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post #1 of 31 Old 10-29-2012, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I am looking for a new audio setup in my car. I listen to BASS based music as well as Indian classical. So, my emphasis is on good treble as well as the good oomph effect. My focus is on using up 4 component speakers (SONY XS-GTF16272) to the door.

For the bass effect, I want to setup the amplifier with a 12" sub-woofer. Could you please suggest me an AMP and a SUB that I can go with so that I have the components also connected to the amplifier
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post #2 of 31 Old 10-29-2012, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I mean the Component speakers also connected to the AMP
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post #3 of 31 Old 10-29-2012, 05:57 AM
 
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you need 3-way's up front to bring the details from the subwoofer out again.
it doesnt matter if you've got a hatchback or an SUV or if the soundwave goes through the backseat .. they all have muffled bass because of the soundwaves bouncing off the walls and seats and windows.

you also need new cones for the front because there isnt any dust cap.
you cant expect the cone to push on the air with a hole in the middle.. all of the air will escape down the pole holding the tweeter out the magnet in the back.

if i had the money to do it myself..
i would get a 3-way crossover, a woofer that will fit into the hole that says it can play down to 30hz .. up to whatever the crossover frequency is (or higher) .. then try mounting a dome midrange and a dome tweeter anywhere under the speaker grill.
(even if that means getting some wood and putting some holes through the wood that the screw for the speaker can go through and keep it connected to the speaker .. and i would start with cardboard first because it is readily available and see if that is the best spot for the midrange and tweeter or if it sounds better somewhere else .. but if you are using distance delays, you will want to keep them all in the same place)

there isnt anything better to compliment the bass other than helping the bass with the details being heard.
it is like going from a junk muddy subwoofer to an audiophile subwoofer with lots of details and clarity (you know the ones where people hear it and say that type of clarity is hard to find)


you are running into a problem real quick without seeing it ...
if you get a four channel amplifier for those speakers, the only way to connect the subwoofer to it is to bridge the subwoofer on one side of the amplifier between right and left .. and it really helps to note if the amplifier says it can do that because otherwise the amplifier might go into protect mode or simply die much sooner than usual.

so what is the problem?
well 40 watts per channel is probably only going to be 80 watts for the subwoofer.
if you do both sides of the amplifier for a dual coil sub, that is only 80 watts per coil.
it really isnt much power .. satisfaction usually doesnt happen until about 150 watts , unless you find some generic subwoofer with a really high sensitivity that will output the decibels with the lower power.
and i dont think this is an option that should be ruled out.. because some of the generic subwoofers sound much better than the more expensive 'warehouse' list of subwoofers (alpine, rockford fosgate, kicker, kenwood, pioneer, etc).
no, they dont have audiophile quality.. but sometimes they sound better than one of the above brand names and people just laugh into hysteria because of the money they saved.
the trick is to get some more details out of the subwoofer by using the bass from the front speakers.

the audio industry is asking you to do it right, instead of dropping speakers into the holes and pressing play expecting it all to sound better.
(it sounds different, and usually it is louder.. but audio engineers design the stock systems and they usually sound better if they arent turned up to the point of distortion .. but they always leave room for more loud, sometimes it prevents babies from going hard of hearing because their parents were listening to music in the car too loud .. sometimes it is to help all those after-market audio companies)

they are trying to help..
that is why some of the decent subwoofers are generic brand name and they sound better .. because they want you to save money and see if you will use that extra money to make the system even better.
the first place to look at is what do they do after they throw in a subwoofer?
sure, some of those generic subwoofers die easily when they are running at the RMS level .. but for the person that ran the amp lower than RMS .. they go the distance where brains and wanting it bad enough overpowers the next person with too much money and not enough brains to HELP it all happen .. because they think all of that extra money should help make the whole thing sound perfect .. when in reality, it goes towards making the products last longer through cold or lots of exposure to sun or throwing too many watts at it or running the output to distortion for a long time.
(they pay to care less and continue playing .. compared to the other half of the equation that cares more)

there is a lot of people in this world that knows somebody that would be willing to turn up the volume knob until something starts to distort, and then just leave it there because they are obnoxious enough to want it loud and loud only .. not because they want the speaker to last without needing to be replaced.
i like to think those people are careless fools just itching and scratching to literally pay lots of money to learn from their mistakes .. and maybe one day when they are old and wrinkled they will think back about all the money they wasted and wont make those mistakes anymore .. and maybe they teach other people not to make those same mistakes.


so you are going to need a 5 channel amplifier..?
most likely yes, that is the answer.. because one 12 inch subwoofer needs more than 80 watts to really make an impact.

i've got four speakers running on 15 watts each .. and two twelves running on 150 watts total .. and those subwoofers still dont have enough power to tightly control the cone with enough force to bring out the clarity.
but that is because the voice coils want 600 watts and i'm only feeding it 150.
the gap is really large between 600 and 150 so i cant expect the subwoofers to make solid use from the 150.
i made it happen anyways with time alignment and spatial imaging .. but i'm still needing more watts to get the cones to move and get the details out of the cones .. because each cone is only getting 75 watts.
again.. 300 and 75 is a really big gap.
it does happen, but it is like listening with the volume too low to hear.

i am satisfied somewhat because i didnt have any bass at all in the car before.
and for the $50 for the amp and subwoofer that was given to me .. it was worth it to get them in.
(thinking i could go up from 150 to 250 and probably be happy)

there are a bunch of 5 channel amplifiers.
some of them have 120 or 150 watts per channel.



here are some dome midranges that you could screw into a piece of cardboard or however you want to get it setup next to the midbass:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/hi-vi-dmb-a-2-fabric-dome-midrange/

maybe you can might need to sand the speaker hole a little bit bigger for these:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers/madisound-6102-4-6-polypropylene-cone-woofer/

i dont know how good those sound because i havent heard them .. but they are an example for the principle.
the woofer 'wants to move' at about 30hz .. and that is good for helping bring up the details down to 30hz (maybe less because of the speaker box size inside the door .. but still a valid 'loose' frequency)

the crossover point between woofer and midrange should be 1,000hz .. the other crossover point between 5khz - 7khz
the woofer is 50watts 4 ohms
the midrange is 80 watts 5 ohms
that means you could stay with the same 40 watt speakers in the back and run it off the same amplifier.



if you dont care and just want amplifier suggestions (maybe somebody else will) ..
i seen one from boss, one from power acoustik, one from kenwood
price range was anywhere from $150 - $250
some of them had higher distortion numbers than others.
some of them had higher power values than others.
some of them had a class A/B amplifier for the 4 channel .. and a seperate class D for the subwoofer (the other ones were all class A/B)
some of them had higher signal to noise ratio's than other ones.

simply put ..
if your radio doesnt put out much for voltage from the RCA outputs then you dont want an amplifier with low signal to noise ratio because you wont be amplifying much of the details loudly without a line driver that boosts the RCA voltage.
my amp has a signal to noise ratio in the 70's and when i turn down the subwoofer level, the details disappear.
that tells me the details are getting lost in the lower voltage from the RCA output and the amplifier isnt helping any.

dont waste your time with high distortion amplifiers .. they will be loud, but the details arent any better .. it doesnt matter if you are listening to electronica or classical because the details will be missing/distorted in both.

you should be able to get lots of extra oomph from those front 6.5 inch speakers playing bass.
i had two 6.5 inch speakers in bass reflex boxes in the trunk of my moms car and it would shake the rear view mirror .. and they were at 55 watts each (the woofers are about 100 watts RMS).

it is really beautiful to hear the large bass filling up the vehicle from a subwoofer with some enveloping bass fill from the front speakers.

i just cant emphasize it enough about the extra details heard.
if i had to give a comparison .. it would probably be this..
imagine you are in the bathroom taking a shower or bath in the tub .. and you've got the music blasting in the other room to hear it in the bathroom.
that is like bass coming from the trunk.
then you wire up a speaker with a cord going all the way to the amplifier and you set the speaker inside the bathroom.
that is like listening to the bass from the front speakers.

the space inside the vehicle is small and tight .. those little 6.5 inch cones arent going to fill up the tight space with enough satisfaction compared to a subwoofer added.

the easiest way to put it is this..
the space in the vehicle is tight like a spring that doesnt want to move.
those little 6.5 inch woofers are only going to make that tight spring move so much.
that is why you get the bigger cone from a 12 inch woofer to help (and that is why people buy two 10's or two 12's for more bass) because the bigger cone will force the tight spring to move.
it is the movement of the tight spring that you hear as audio .. and if there is some pressure with the audio, it can make listening more fun too because it is like the audio has more 3D depth.


this boss amplifier has really good specifications on paper .. and 13 people gave it good reviews (one person said the amp broke after a year, but they didnt say what they were doing with the amp)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_11594_Boss-CX1800.html

there is more power than you need for the speakers.
and that means running 60hz through the amplifier with a multimeter to set the voltage to the number of watts you need (so you dont burn up the voice coil)
instructions for that is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suX13VixU5k

200 watts for one 12 is enough to get the tight spring moving .. but maybe one twelve isnt enough.
it really helps if you got a speaker box that is designed to help you instead of set at the same standard 30hz - 40hz boosted tune.
(it should be 20hz - 30hz)


you dont want loud and muddy.
it is better to be less loud and more clear.
i havent heard a large list of subwoofers to tell you exactly what to get.

this subwoofer is getting really good reviews:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1116

i've owned some peerless midranges and i thought they were 'ahead of their time' because they sounded really good.
might as well say they are from a toy chest labled 'audiophile' .. because they were absolutely an improvement over anything i heard in the stores.

the reviewer said the box was tuned for 18hz .. the same as the FS specification.
that that much of a loose wiggle, there should be enough details inbetween to satisfy.


....and for what it is worth,
nobody knows what the speaker sounds like until they've heard it themselves or had an accurate detailed description from somebody that has heard it.
only thing else is the name brand on the speaker and if you've ever heard something else that they've made.. and then assume the quality cant go down too much without ruining the reputation.



the bad thing about mixing bass from rear speakers with the subwoofer ...
well there is the phase difference, that is always one thing.
but then there is also the timing from the speaker .. when they are different, you can clearly here there is the same bass coming from two different speakers.
it is annoying and it is all supposed to blend together.

you could still use the sony's and set the crossover to stop sending bass to the speaker, and that will stop the problem dead in its tracks.


classical is easier to work with without an equalizer than electronica music.. because electronica music demands a flat frequency response more than classical.
funny though, because once the frequency response has been made flat, the classical music will gladly take advantage of it.
but electronica music just doesnt have the same energy when the frequency response has dips and peaks.


sad for some people..
because one person thinks audio is a toy, another person thinks audio is serious.
but even the serious one will get out a calibrated microphone and fix some problems .. and still see the results (although a huge improvement) are still somewhere between toy .. teenager .. and 20 year old.

and if you think throwing in some after-market speakers and amplifiers to make it all louder and sound different than the stock radio is 20 year old (not teenager or toy) .. then you will certainly feel like 60 or 70 years old with the calibrated system.

it is like rolling around with a fresh new college degree that makes you better than thousands of other people .. AND you know you've still got 40-60 years to go back and get another one or two or three.
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post #4 of 31 Old 10-29-2012, 09:56 AM
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What is your budget?

I wasn't sure if you were using 2 sets of those Sony components in your front door or 1 set in front and rear doors.either way, if you already own them they should work for you. I did not look them up so am not sure what the woofer size is so I am unsure if they will keep up with a sub.

For bass heavy music and if you are wanting maximum pressurization, I suggest going with a ported enclosure as that should give you what you want. And should be the easiest to implement vs some exotic design.

As for amplification, I suggest using either a 2 amplifier solution or find a good 5 channel as was earlier recommended. The 5 channel will be easier to wire. The 2 amp will be a bit more complex but definitely doable. A four channel to drive your Sony components and a monobloc amp to drive the sub will give you in my opinion the best capabilities.

If you like the 5 channel Polk audio makes one that is very nice.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_39895_Polk-Audio-PA-D5000.5-PAD5000.5.html

Or look at this massive audio amp

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_27733_Massive-Audio-NX5.html

Those are just 2 options. Both brands have a good following. Much better than the boss or other low end brands.

I run sundown audio in my car. I run 2 four channel amps ( SAX 100.4) and a mono block (SAZ1500d) so I tend to be partial to them. They are what started as a boutique spl brand that has grown with a huge following and excellent customer service. So I really recommend their amps.

Their are dozens of amp brands that will have a model to do what you want. Budget really comes into play

Brands of subwoofer I would look at.
JBL GTO series or the P series.
Sundown Audio E series or preferably the SA series
Alpine type R
Dayton Audio HO


Again I can add a lot more.

End of the day, budget will play more of an impact than anything. are you going to install this yourself?

And I apologize, you won't get any marketing buzz words out of me. I try to deaL with things that can be measured or quantified. I run a 3 way active system with a subwoofer that has a heck of a processor doing all the work. That set up is NOT for everybody. As the saying goes, more speakers... More problems.

Your goals are easily attainable. Once I know a budget and install skill level, I can recommend more options or help narrow down a more complete system?

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
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post #5 of 31 Old 10-29-2012, 11:16 AM
 
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i dont see why the cheaper amplifiers are getting bashed.
and yes, maybe the more expensive options are going to hate what must be said.

think about it like this..
what are the chances of a parent installing a DVD player in the vehicle for the kids to watch movies?
really high..!

therefore, what are the chances the parent will jump on the teenage bandwagon and rip out the old stock system and put in new speakers and amplifier to try and get a better sound .. maybe for themselves, maybe to impress their children, maybe because the stock hardware was really just awful?
again.. really high..!

what are the chances a parent will install a dvd player with 5.1 surround sound and NEED an amplifier for at least the center and subwoofer channels?
not as high, but it does exist..!

what do those things add up to??!
the audio industry simply needs to lay out a net to catch these people from falling.
sure, you might say a clueless person deserves clueless results.. but the children dont deserve those bad results.
and it is the children, as they say.. will be the future generation that replaces everybody, and the only way for them to grow healthy is to avoid bad choices.
the only way to get the bad choices out of the way is to flood the store shelves with products that arent bad.

what does that all add up to??!
the amplifiers need the upgrade to meet DVD audio standards.
there is no if or but or any other excuse.


now think about this..
if you owned a company that solders capacitors and resistors and diodes onto a circuit board because you make a name brand home theater receiver (and a whole bunch of models throughout the whole decade) .. wouldnt it be easier and cheaper to buy MORE of those quality capacitors and resistors, then use the extra ones to build some car audio amplifiers to help the children grow healthy instead of listening to garbage audio of an almost demonic horror that has plagued car audio since around the year 2000 ?
or do you keep forcing the children to eat dirt and then wonder why their body is all skin and bones and isnt healthy as the child is too busy starving to think and cant help another person because they are too weak to help themselves?

if they allowed that to happen, it clearly shows somebody has some power and they arent willing to give it up or share it with anybody else.

so it comes as no surpise to see some of the amplifiers with distortion numbers as low as some home theater receivers.


now here is the next thing to point out.
if you can get a home theater receiver for $300 - $350 ... lets look at what else is inside of that receiver.
things like the dolby decoder, the dts decoder, the time delay, the AM/FM tuner, the digitally controlled volume knob, the large number of inputs (because they all need special preamp engineering), the fact that there is at least FIVE seperate mono amplifiers inside, plus the LED display, plus all the miscellaneous buttons on the front panel, plus the digital controller to process all of that.

why the hell would you spend $300 on an amplifier with those crappy specifications.. all because the amplifier will work with a 1ohm speaker load?
sorry..
i'm not convinced.

same thing with 1ohm speaker voice coils.
why go to the length of wrapping the former with 1ohm wire when there is 10,000 other speakers using 4ohm wire.
suddenly you are going to get the 1ohm wire cheaper ??!

i've seen a few of the generic amplifiers working, and they were being abused with the gain turned up too high.. or the speaker load was the lowest the amplifier would accept.
the funny thing is, those cheap amplifiers worked for 2-3 years before they died from abuse.

and there isnt any 'oh you can watch a movie in the car on saturday when i get everything installed'
only to have the parent go back and say 'you have to wait because i brought something home and it doesnt work'
it doesnt matter if that happens on the day of the install or 6 months down the road .. it is devastating to the child involved.

and that pushes me to being scared myself..
to say something is paid for and working, and then it works with less quality 2-3 years down the road.
it is another strike of devastation for the children involved.

8-10 years is nice .. 10-12 is cute .. 13-15 is sweet.
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post #6 of 31 Old 10-29-2012, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

i dont see why the cheaper amplifiers are getting bashed.
and yes, maybe the more expensive options are going to hate what must be said.
think about it like this..
what are the chances of a parent installing a DVD player in the vehicle for the kids to watch movies?
really high..!
therefore, what are the chances the parent will jump on the teenage bandwagon and rip out the old stock system and put in new speakers and amplifier to try and get a better sound .. maybe for themselves, maybe to impress their children, maybe because the stock hardware was really just awful?
again.. really high..!
what are the chances a parent will install a dvd player with 5.1 surround sound and NEED an amplifier for at least the center and subwoofer channels?
not as high, but it does exist..!
what do those things add up to??!
the audio industry simply needs to lay out a net to catch these people from falling.
sure, you might say a clueless person deserves clueless results.. but the children dont deserve those bad results.
and it is the children, as they say.. will be the future generation that replaces everybody, and the only way for them to grow healthy is to avoid bad choices.
the only way to get the bad choices out of the way is to flood the store shelves with products that arent bad.
what does that all add up to??!
the amplifiers need the upgrade to meet DVD audio standards.
there is no if or but or any other excuse.

Nah... I don't buy this at all.
Take it from me, a parent of 3.... (average) parents have better, more pressing things to worry about than quality dvd playback in the car. I'm fairly unique in this respect because I DO have quality dvd playback in the car (van actually) with big amps, multiple monitors... yadda yadda, but that's only because it's more hobby to me.

Most of my friends however (also parents) either own a vehicle which came with a stock dvd player (which they are quite happy with), or went out and bought a portable player and strap it to the back of the driver's seat on the longer trips.
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post #7 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Pioneer Head Unit AVH-P4490DVD
JBL Component Speakers GTO609C
JBL Sub Woofer GT-X1250T
JBL Rear Speakers GTO-S959
JBL Amp GT-X646

This is what I want to have ...

Is this a good system?
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post #8 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 05:46 AM
 
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unfortunately you are advocating it is okay to let the children be subjected to inferior quality.

you are advocating it is okay to spend an extra $1,000 for a dvd system pre-installed that doesnt peform to the same level of quality that same $1,000 could get by piecing it together yourself.

you are advocating it is okay for a parent to buy one of those tiny dvd players and strap it on the back of the seat with inferior speakers, as well as allowing the situation where the parent is not together in the life of the child while watching the movie.


why on earth would i take it from you when life and math doesnt revolve around you?
first of all..
you are only one person, and you together with the other parent doesnt amount to the economy or the thousands of other situations of people making those purchases (whether it be OEM products or aftermarket products).

you are saying 'hey look at me.. not the placehold that grows the future'

again..
that placehold is catching the situation and using prevention to keep the junk away to literally force people to involve themselves with something better when they reach for a DVD system.

there are only two choices:
1. the market gets flooded with prevention using improved products and nobody has to worry about it
2. the market is flooded with inferior products with only a few improvements to be hunted down and found, and then those situations are allowed to happen with a much higher probability .. causing damages that cant be reversed.
sure.. the child might grow up and find better, but the time spent with the inferior products wont be deleted.. and children are many times too young and 'fresh' for somebody to walk up and say 'hey.. your child doesnt deserve this foul treatment .. buy this one instead'

sad but true..
that is why it is within the responsibility of equality to say all children are innocent and they dont deserve the junk.
why wait for that special moment that says 'your child is MORE than innocent and they dont deserve the junk' ?!!

it is because some people dont care enough about the way their children are being treated by the parent or the products on the store shelves.



slicing the differences between watching movies as a hobby or something to spend time on is a waste of time.
the movie is mental food, and everybody needs mental food .. we also need to eat more than the same food every single day .. because that is when people begin to grow to become what they eat.
(yes.. eating cow every single day for months and months at a time will cause the person's character to mirror the image of a cows personality .. the phrase 'you are what you eat' has stuck around throughout the years because of truth .. not because the fictional story is valuable)

same thing can be said about the quality coming from the speakers.
life will start to become the same quality pouring out of the speakers.
the front end is conscious .. the back end is subconscious (and both of them are considered added weight, its just that conscious weight is like wearing it in front of you .. and the subconscious weight is like wearing it behind you like a backpack)


i simply do not need to hear from a parent to know there are people watching a dvd in the car.
i dont need to hear from a parent to hear the specific choice you made when there are other people out there facing the same menu of choices because the products on the store shelves (or OEM options) are visible to everyone.

you said the choices you made.
but you didnt list anything about agreeing with the same point of care.
in fact, you implied opposite.. and then said you went above and beyond oem services because you are a bit more serious about dvd watching.
you also didnt say if you succeeded or failed.


do you feel i am in the dark without hearing from a parent
or
are you simply stating your anger about the parents getting one of those cheap dvd players with inferior speakers while the parent in the driver seat (or passenger seat) is ignoring what the child is experiencing
?

i think we can agree that some of the OEM services are actually quite good if the person controlling it is willing to nurture the install.
but
i am certain there is better results for the same or less amount of money.

it comes up quite often..
people who simply hand over a wad of cash to have it all done and perfect for them usually get less SOMEWHERE in the process.
....and it is because the economy wants people to get out there and do things themselves, because it is mentally, emotionally, and spiritually healthy.

it is part of the counter-intuitive action that is opposed to the 'get money and pay for life'
because yes.. use your brain and get rewarded still exists.
(true.. the ratio of 'pay for life' to 'use your brain and get rewarded' is heavily lop-sided)


but just like muscles..
if you dont use them, they grow weak.
and weak muscles is something civilization simply cant live with.
people will stop doing good in school .. then they will stop doing good at work .. and the whole system falls down because then the person turns to their neighbor and doesnt do good communicating.
when people are communicating empty, they start to fight and riots break out.
...fighting and rioting mixed with doing bad in school mixed with doing bad at work = large scale riots if the number of people participating is large.
(that amounts to people rioting in downtown of the city)

when the riots are smaller,
people sometimes stop doing good at work, or they take it home and the communication changes.
sometimes 'taking it home' isnt really at home, but when they go to the store or pay bills is where it shows up.


math is a muscle.. and it is a cloud that hangs over the heads of people.
anybody can jump up there and grab the math.
some people arent good at math and they dont know what they are grabbing for when they jump up to grab something.
it really proves to be an epidemic, because a large amount of people are infected with it ... and the economy that parents us isnt teaching the children how to know what to grab for.
.....sure, they teach it in school.. but people get out of highschool and they want more (or they want to do it again), but there isnt any place to find it because it simply doesnt exist when the economy chooses to support something else and something else only.

that is why i look to my neighbor for that missing math, and if it isnt there.. they are advocating it is okay to live without a healthy presence of math.

there is only two things to life:
1. math (the 'why')
2. science (the 'maybe')



something that makes me giggle is when the OEM products improve, and people become satisfied because they can clearly see the OEM products improved .. but when there has been an improvement in after-market products the whole time AND they are getting improvements too .. the entire body of quality is shifting to improvements, but the choice to pick between the low-shelf compared to the high-shelf remains ... and time just keeps on rolling passed as people choose how they spend their money (as well as their time).

picture this..
$90 to get a webcam
there are many to choose from because some of them arent the full $90
and if you dont try to adjust the colors perfect, you might not notice any difference between two of them.
but
if you spent the whole $90 and didnt adjust the colors to perfect ... and another person hunted down a webcam, found out the colors would adjust to perfect, and only spent $60 for the webcam
.....well that person has a better looking webcam and an extra $30 because they did it themselves instead of expecting the extra $30 to help.


or imagine this..
you've got a four-wheeler and you spend extra care to keep the plastic from getting scratched.
then you send the quad to the mechanic and pay for parts and labor, and when you get the four-wheeler back you found a scratch in the plastic because the mechanic didnt use caution to prevent anything from touching the plastic.
because the mechanic thought you were going to take the four-wheeler through mud and it doesnt matter if the plastic gets dirty or scratched.
but to you, the owner, it does matter if the plastic gets scratched .. and now you've wasted the last 3-5 years being extra careful to prevent scratches, and somebody else put a scratch on the plastic.
if you yelled at the mechanic, the ruling is always going to be 'well did you ask them to be extra careful to prevent scratches?'
because if you didnt ask, then they didnt know it was important.
but should the mechanic know a customer might be angry about a scratch? ... yes the mechanic should avoid the chance OR ask before starting to work on it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santosh Jammi View Post

Pioneer Head Unit AVH-P4490DVD
JBL Component Speakers GTO609C
JBL Sub Woofer GT-X1250T
JBL Rear Speakers GTO-S959
JBL Amp GT-X646
This is what I want to have ...
Is this a good system?


two things..
1. those component speakers have a frequency response down to 67hz ... that isnt low enough to help the bass.

2. you shouldnt be expecting a midrange to play the bass frequencies.. they are not headphone speakers, and even though technology has improved.. that doesnt mean the entire store shelves are flooded with new products that can perform both the midrange and the bass.


here is what happens playing midrange and bass at the same time..
the magnet has sparkles of invisible electricity.. you can see this electricity if you sprinkle iron powder (there are some pictures on the internet to see it).
those sparkles touch the voice coil.. and when electricity goes through the voice coil, it reacts with the sparkles from the magnet.
midrange doesnt move the cone back and forth much.
bass moves the cone back and forth a lot.

when the bass causes the cone to move back and forth a lot.. the sparkles from the magnet go up and down the entire voice coil.
a midrange is expected to move the cone very little.
....and that means all of the complex electrical character is in the middle of the voice coil where the sparkles of the magnet are.
no.. the sparkles from the magnet dont always touch the top and the bottom of the voice coil.
when the midrange starts to play bass, the complex electrical wrap in the middle of the voice coil starts to move away from the sparkles from the magnet.
that is why the midrange starts to distort when the speaker plays more bass.

the only way to fix it is to make the top and the bottom of the voice coil electrically complex in character with the middle.
there are only a few options..
you could make it complex in the middle, and then copy the complex at the top and bottom of the voice coil .. but then there is confusion inside the voice coil because it doesnt know which one of the three to use.
...and that means the complex part in the middle needs to be engineered to slide towards the top and the bottom as the cone moves in and out large amounts.

it is true..
some speakers dont sound as good as they possibly can until the cone is moving in and out more, because that is how the voice coil and magnet relationship is engineered.


if you could get one speaker to play the bass and the midrange at the same time without distorting a few bits.
then a seperate speaker playing only the bass will play cleaner, and that speaker will be much more further away from distortion.

yes.. i know i said some speakers sound better the more they move.
but
a midbass speaker is usually only going to go down to 60hz - 100hz at the bottom end.
a woofer is good for the spots a midbass cant get to.

that is why i sent you straight to a woofer and said stop playing with a midbass.

it happens a lot nowadays.. those 2-way speakers are a tweeter and a midrange mixed with a midbass.
they dont have a woofer, and that means people shouldnt expect the speaker to play like the 10inch or 12inch woofer from a floorstanding speaker.
it is like you've got one of those floorstanding speakers and you disconnect the large woofer ... and then somebody said 'hey there isnt any bass at all.. lets give it SOMETHING'
but c'mon .. DUH .... if they wanted bass, they should of connected the woofer again.


another way to look at it is like pushing a vehicle out of gas.
you could say one person is strong enough to do it..
but if another person helps the strong person, it is going to get to the gas station faster .. the first person wont be as tired when they get there.

if you are lucky..
you might find a speaker that will play the midrange and the bass at the same time.. but chances are the speaker is standing with their toes at the edge of a cliff just waiting for some wind to push them over the edge.

most midranges have to play all the way up to 4,000hz - 7,000hz
if you get the chance to hear a test tone at one of those frequencies, you should be able to realize they are very solid and tight .. and they shouldnt be disturbed by the bass throwing the cone in and out .. because it is a really hard note to hold onto.

that is like trying to hold a cup of liquid while riding a rollercoaster without spilling it.
if it is engineered to do it.. the cup will have a lid.
(cups with lids cost more, but that doesnt mean the lid wont leak)


sometimes people say it works and they cant hear any distortion .... but that is only because they havent heard a speaker with less distortion.
when they hear the speaker with less distortion, then they go back to the old stuff they had and say 'i can hear the distortion now'


it isnt uncommon..
think about this,
back in the days when the only television people could buy was a CRT .. some people would get an RCA or magnavox and then they would go to the store and see some of the better picture quality from televisions like sony.
or
maybe they would see some generic television that had a picture quality that was worse than what they had at home.

sometimes it happens when people to go an audio video store and have a listen in the room they setup with a video screen and speakers.
the person hears it and says 'those are better than what i have at home' and when they get home, they can hear a difference.. and maybe they think 'my speakers are old.. but the new ones are too expensive'


you would be good to get some frequency boost at 30hz up front.
some subwoofers arent all that loud at 30hz because of the speaker box they are in.
the bass boost on most amplifiers is stuck at 40hz .. and most people dont need 40hz .. it is usually 30hz or 20hz that needs a boost.

a boost at 50hz from the front speakers is only a tease at how much better it could be.


the boost helps timbre.
what does a subwoofer grow when it leaves the muddy sound behind?
timbre

but that is the thing.
bass can have transients and nuances too.
using the woofer up front helps the transients and nuances (if the speaker outputs nuances,.. it should certainly always output transients)

transients die from going through the backseat.
they die from crashing into the other soundwaves as the soundwave makes its way towards the ears from the rear of the vehicle too.


maybe some people are selling themselves short because they went to a car show and seen one of those vans or cars with a bunch of speakers in the front door.
sometimes those speakers were only midranges, no midbass, no woofer.
sometimes those speakers were midranges and midbass, no woofer.


i am viewing this conversation like bass is your food and you are hungry.
what you set yourself for was a small plate of food without any side dish.
i'm just trying to feed you a meal.
(i've had many meals with only one side dish and i know how much more fun a meal with two side dishes are.. i miss the second side dish way too often and i welcome three or four or five side dishes.)
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I am really sry ... I have nothing against anyone ... I am a noob and I got that config from one of my friends ...

Please forgive me ... I feel so bad now ... All I wanted was to use a geeks experience and get the setup done ... I now understood that I can do it myself by properly understanding the requirements for setting it up myself ...
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i'm confident there is information in my posting that can help you if you decide to keep the speakers you've got or give the ones i suggested a try.


if you get a 5 channel amplifier without a seperate class D amp inside for the subwoofer ..
(first of all, class D amplifiers arent up to speed yet and that means they dont sound as good as class A/B .. but the class A/B does suck up more power and you will need at least a capacitor to help keep the energy in the music full)

i just wonder if those 5 channels share any of the capacitors in any way.
because say you got one with more watts than you need, and you turn down the gain to get the exact RMS voltage for the speaker ... will that extra power make it to the subwoofer output?

(if it does, you might not need a capacitor at all)
but
i think the capacitors will be seperated at the transistors (or before the transistors) and those capacitors might not be on the same input rail.
that means they are seperated because the RCA inputs are seperated.
...maybe you could find an electronic repair shop and get them to connect the subwoofer input with one of the other stereo pairs.

it might not work IF turning down the gain for the main speakers also turns down the voltage to the capacitors.
the trick is..
let the capacitors fill up all the way, and then turn the volume down after the capacitors .. but before the electricity goes to the transistors.
that way.. you could use the extra voltage in the capacitors to keep the subwoofer capacitors from draining near empty.


but really..
the reason why amplifiers need a capacitor is because the power filter capacitors arent big enough, or there isnt enough of them and they keep draining near empty.
and
because the voltage step-up transformer isnt bigger.
(sometimes the pieces are 32 volts and the step-up transformer is 30 or 32volts and you cant go up any higher without swapping out the 32 volt pieces .. and if the whole amplifier board is setup for 32 volts, then a complete rebuild is needed .. or additional power filter capacitors are added)

i havent done my own custom build yet to learn if more power filter capacitors are enough to keep the lights from dimming.
i know it can be possible.. but how many extra, or how big they need to be .. i dont know.
it might be easier to spend about $70 and get a capacitor or one of them energy cells .. like a batcap or kinetik cell.



i always look at these posts like people talking about christmas presents.
yes.. talking about something says they want a christmas present.
everybody could use socks or underwear because they use them every single day.
but there is small room for really extra special gifts that make a person excited or start to cry.


people can put the right type of speaker in the speaker hole and see an improvement over people using 'all in one' solutions.
no.. the final result isnt super audiophile.
for super audiophile.. people go back and grab the same TYPE of speaker and put them in the SAME holes .. but those speakers cost more, and sometimes they need more watts from the amplifier.
(then there is the setting up the equalizer with a calibrated microphone, using any impulse response convolution to help the result, timing alignment, phase adjustments, and then anything special like spatial image processing to help the soundstage become more solid)


you cant go out there and use $30 - $40 speakers and expect to get the same results after doing all that i said above.
but
you could get some $30 - $40 speakers and do what i said above and make it sound better (or just as good) than the person who spent extra $ for the better speakers, but failed to do what i said above.

audiophile speakers are starting to come to the point where the audio heard is a transparent mirrored reflection of what it sounded like exactly when it was recorded.
and the differences between price, the differences between one speaker and another, they all get closer to transparent or further away.
or some are more transparent in this area of the frequency range, and others are more transparent in a different area of the frequency range.

same can be said about transients or nuances.
transparency could be the frequency response, the transient response, the nuance response, or any combination of the three.

it is kinda like seeing a brick wall with missing bricks, and people start to put new bricks into the holes one by one.
the wall isnt complete yet .. but millions of people still dont know what it is like to see the wall yet (with it missing bricks or full)

i imagine there was a lot of car shows in the 1990's (there was in america) .. and i know there was some car audio contests .. but those old systems arent going to be anything compared to today's signal to noise ratios and low distortion numbers and new speaker technology and new computer audio processing.

people will walk by and think wow.. that system would probably cost me $10,000 to bring it home and use it myself.
and they would be totally surpised to hear about how the hardware cost $1,500 .. a laptop .. and whatever audio plugins used.
....and that isnt even factory direct prices..!!!

i imagine a single speaker with absolute raw material costs .. probably less than $2 (or lower, depending on the source of materials)

but that is looking at it like a speaker is only some metal, rubber, fibers.
and then seeing somebody with a huge pot of melted metal, a huge pot of melted rubber, and a huge pile of fibers.

even partsexpress.com is a 'middle-man' for the factory .. even if partsexpress.com owned the factory..!
the only way to really get factory direct prices is to be there when they tape up the box (or before they tape up the box) .. because after that, they've gotta put them in a closet or warehouse.
some warehouses need to pay workers, some need to pay workers and property tax or an electric bill .. and that immediately boosts the price of each thing that goes in and comes out of the warehouse.
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Santosh,

those components will work fine. you have listed a 70 watt per channel by 4 channel amplifier. Are you planning on adding a dedicated subwoofer amp? The subwoofer tube you listed appears not to be amplified.

The speakers you list will also work fine. Anywaypasable appears to be smoking crack. The frequency range on those speakers are perfectly usable. Most people run basic set ups. Let's look at a couple.
Here is a basic 3 way system with subwoofer. Basic crossover points. Would work for anyone. Would most likely keep all speakers playing in the range and bands they were designed to play. Could you get better sound? Sure. By adjusting the crossovers to better fit the speakers capabilities based on the listening demands you are wanting
Subwoofer: 20-80 hertz
Midbass 80-320 hertz
Midrange:320-3000 hertz
tweeter:3000-20000 hertz

2 way with subwoofer
Subwoofer: 20-80 hertz
Midbass/Midrange 80-3000 hertz
tweeter:3000-20000 hertz

Now let's look at the system you have listed.
the front components use a passive crossover network to separate the highs and protect the tweeter. Running that set of speakers using the front highpass crossover built into the amp. 80 hertz is not labeled. Just 32 and 320. So you will have to set by ear. Start with it in the middle or slightly back toward the 32.

Now the 6X9's can play a bit lower. If you are powering them by the rear channels of the amp. you can again listen and determine the best crossover point.

Still not sure if you are getting separate amp for the sub. In my opinion, a monoblock will make you happiest especially if you are wanting to really pound out the lows. If you are not, I would power the components and the 6X9's off the front channels of the amplifier and bridge the rear channels for about 200 watts to the sub. Use the low pass crossover to keep the high frequencies out of the sub. Again, start somewhere in the middle and slowly lower the frequency untill it blends with the front speakers.

This is for Anywaypasible.

Your analogies are terrible.

You spew enough marketing jargon to make any marketer smile.

In the midst of that garbage, there are kernels of accurate info. It's just a shame they are surrounded by so much utter rubbish.
Take this diamond
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

but really..
the reason why amplifiers need a capacitor is because the power filter capacitors arent big enough, or there isnt enough of them and they keep draining near empty.
and
because the voltage step-up transformer isnt bigger.
(sometimes the pieces are 32 volts and the step-up transformer is 30 or 32volts and you cant go up any higher without swapping out the 32 volt pieces .. and if the whole amplifier board is setup for 32 volts, then a complete rebuild is needed .. or additional power filter capacitors are added)

i havent done my own custom build yet to learn if more power filter capacitors are enough to keep the lights from dimming.
i know it can be possible.. but how many extra, or how big they need to be .. i dont know.
it might be easier to spend about $70 and get a capacitor or one of them energy cells .. like a batcap or kinetik cell.

You do know that most dimming is because the voltage regulator of the alternator can't rapidly keep up with the constantly changing demand from an amplifier playing music. You want to add a capacitor? add it next to the lights where i will do the most good. Now if you are running serious power and the music of preference is bass heavy, loud, and you get a constant dim (like a brown out) then one should consider doing an electrical upgrade. But only after using a DMM to determine what the voltage drop/sag is.dropping to 12.5 or under volts would be a reason to upgrade.

As for speakers, I surely can buy 30-40 dollar or even less speakers and get equal to or better results than a "car audio" branded driver. Heck in a lot of cases, your high dollar car audio driver is a rebranded raw home driver. I know of a gent who won best of show in a local event. He used the Aura close out woofers for 9 bucks each, a vifa ring radiator tweeter and a Dayton HO 10" sub. Under $250 dollars in speaker. 160 or so was the sub.

Your thoughts on class D amps are so outdated it's laughable. Some of the best sounding comp cars use ALL class D amplification. And why not? sonic-ally indistinguishable. Smaller package, more efficient. Makes sense really. The pro audio world have been using Class D for a long time. for those very reasons. That same tech has filtered to the home audio world and the car audio world.

I am scared you are going to next recommend directional RCA cables with silver conductors. Or burned in speaker cables....

Come on man, a lot of your advice is not relevant and a lot of cases pure bias, opinion or just wrong. I probably should have PM'd this but I could not take anymore.

Give a look at bcae1.com

A fantastic place to learn basic car audio. A treasure of resource material.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Santosh,
there are kernels of accurate info.

I surely can buy 30-40 dollar or even less speakers and get equal to or better results

next recommend directional RCA cables with silver conductors. Or burned in speaker cables....

a lot of your advice is not relevant and a lot of cases pure bias, opinion or just wrong.

this boy or girl wont be wasting my time anymore.
it kinda sounds like they were one of the people to drive the car or van full of speakers in the door home from the car show, and they would adjust the midbass crossover point from 80hz down to something lower .. and thus they know exactly what i am talking about when i said 'tease'

i dont think hiding thanks inside a slew of rude abuse is acceptable here, because directional RCA cables will do more harm than bidirectional cables .. since bidirectional cables allow more nuances - thus improved sonic character.
...and i already know about solid core wire compared to multi-stranded wire.


i'm not impressed or convinced about class D amplifiers either.
the controllers that have been on the market are inferior .. just like standard definition televisions while people were beta testing high resolution pixels in secret.
it is the same time of day when something exists and it could be a whole lot better but the company that slaps their name on the product didnt make it perfect and they are relying on somebody with some knowledge about why it is wrong to step in and make the controller better.
....and my guess is, the people successful enough to make an improved controller will run the improvements until they hit the limit of the capacitors or the transistors.

anybody adding a capacitor next to the lights instead of the amplifier isnt realizing the amplifier is sucking on the power cord and not getting satisfied.
the vacuum created is shown when the lights dim.
put the capacitor near the amplifier and the amp gets some power filtering, as well as some electricity when it sucks on the power cord instead of collapsing the straw.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

this boy or girl wont be wasting my time anymore.
it kinda sounds like they were one of the people to drive the car or van full of speakers in the door home from the car show, and they would adjust the midbass crossover point from 80hz down to something lower .. and thus they know exactly what i am talking about when i said 'tease'
i dont think hiding thanks inside a slew of rude abuse is acceptable here, because directional RCA cables will do more harm than bidirectional cables .. since bidirectional cables allow more nuances - thus improved sonic character.Show me a triple blind test that is done by a reputable independant lab that proves this.
...and i already know about solid core wire compared to multi-stranded wire.
i'm not impressed or convinced about class D amplifiers either.
the controllers that have been on the market are inferior .. just like standard definition televisions while people were beta testing high resolution pixels in secret.
it is the same time of day when something exists and it could be a whole lot better but the company that slaps their name on the product didnt make it perfect and they are relying on somebody with some knowledge about why it is wrong to step in and make the controller better.
....and my guess is, the people successful enough to make an improved controller will run the improvements until they hit the limit of the capacitors or the transistors.
anybody adding a capacitor next to the lights instead of the amplifier isnt realizing the amplifier is sucking on the power cord and not getting satisfied.
the vacuum created is shown when the lights dim.
put the capacitor near the amplifier and the amp gets some power filtering, as well as some electricity when it sucks on the power cord instead of collapsing the straw.

Here is what I was talking about. in bold. THAT is what a capacitor will do for you. If you are having such large issues as dimming AND you add a cap, the dimming suddenly stops. WHY? because suddenly the voltage drop is taken up by the cap. So instead of going from 14 volts to 13 which will cause noticeable dimming, the cap allows the alternators voltage reg to catch up.


And yeah, I came across as an ass. but I seriously despise marketing talk. And sir, you dish it out in spades. Like your response to the directional RCA's.. I wanted to pull my hair out. And I got a lot to pull!!!. It makes no difference sonically. If it adds or takes away from the signal and is audible, you don't want it. Sorry I was an ass. I really don't do that often.

Wanna know what product will probably over time cause the most damage to the audiophile groups? the Omnimic. An all in one easy to use tool to measure frequency response and a lot of other things. I suggest using it or something else to measure before and after changes. Don't let psycho acoustics sway the reality. And I get it. We are two different types of people. Brand names in my guestimation impress you. Not so me. I am more frugal in that regard. I don't care about brand unless I am concerned about lifespan of the item or the performance just out and out dictates the cost... Like Scan-Speak.

And who cares if Santosh uses a car full of subs and a single tweeter. SQ is relative. What you think sounds good may not be what he does. And what I like may sonically offend you and Santosh.
If he likes dubstep, rap, hiphop, DNB or any other music of that type, then a small 3 way with a 10 inch sub in a sealed enclosure and 300 total watts is not going to make him happy. Likewise Take my son's system, 3000 watts on 2 12" subs, a set of 6" components and a set of 6X9's and in most music YOU probably won't like it. But I will bet a dime to a dollar Santosh would love it.

Or mine, I run 2 sets of 8" midbass, a set of 4" midrange, planar tweeters and a 15" sub in a single reflex bandpass. 2500 total watts. Well processed.Not quite as loud on the termlab as my son's (I do a 144 sealed on the dash he does a 149), but the difference in response tackles the reproduction of the blues and rock I listen to while when I demo a dubstep or rap song puts a grin on any highschooler's face. I gave up some bass to get a better blend. I dare say you would enjoy the experience. Do I compete? nope. I like a concert experience. I probably could tune my car to compete in SQ but why bother. I am happy with my system and except for the couple of swaps to see what would happen, my stereo has been unchanged for 5 years now almost 6. Class D on the sub. Class AB on the rest. Will I change to Class D on the not sub speakers? You bet, as soon as I can sell my 2 four channel amps.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Here is what I was talking about. in bold. THAT is what a capacitor will do for you. If you are having such large issues as dimming AND you add a cap, the dimming suddenly stops. WHY? because suddenly the voltage drop is taken up by the cap. So instead of going from 14 volts to 13 which will cause noticeable dimming, the cap allows the alternators voltage reg to catch up.

That actually may or may not be true under varying circumstances. I have never been a big believer in caps and this is why;

While it is true that a cap will store a charge and then release that charge in the case of a voltage drop (thereby temporarily making up for any quick and short voltage drops), it is also true that a cap is basically seen as a short circuit which drinks a stupidly high amperage for the majority of its RECHARGE time

The bottom line is that a cap needs to be PROPERLY sized to be of any benefit at all or you could end up with an even bigger light dimming problem. In fact a cap which is sized too big will end up ROBBING power from the amp while it's recharging.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post


anybody adding a capacitor next to the lights instead of the amplifier isnt realizing the amplifier is sucking on the power cord and not getting satisfied.
the vacuum created is shown when the lights dim.
put the capacitor near the amplifier and the amp gets some power filtering, as well as some electricity when it sucks on the power cord instead of collapsing the straw.

Dimming lights is more of a regulator problem than anything else. The REAL power comes from your battery which is about 12.5 volts fully charged. LOTS of power there for even the larger amps. Heck... you can even use a car battery as a power source for welding (which I have done before). However if an alternator is pumping out 14.2 volts (which is not uncommon with cheap regulators) then your amps are seeing a higher voltage than what your battery can pump out. Typical alternators are only 80 to 100 amps and with the lights and other accessories on it doesn't take a lot of heavy beats on the drums to drop that voltage from 14.2 (what the alternator is putting out) down to battery voltage (about 12.5 volts). Assuming of course all your wiring is of the proper gauge and your battery is good, there is no way even a larger amp can drop the voltage below the battery level. So that dimming you see is simply the difference of the alternator output and the battery voltage (in this particular case it would be about 2 volts)

If you're really serious about nipping the dimming lights issue then forget the cap and invest in a voltage regulator that better matches the actual voltage of your battery.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santosh Jammi View Post

I am really sry ... I have nothing against anyone ... I am a noob and I got that config from one of my friends ...
Please forgive me ... I feel so bad now ... All I wanted was to use a geeks experience and get the setup done ... I now understood that I can do it myself by properly understanding the requirements for setting it up myself ...

i think you need to disregard everything that was said by the poster anwaypasable.....i have not figured him out yet, but he has some reason for taking a simple question and then writing 15 paragraph of almost unreadable rhetoric.

I don't think hes doing it to be mean...i think he just likes to write ...alot....LOL.

On the other hand...Cubdano...is very knowledgeable...just stick with his suggestions and you should be able to find an answer.

I hesitate to get involved here ....but if i can help..i will.

Tim

Tim
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post #18 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

unfortunately you are advocating it is okay to let the children be subjected to inferior quality.
.

Wow.
Just wow!

I think you're blowing things a bit out of proportion.

If you want "inferior quality" then have a look at the stock am radio found in an older 60's or 70's car, or the 8 track tape decks we used to strap in under the dash. Gosh, I remember those things changing tracks right in the middle of a song! The stock stuff which comes in a car today isn't so bad at all. It's certainly not high end after market quality, but it's light years ahead of the older stock stuff I grew up with.
Aside from that, my 8 year old kid doesn't give a rats rear end about quality, screen size, subwoofer diameter, peek watts vs rms.... etc. She just wants to watch a movie.
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in fact, you implied opposite.. and then said you went above and beyond oem services because you are a bit more serious about dvd watching.
you also didnt say if you succeeded or failed.
Yes, I am indeed satisfied with what I have now. My wife however (an average parent) didn't understand why I went to all the extra expense when a stock dvd player already came with the van. So I'll say it again... most parents have more pressing things to worry about than high quality sound/video systems in cars and are quite satisfied with the stock systems.
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post #19 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 06:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

That actually may or may not be true under varying circumstances. I have never been a big believer in caps and this is why;
While it is true that a cap will store a charge and then release that charge in the case of a voltage drop (thereby temporarily making up for any quick and short voltage drops), it is also true that a cap is basically seen as a short circuit which drinks a stupidly high amperage for the majority of its RECHARGE time
The bottom line is that a cap needs to be PROPERLY sized to be of any benefit at all or you could end up with an even bigger light dimming problem. In fact a cap which is sized too big will end up ROBBING power from the amp while it's recharging.

we cant debate about capacitors being too small or too big because we dont get to choose the value of the capacitor other than the farads.
if it takes a lot to recharge it, the capacitor is simply inefficient.
if 1 farad isnt enough, up to 2 farads and if 2 isnt enough up to three until the drop is fixed.

one needs to ask themselves if the capcitors are junk or if the amplifier is sucking up the stupid amount of electricity.

batteries store electricity.
warm up the car and let the thing charge and let it charge again before turning the car off.
if the thing goes dead while you are driving around listening to music, then the storage capacity of the capacitor is simply too small.

talking about the product in a hit or miss fashion ... those words are for a miss situation.

and if the voltage regulator is adjusting amperage.. then the kick from the woofer will get the electricity from the stored electricity and then the voltage regulator can adjust to fill up the storage.
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post #20 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Wow.
Just wow!
I think you're blowing things a bit out of proportion.
If you want "inferior quality" then have a look at the stock am radio found in an older 60's or 70's car, or the 8 track tape decks we used to strap in under the dash. Gosh, I remember those things changing tracks right in the middle of a song! The stock stuff which comes in a car today isn't so bad at all. It's certainly not high end after market quality, but it's light years ahead of the older stock stuff I grew up with.
Aside from that, my 8 year old kid doesn't give a rats rear end about quality, screen size, subwoofer diameter, peek watts vs rms.... etc. She just wants to watch a movie.
Yes, I am indeed satisfied with what I have now. My wife however (an average parent) didn't understand why I went to all the extra expense when a stock dvd player already came with the van. So I'll say it again... most parents have more pressing things to worry about than high quality sound/video systems in cars and are quite satisfied with the stock systems.

i didnt have to blow anything.
the simple fact that it wasnt supported is enough of a void to stare at.

while your 8 year old might not care about those things .. placing the child in the situation isnt the childs responsibility.
that is like saying you fed your 4 year old a cheese and ketchup sandwhich, but the kid doesnt care how it tastes.
it isnt the child that cooks the food or knows what to eat .. it is the parents responsibility to make certain the nutritional food gets inside to help the body grow up healthy and strong.

going back to audio.
if you didnt care and the child didnt care.. then there is a bigger probability the child wont care again when they put audio in their own vehicle.
if you did care and you didnt bother to tell the child just how special it was, the child could still hear it and compare the system listened to at the store and come to realize it isnt much better than the system you installed.
with those memories, the child could simply say 'i heard this quality 10-15 years ago .. where are the improvements that come with time and advanced technology?'
and that would help the child walk away from nasty walmart or best buy speakers and hunt down something with more clarity.


if you havent yet done this.. i suggest you get a calibrated microphone and calibrate the equalizer with pink noise, because then there will be something there worth remembering besides a flashy amplifier with a pretty LED light bulb installed.
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post #21 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

we cant debate about capacitors being too small or too big because we dont get to choose the value of the capacitor other than the farads.
That's how caps are sized... by the farad. Big caps run into the farads while little ones are measure in Milli and micro farads.
Quote:
if it takes a lot to recharge it, the capacitor is simply inefficient.
Electrolytic caps are what is used in this circumstance and ALL electrolytic caps are inefficient compared to say... a tantalum cap. Tantalum caps however would be insanely expensive at that size. Electrolitic caps also ALL have the same charge charicteristic to them. They're pretty much considered a short for more than half the recharge.

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if 1 farad isnt enough, up to 2 farads and if 2 isnt enough up to three until the drop is fixed.
You're not getting it. The bigger the cap then the more recharge time and current is required.
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one needs to ask themselves if the capcitors are junk or if the amplifier is sucking up the stupid amount of electricity.
Once again, an amp doesn't have to suck up a lot of power to dim lights. All it needs to do is suck up the DIFFERENCE between the regulator voltage output and the battery. If that voltage difference is big enough (a couple of volts is all it takes) then you will see dimming as the supply voltage drops from regulator voltage down to battery voltage.
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batteries store electricity.
warm up the car and let the thing charge and let it charge again before turning the car off.
if the thing goes dead while you are driving around listening to music, then the storage capacity of the capacitor is simply too small.
HUH??? What the heck are you talking about?? You don't seem to understand that a cap needs to be recharged after it discharges. In other words it's as much a DRAIN on the system as it is a supply for it.
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and if the voltage regulator is adjusting amperage.. then the kick from the woofer will get the electricity from the stored electricity and then the voltage regulator can adjust to fill up the storage.
Voltage regulators do adjust amperage to a CERTAIN extent, but for the most part they are called VOLTAGE regulators because they regulate VOLTAGE.

I'll try and explain this again for you.
Your main power source while the vehicle is running is the alternator. But your average stock alternator only puts out 80 to 100 amps. So if that alternator is running at say... 14.2 volts and a drum beat suddenly sucks up everything thing alternator has to offer then the line voltage will drop. But it will ONLY drop to the same voltage at which the battery is at because the battery then starts taking over the job at dishing out the extra amperage needed. The dimming that you see is therefore the DIFFERENCE between what the voltage was at normal alternator output and the battery voltage. So if you buy a regulator that holds the alternator output more closely to the actual battery voltage, then the difference between alternator output and battery voltage will be small enough to go unrecognized (no dimming) when the alternator gets maxed out and battery voltage has to temporarily take over.
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post #22 of 31 Old 10-30-2012, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

i didnt have to blow anything.
the simple fact that it wasnt supported is enough of a void to stare at.
while your 8 year old might not care about those things .. placing the child in the situation isnt the childs responsibility.
that is like saying you fed your 4 year old a cheese and ketchup sandwhich, but the kid doesnt care how it tastes.
it isnt the child that cooks the food or knows what to eat .. it is the parents responsibility to make certain the nutritional food gets inside to help the body grow up healthy and strong.
going back to audio.
if you didnt care and the child didnt care.. then there is a bigger probability the child wont care again when they put audio in their own vehicle.
if you did care and you didnt bother to tell the child just how special it was, the child could still hear it and compare the system listened to at the store and come to realize it isnt much better than the system you installed.
with those memories, the child could simply say 'i heard this quality 10-15 years ago .. where are the improvements that come with time and advanced technology?'
and that would help the child walk away from nasty walmart or best buy speakers and hunt down something with more clarity.
if you havent yet done this.. i suggest you get a calibrated microphone and calibrate the equalizer with pink noise, because then there will be something there worth remembering besides a flashy amplifier with a pretty LED light bulb installed.

I won't bother comment further on this bag of silliness
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post #23 of 31 Old 10-31-2012, 12:08 PM
 
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i appreciate what you said about the simplistic fact of the voltage drop.
but there wasnt enough simple fact there to really get down to finalizing the concept.

yes.. if the amplifier sucks the alternator amperage down until the extra voltage is all gone and the whole system starts to run on the battery voltage .. the lights will dim.
yes.. a capacitor needs recharging.

NO.. the entire vehicle doesnt need to run off the alternator if there is enough voltage stabilization from the stored energy banks.
we all need to think electronics come with banks of capacitors for power filters..!
those power filters are for the same exact voltage drops.

get all that voltage stability running from the capacitors and the engine and the rest of the vehicle will run on those capacitors while the alternator does the job to fill up the capacitors.
the caps keep the voltage high and the lights dont dim because there isnt any drop in voltage.

now if you say the capacitors will leech off the battery when the 40-80 amps from the alternator isnt enough.. and then the alternator needs to fill up the the battery or the capacitor and the battery .... again, that is because of inefficient charging.

if the whole system including the electronics of the vehicle brings the cap down to 50% .. but that last remaining 50% has enough charge to keep the voltage up .. the only question is how much stress is the alternator seeing.

an experienced installer should pick the right hardware for the alternator to work without dieing from abuse.
and if the experienced installer cant find the hardware, that simply means it isnt on the market yet .. and if we are the chemist that can build something better at home, it isnt our fault.
if the capacitor manufacturers dont care about the stock alternator dieing from abuse, then it would be their fault for allowing the alternator to die.


i dont think you should be selling chemistry short.
there isnt any reason to say 12 volts in cant produce 16 volts out .. because it implies mother nature isnt sophisticated enough to allow it, when in fact she is.

you or somebody else might push conflict until the person gets out there with an amperage meter connected to see what has the bigger amperage draw .. the amplifier all by itself compared to the amplifier with a capacitor installed.
but some of us know it isnt always about the amperage numbers, sometimes it is about the clock (or rate of speed) the electrons are requested.

the experiment is .. lets say 40 amps of suction with all of the electrons lined up wrong .. compared to 80 or 120 amps of suction with all of the electrons lined up perfectly.
satisfaction causes rest .. and some people might be shocked to realize the 40 amp situation causes the alternator to die much earlier than the 80 or 120 amp situation.
and that also goes to say something about the capacitor.
are the electrons in synchronization and that causes maximum efficiency from the capacitor?
or does the capacitor become forced into maximum efficiency when the electrons are out of sync?
one would think the capacitor will see a shortened life-span one way compared to the other .. but the thing to laugh at is how efficient it was performing before it died.
kinda like saying 3-6 years of heaven (cap broke) compared to 13 years of hell (cap was taken out and sold).

the amperage gauge probably wont say anything about the speed or clock of the electrons.
one might check the output of the capacitor to see the clock, but maybe the input is different.


i dont see why people are tense about installing a capacitor.
some should be tense about those that install one capacitor and dont check to see how much voltage jumping is remaining .. because maybe another smaller capacitor could help stiffen the voltage ... and yes, maybe another capacitor might be more load on the alternator than what it is worth.

angry about people driving blind-folded or their hand over their eyes is certainly something valid to be angry about.
but some people prefer to stay blind, while other people simply grow exhausted from being blinded.
we should be here talking about the reward and satisfaction from being able to see.. not closely resembling a statement that deters people from improving their quality of life.
because when the quality of life is low.. those people wont be there to help their neighbor.
they dont help another person because they are too worried about helping themselves.
and they wont help themselves because they are too worried about their neighbors quality of life.
...as for me, i see people bringing home new toys off the store shelves and i can still see their quality of life is low

some people say if the person couldnt see the complaint, then there wasnt any complaint there to be said.
other people say if the person didnt say anything about the complaint, that doesnt mean the person didnt see the complaint.


but i think it is good we had this conversation, because no matter if they use the speakers they first spoke of.. or if they get the suggested speakers, the amplifier is still going to need something to keep the voltage from bouncing up and down.

something that needs to be said..
when you heard the amplifier will suck up the extra voltage from the alternator and it brings the voltage number down to what the battery runs at .. you might of thought the amplifier got the energy to put a thump to the woofer.
but in reality..
the high 14 volts would begin to satisfy the amplifier .. but maybe not for the entire duration of the note.
...maybe the first half of the energy came from the 14 volts from the alternator .. and the other half of the note came from the 12 volts from the battery.
you can see for yourself.. there are a lot of amplifiers that claim different wattage output between 12 volts and 14 volts.
if the note drops down 20% - 30% in decibels halfway through playing the note .. then that sounds like something different than what the music is really saying.

one easy way to look at music is..
it is volume that goes up and down the frequency response, and then each of those frequencies goes up and down in volume .. and that is the most simple way to do it.
if the voltage is causing the amplifier to create new FALSE up and down volume .. well that is like new music or a new piano key being struck.

it is just another one of the ways people upgrade something and they hear new things in the audio that they never-ever heard before.
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post #24 of 31 Old 10-31-2012, 01:21 PM
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Dear Lord.

I am assuming he has put me on the ignore list but since I can read his responses, I have to say again, while there are some correct bits in that last post, most of it is wrong.

Unfortunately I have a Halloween parade to watch so am leaving right now. I may end up doing what tundrsq is doing and staying out of this. But again, so much is just not correct.

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post #25 of 31 Old 10-31-2012, 04:08 PM
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Dear Lord.
I am assuming he has put me on the ignore list but since I can read his responses, I have to say again, while there are some correct bits in that last post, most of it is wrong.
Unfortunately I have a Halloween parade to watch so am leaving right now. I may end up doing what tundrsq is doing and staying out of this. But again, so much is just not correct.

i reported him to the mods....its just ridiculous that he rambles on for 6 paragraphs about nothing....and the OP is not only not being helped, but he is upset and ready to pack it in.

He blocked me too BTW.

Tim
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post #26 of 31 Old 10-31-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

i appreciate what you said about the simplistic fact of the voltage drop.
but there wasnt enough simple fact there to really get down to finalizing the concept.
yes.. if the amplifier sucks the alternator amperage down until the extra voltage is all gone and the whole system starts to run on the battery voltage .. the lights will dim.
yes.. a capacitor needs recharging.
NO.. the entire vehicle doesnt need to run off the alternator if there is enough voltage stabilization from the stored energy banks.
we all need to think electronics come with banks of capacitors for power filters..!
those power filters are for the same exact voltage drops.
get all that voltage stability running from the capacitors and the engine and the rest of the vehicle will run on those capacitors while the alternator does the job to fill up the capacitors.
the caps keep the voltage high and the lights dont dim because there isnt any drop in voltage.
now if you say the capacitors will leech off the battery when the 40-80 amps from the alternator isnt enough.. and then the alternator needs to fill up the the battery or the capacitor and the battery .... again, that is because of inefficient charging.
if the whole system including the electronics of the vehicle brings the cap down to 50% .. but that last remaining 50% has enough charge to keep the voltage up .. the only question is how much stress is the alternator seeing.
an experienced installer should pick the right hardware for the alternator to work without dieing from abuse.
and if the experienced installer cant find the hardware, that simply means it isnt on the market yet .. and if we are the chemist that can build something better at home, it isnt our fault.
if the capacitor manufacturers dont care about the stock alternator dieing from abuse, then it would be their fault for allowing the alternator to die.
i dont think you should be selling chemistry short.
there isnt any reason to say 12 volts in cant produce 16 volts out .. because it implies mother nature isnt sophisticated enough to allow it, when in fact she is.
you or somebody else might push conflict until the person gets out there with an amperage meter connected to see what has the bigger amperage draw .. the amplifier all by itself compared to the amplifier with a capacitor installed.
but some of us know it isnt always about the amperage numbers, sometimes it is about the clock (or rate of speed) the electrons are requested.
the experiment is .. lets say 40 amps of suction with all of the electrons lined up wrong .. compared to 80 or 120 amps of suction with all of the electrons lined up perfectly.
satisfaction causes rest .. and some people might be shocked to realize the 40 amp situation causes the alternator to die much earlier than the 80 or 120 amp situation.
and that also goes to say something about the capacitor.
are the electrons in synchronization and that causes maximum efficiency from the capacitor?
or does the capacitor become forced into maximum efficiency when the electrons are out of sync?
one would think the capacitor will see a shortened life-span one way compared to the other .. but the thing to laugh at is how efficient it was performing before it died.
kinda like saying 3-6 years of heaven (cap broke) compared to 13 years of hell (cap was taken out and sold).
the amperage gauge probably wont say anything about the speed or clock of the electrons.
one might check the output of the capacitor to see the clock, but maybe the input is different.
i dont see why people are tense about installing a capacitor.
some should be tense about those that install one capacitor and dont check to see how much voltage jumping is remaining .. because maybe another smaller capacitor could help stiffen the voltage ... and yes, maybe another capacitor might be more load on the alternator than what it is worth.
angry about people driving blind-folded or their hand over their eyes is certainly something valid to be angry about.
but some people prefer to stay blind, while other people simply grow exhausted from being blinded.
we should be here talking about the reward and satisfaction from being able to see.. not closely resembling a statement that deters people from improving their quality of life.
because when the quality of life is low.. those people wont be there to help their neighbor.
they dont help another person because they are too worried about helping themselves.
and they wont help themselves because they are too worried about their neighbors quality of life.
...as for me, i see people bringing home new toys off the store shelves and i can still see their quality of life is low
some people say if the person couldnt see the complaint, then there wasnt any complaint there to be said.
other people say if the person didnt say anything about the complaint, that doesnt mean the person didnt see the complaint.
but i think it is good we had this conversation, because no matter if they use the speakers they first spoke of.. or if they get the suggested speakers, the amplifier is still going to need something to keep the voltage from bouncing up and down.
something that needs to be said..
when you heard the amplifier will suck up the extra voltage from the alternator and it brings the voltage number down to what the battery runs at .. you might of thought the amplifier got the energy to put a thump to the woofer.
but in reality..
the high 14 volts would begin to satisfy the amplifier .. but maybe not for the entire duration of the note.
...maybe the first half of the energy came from the 14 volts from the alternator .. and the other half of the note came from the 12 volts from the battery.
you can see for yourself.. there are a lot of amplifiers that claim different wattage output between 12 volts and 14 volts.
if the note drops down 20% - 30% in decibels halfway through playing the note .. then that sounds like something different than what the music is really saying.
one easy way to look at music is..
it is volume that goes up and down the frequency response, and then each of those frequencies goes up and down in volume .. and that is the most simple way to do it.
if the voltage is causing the amplifier to create new FALSE up and down volume .. well that is like new music or a new piano key being struck.
it is just another one of the ways people upgrade something and they hear new things in the audio that they never-ever heard before.

I'm terribly sorry, but I'm at a total loss at how to even begin to reply to this. I'll just simply say that I disagree with just about all of it and leave it at that.
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post #27 of 31 Old 10-31-2012, 06:50 PM
 
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at 40 watts per channel = 160
200 watts for the sub = 200
total = 360 watts

my lights dim at 150 watts and i've got the bigger alternator .. i think it's 120 or 140 or 160 amps .. compared to the smaller 80 or 90 or 100 amp.
i think your lights will dim too without something .. and if they dont, you are lucky.. but you might still see some longevity (or sound quality improvements) if you helped the voltage fluctuations.

we are here to talk.
that person wont be bothering me anymore.

even if you stick to those sony speakers..
something i would find curious:
what if you had a look at the speakers and seen there was a crossover for the tweeter, but nothing for the midrange?
i'd like to see if there are any improvements by disconnecting the tweeter, and then connecting each one to a 2-way crossover.
because the 2-way crossover will stop the treble from going to the midrange cone .. maybe it frees up some of the work the voice coil is doing and brings more clarity from the speaker.
but that is as much as i can say about it if you do use those speakers and just get an amp and subwoofer.
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post #28 of 31 Old 10-31-2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

i reported him to the mods....its just ridiculous that he rambles on for 6 paragraphs about nothing....and the OP is not only not being helped, but he is upset and ready to pack it in.
He blocked me too BTW.

I was curious so looked at other posts and discovered he is the same on other topics. In fact I saw he utilized one of his analogies he used here on another topic. He also receives about the same responses.biggrin.gif

Hopefully the OP has not been run off.

I found it funny that he sent a PM to tell me I was being put on his ignore list. I apologized that I hurt his feelings but told him if it had to be then I wouldn't lose any sleep.wink.gif

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post #29 of 31 Old 11-01-2012, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

I found it funny that he sent a PM to tell me I was being put on his ignore list. I apologized that I hurt his feelings but told him if it had to be then I wouldn't lose any sleep.wink.gif
LOL! I guess I'm now joining your club. My PM highlighted "defamation" and "negligence" as reasons for the ignore list.

Bizarre is the only word which comes to mind!
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post #30 of 31 Old 11-01-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

LOL! I guess I'm now joining your club. My PM highlighted "defamation" and "negligence" as reasons for the ignore list.
Bizarre is the only word which comes to mind!

Obviously I am a worse monster.biggrin.gif:p Here is what he had listed:

assault
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault

defamation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

negligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

harassment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment

mental|emotional battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(tort)

I laughed so hard, I had to show my wife as she was wondering why I was laughing. Then I showed her his posts and mine... A good time!!

Glad I am not the only one!!

The funny thing is, I CAN come across as kind of a jack@$$ because I HATE to type. And if I do or have I will be the first to apologize. Hell it's why I give out my number to so many on here. Easier to explain what I am trying to get across.

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