a amp right now but not sure the progress on it, i might go through with that audiopipe amp, that sundown amp is too expensive for me haha do you know of any amp brands to avoid and which ones are good for 1500wrms or however much i need but at $200 or less
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post #15 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liftednali View Post

yeah definitely getting most likely 4 gauge wire, and i've got a buddy that is helping me find a amp right now but not sure the progress on it, i might go through with that audiopipe amp, that sundown amp is too expensive for me haha do you know of any amp brands to avoid and which ones are good for 1500wrms or however much i need but at $200 or less

why 1500 watts? And at what impedance? Lots of good amps out there....PPI black Ice makes a nice inexpensive amp...i would also suggest checking the used market.

But what exactly are you powering with this amp? And what kind of box are you using?

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post #16 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

why 1500 watts? And at what impedance? Lots of good amps out there....PPI black Ice makes a nice inexpensive amp...i would also suggest checking the used market.
But what exactly are you powering with this amp? And what kind of box are you using?

I think he wants a 1500 watt amp is because I listed the audio pipe one.

He wants to run 4 subs. 2 dual coil subs@4 ohms a coil and 2 single coil subs with 4 ohm coils.
I believe they are in separate enclosures. He is looking for max amount of bass. In my estimation.

It is possible to do it. It will. Require him to pay very careful attention to wiring them up as 2 subs will be receiving less power than the other two. Still ok as long as they are not in the same enclosure. He also needs to confirm what enclosure type is being used.


For cheap class d power it's hard to beat the audio pipe. I like the ppi stuff. But really think he will end up happier and money ahead getting the AP. mo Powah.

I would get the ap amp and build a correct enclosure for his two fusion subs and rock the $h!t out of them wired parallel.

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post #17 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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im not sure what the diff enclosures are and how to tell them apart, would a picture or two help? i would have to rebuild a enclosure? how come? i have no experience doing this....
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post #18 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 08:41 PM
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Bass-reflex

Also known as vented (or ported) systems, these enclosures improve low-frequency output, increase efficiency, or reduce the size of an enclosure, using cabinet openings or passive radiating elements to transform and transmit low-frequency energy from the rear of the speaker to the listener. They deliberately and successfully exploit the principles of the Helmholtz resonator. As with sealed enclosures, they may be empty, lined, filled or (rarely) stuffed with damping materials. Port tuning frequency is a function of cross-section and length. This enclosure type is very common, and provides the maximum deep-bass output for a given enclosure volume.


Sealed is simply a closed box. No holes other than where the woofer is mounted.

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post #19 of 29 Old 10-12-2012, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

I
He wants to run 4 subs. 2 dual coil subs@4 ohms a coil and 2 single coil subs with 4 ohm coils.
I believe they are in separate enclosures. He is looking for max amount of bass. In my estimation.
It is possible to do it. It will. Require him to pay very careful attention to wiring them up as 2 subs will be receiving less power than the other two. Still ok as long as they are not in the same enclosure. He also needs to confirm what enclosure type is being used.


I would get the ap amp and build a correct enclosure for his two fusion subs and rock the $h!t out of them wired parallel.

the proposed substage of 4 mismatched subs, in 2 boxes, off one amp..that is a hot mess of trouble...highly suggest you not do that


and yes i agree with the last part...run the 2 fusion subs off one amp as your sub bass...say at 50hz and down...

and get a second amp and run the JBL's from 90hz to 60 hz or something....and call is midbass...IDK.

Biut to run all that crap at once off one amp...OYE:rolleyes:

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post #20 of 29 Old 10-12-2012, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah i have no vents/ports so the enclosures are sealed. stuck once again i dont know what to do, what would be the cost of 2 amps rather than the one and what kind do you recommend etc.
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post #21 of 29 Old 10-12-2012, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liftednali View Post

yeah i have no vents/ports so the enclosures are sealed. stuck once again i dont know what to do, what would be the cost of 2 amps rather than the one and what kind do you recommend etc.

lose those crappy MTX audio subs...go back to the Fusion's the way you were and be happy.

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post #22 of 29 Old 10-12-2012, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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with what kind of amp and how many watts?
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post #23 of 29 Old 10-13-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liftednali View Post

with what kind of amp and how many watts?

Have you decided the amp you have is toast? Or was it just shutting down because you had 4 subs hooked to it?

If you need a new amp...it should be around 1200 watts into 2ohms mono...i can suggest one for you if you let me know what your budget is.

I would also lose the cap.

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post #24 of 29 Old 10-14-2012, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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the amp is toast for sure, plus i dont have it anymore. and i would spend maybe around $120 for a new one since its just one but maybe i would go up to $150-160. and alright i can sell my mtxs and the power cap and have a little more money towards a amp
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post #25 of 29 Old 10-14-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

Have you decided the amp you have is toast? Or was it just shutting down because you had 4 subs hooked to it?
If you need a new amp...it should be around 1200 watts into 2ohms mono...i can suggest one for you if you let me know what your budget is.
I would also lose the cap.

If he uses the two fusions why an amp that is 1200 watts at 2 ohms? I mean what is the reasoning?

Unless he wires the two subs for a series parallel wiring scheme, he needs an amp that is one ohm stable. Or one that puts out the most power at four ohms. There is no way he will be able to wire the the two fusion subs for a two ohm load. If he gets a wrong amp that is not capable of handling the load, chances are he will end up smoking another amp.

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post #26 of 29 Old 10-14-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

If he uses the two fusions why an amp that is 1200 watts at 2 ohms? I mean what is the reasoning?
Unless he wires the two subs for a series parallel wiring scheme, he needs an amp that is one ohm stable. Or one that puts out the most power at four ohms. There is no way he will be able to wire the the two fusion subs for a two ohm load. If he gets a wrong amp that is not capable of handling the load, chances are he will end up smoking another amp.

my mistake...If they are DVC 4's then even better..for the OP....i thought they were SVC4's.

If you got this then i wil step out.smile.gif

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post #27 of 29 Old 10-14-2012, 12:09 PM
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No way man! This forum is a group effort.typing on an iPad watching football. So keeping responses short.

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post #28 of 29 Old 10-14-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
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No way man! This forum is a group effort.typing on an iPad watching football. So keeping responses short.

me too...waiting for the pats game to come on and feeling bad for my daughter that her colts can''t get it in gear.

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post #29 of 29 Old 10-14-2012, 12:31 PM
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Pats fan here as well!

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