Most amount of power with least amount of mods - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 7 Old 04-14-2013, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I was looking into purchasing two 12" HCCA Orion sub woofers and noticed that they are 2000 Watt RMS/4000 Watt Peak (Also, if anybody knows a price on these, please inform me). Would this amplifier work for these sub woofers? If not, what size amplifier would I have to use? I want to make sure there is enough power going to the sub woofers plus a little extra so I don't max the amp out and push its death closer with every pound.

What size amp would I need to power two of these beasts if the 5000 watt amp is overkill?
Would I need to install a new alternator and/or battery?
At what amount of power would I need to install a new alternator?

I am having that guy that builds boxes (Can't think of the website or his name at the moment) build me one and I am hoping I will have the loudest sub woofers in town.
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post #2 of 7 Old 04-15-2013, 05:04 AM
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you probably need two of those amps...one for each driver to max them out. And that will require about another $1000 in electrical upgrades. You sure you are up for this? You really want to spend $5 grand on 2 12's? What else are you going to use to balance out the lows?

Tim
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post #3 of 7 Old 04-15-2013, 11:12 AM
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Good luck finding them first. or rather easily find them. I would check the sonics and woofersetc out there. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_18016_Orion-HCCA122.html

Secondly, TundrSQ is 1000% correct on the electrical upgrades. You are talking adding batteries as in multiple and at least one HO alternator.

If you can get the sub in dual 4 ohm coil configs then a single amp will make it easy, otherwise you are looking at a high power at 2 ohm amp like a JBL GTO line or others.

If the dual 2 ohm coil is the only way you can get this sub, and you are going to run 2 of them, look at running 2 amps.

for the money they want for those HCCA subs, I would look at the Sundown woofer lines. Like the SA or the Z.

http://www.woofersetc.com/p-9260-sa-12-d4-sundown-audio-12-600w-dual-4-ohm-sa-series-subwoofer.aspx
3 of those will cost less than 2 of the Orions, give you the cone area of just about 2 15" subs. 2 of those is less than 1 of the Orions

I run the AXIS line equivalent from TC Sounds. Quad coil shorting ring high power and output, small enclosure 30mm excursion 1 way linear. About the same dollars per as the Orion
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-638



Here is the thing, running kilowatts of power becomes very cost prohibitive. And as you add more and more power, the return is less and less. For every 3db of output gain, you either have to double the cone area or double the power. 3db is not a lot. plus you start to fight thermal compression. Thermal compression is when you are giving the woofer a lot of power the woofer coils heat up increasing the resistance. This in turn reduces output so you end up fighting your woofers to get louder.. Physics tends to bite you in the butt.

My suggestion is to run 2 or 3 of the cheaper subs in a properly designed enclosure. Run a single 1.5 to 2kw amplifier that can handle the load you are wanting. See if the volume is adequate for your needs. Chances are your factory electrical will handle the amp unless you are running around with max volume and tone heavy music. You could always add a second amplifier.

I like 3 subs for these kind of installs because more motors means cooler coils which reduce the compression. it's cheaper to add a second battery and a battery tender at night than buying a 400 dollar 200+ alternator. and other batteries.

Good luck!! I have been through this with my son. Can try to help as I can.

TundrSQ also had a good question... What are you running besides a 140db+ subwoofer set-up?

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post #4 of 7 Old 04-16-2013, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iBlackSunday View Post

. Would this amplifier work for these sub woofers? .

I hate to say it but if you have to ask then you may be in a bit over your head. Just one of those amplifiers is going to drink about 170 amps. That's going to be about 350 amps for 2 of them. You'll have to double up on batteries and alternators.

BIG BUCKS!
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post #5 of 7 Old 04-17-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Secondly, TundrSQ is 1000% correct on the electrical upgrades. You are talking adding batteries as in multiple and at least one HO alternator.
This is exactly what I want to avoid. I can live with hooking up a second battery though.
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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

If you can get the sub in dual 4 ohm coil configs then a single amp will make it easy, otherwise you are looking at a high power at 2 ohm amp like a JBL GTO line or others.
They do come in 4 ohm coil models for the 12 inch subwoofers. Would the one 5kw amp power these two Orions fine with a second battery minus the HO alternator?
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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

If the dual 2 ohm coil is the only way you can get this sub, and you are going to run 2 of them, look at running 2 amps.
If these come in 4 ohm coil, would one amp be good enough? Series it and drop it down to 2 ohm?
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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

for the money they want for those HCCA subs, I would look at the Sundown woofer lines. Like the SA or the Z.
I have heard that HCCA Orion Subs are one of the best and loudest subwoofers out there. I am trying to go for SPL even though I listen to these on a daily basis because I want me car to rattle apart from the vibration and sound.
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Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

http://www.woofersetc.com/p-9260-sa-12-d4-sundown-audio-12-600w-dual-4-ohm-sa-series-subwoofer.aspx
3 of those will cost less than 2 of the Orions, give you the cone area of just about 2 15" subs. 2 of those is less than 1 of the Orions
Yes, but will they give me the audio output the dual Orions will with the 5kw amp on 4 ohms?

I run the AXIS line equivalent from TC Sounds. Quad coil shorting ring high power and output, small enclosure 30mm excursion 1 way linear. About the same dollars per as the Orion
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-638



Here is the thing, running kilowatts of power becomes very cost prohibitive. And as you add more and more power, the return is less and less. For every 3db of output gain, you either have to double the cone area or double the power. 3db is not a lot. plus you start to fight thermal compression. Thermal compression is when you are giving the woofer a lot of power the woofer coils heat up increasing the resistance. This in turn reduces output so you end up fighting your woofers to get louder.. Physics tends to bite you in the butt.

My suggestion is to run 2 or 3 of the cheaper subs in a properly designed enclosure. Run a single 1.5 to 2kw amplifier that can handle the load you are wanting. See if the volume is adequate for your needs. Chances are your factory electrical will handle the amp unless you are running around with max volume and tone heavy music. You could always add a second amplifier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

I like 3 subs for these kind of installs because more motors means cooler coils which reduce the compression. it's cheaper to add a second battery and a battery tender at night than buying a 400 dollar 200+ alternator. and other batteries.
Could I buy 3 subs that could put out more audio power than 2 of the HCCA Orions? I understand the coil compression, and when you get too hot, you roast voice coils, which it would be better to have 3 or 4 subs to play audio to keep each sub cooler.

Good luck!! I have been through this with my son. Can try to help as I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

TundrSQ also had a good question... What are you running besides a 140db+ subwoofer set-up?

I have nothing more in my car other than my stock speakers.
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post #6 of 7 Old 04-18-2013, 03:34 PM
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if all you want is loud bass....go check out the Digital Designs line of subs...2 of their 12's in a ported box should make you the spl leader in your hood. Plus they sound great...and its a great company.smile.gif

Tim
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post #7 of 7 Old 04-19-2013, 11:56 PM
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Would 3 of the subs out do 2 of the Orion's? Yes. More cone area.

My son uses digital designs 9012's. 3000 watts of jbl gto14001 amps x 2.

Killed a couple of factory alternators. 3. Batteries. His set up would kill his car. As In the motor would die due to the voltage drop.

We added a 200+ amp alternator (idyl spec'd at 183 amp and ~250 at max for 399 bucks) 3 sears diehard platinum batteries and gobs of 1/0 wire for both positive and negative runs. All so he could have a serious daily driver ground pounder. Term labbed at 149 db sealed legal from a trunk set up.

Now you are wanting to add around 2k more power. So for a daily driver and reliability you are going to have to beef up the electrical of your car or you will go through what my son did. You will kill alts and batteries as well as run the risk of smoking the amp. I get what you are wanting to achieve and support your goals.just be sure to know you are going to have to spend cash on the electrical upgrades.

For the money, the SA12 subsX3 ( if you have the room) and a good 3 kw amp will absolutely pound your car. While you will still need to upgrade some electrical, it would be substantially less than trying to run the 5k amp.

What ever you do, I seriously suggest contacting Pete at pwkdesigns.com for an enclosure design. Money well spent.

What type of vehicle?

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