Official Sony HDR-SR11/12 Thread - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by persiannight View Post

But Ken you're assuming everyone has as the same perception of what's right and what's wrong in picture quality. What you see as richer, more saturated color could be oversaturated and unnatural to somebody else.


Well then you could say this about every review. Thats why ken is doing his own testing to get his own point of view.

You and I could do the same. I think if everyone had both cameras to test for their own, everone would find different results in terms of the fine details.

Items like really bad low light noise would be universal but fine low light noise is subjective to testing conditions.

So I think that Kens tests are just adding another personal opinion that should be considered but not considered the final word (no offense KEN)

I think we are at the point with these A/B tests and even the reviews to say that we have some really good cameras here in the AVCHD formate.

Which is what we really want. NO MORE TAPE

Lets hope that neither of the cameras shows serious problems after some long term use.

How long did it take for the canon hg10 2g file size issue to surface??
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post #932 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rldivide View Post

AE Shift: Automatic Exposure Shift. It's not locked. It's changing automatically. What you control is a shift around this automatic setting.

Ok then why did you say it could not be used for a movie???
the exposure changes out of control or something???
what you said makes no sense to me.

If the exposure changes during the shot the camera will adjust accordingly but If you shift the AE then it will still adjust but with a higher or lower exposure as you so choose.

OR you can set the exposure to manual and LOCK IT if you want.

Ths SONY has manual exposure control which locks the exposure where you set it.

SO could you explain again what you meant by what you wrote
here:
" And AE shift can't be used for movie, as the exposure keep changing, out of control, during the entire shot."

as what exposure keeps changine the cameras exposure or the actual lighting conditions. Either way that makes no sense. If the lighting changes the camera will adjust. If you have AE shift on it will still adjust but but with more or less exposure according to your desired setting.

The camera will only adjust if the lighting changes.

Again the AE shift also produces very nice results when you set is to -2 it gives the the film a better contrast and more depth. This is maintained throughtout the entire shoot even as the lighitng changes and the camera adjusts.

If you set the manual exposure it will lock and will not change with lighting changes. Not good for film.


And again we are talking about consumer level cameras here, toys in the eye's of the more serious. If you had the DVX 100 then you know what im talking about.
If you want better control of the look of the film you have it. Why do the pro cameras supply a manual focus and zoom ring?? because its cheaper?? NO
Why do they allow iris control?? why do they have XLR imputs??
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post #933 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by markus2008 View Post

If anyone remembers my initial SR11 review I stated that in direct sunlight I noticed a desaturation of colour with a blue bias that was different to how my eyes interpreted the scene.

Well I have now resolved this issue. It is to do with the camcorder's auto white balance detection.

Here is a screen grab comparison of a sunlit scene with the white balance set to "Auto" and the same scene with the white balance set to "Outside".

With the white balance set to "Outside" the video has no blue bias and matches what I see with my eyes perfectly. What this proves is that the camera's auto white balance is a bit out in certain very bright settings (duh), but at least I can cross the issue with outdoor sunlit scenes off my now very small list of concerns.

After reading your post, I took my SR11 outside today (first nice sunny 40 degree day) and did my own comparison shots of Auto white balance and outdoor white balance. I must be doing something wrong, because on each of my three tests (each with a different scene), I saw no difference. Now, in all fairness, I am still learning how to operate all the nuances of this cam, and I watched the footage via component cables to my 720P plasma. But my blue sky looked the same, the yellow house looked the same, the blue waters of the bay looked the same, the dark green pine trees looked the same, the tan grass looked the same, and so on. Fine details were harder to judge due to the component hookup, but even when looking carefully at a particular item in both shots, they looked exactly the same.
Perhaps my eyes are not as sharp, or I did something wrong on the camcorder when selecting the settings. Whatever the case is, I saw no change. And I am stumped as to why.

Respectfully,
Mike

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post #934 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persiannight View Post

But Ken you're assuming everyone has as the same perception of what's right and what's wrong in picture quality. What you see as richer, more saturated color could be oversaturated and unnatural to somebody else.

No Persian, what I see is closer to reality. I now have three people that agree (me, my wife and my anal pro video friend). This is not subjective. This is look out the window and see which picture more closely resembles reality. Also, noise is not subjective, either it's there or it's not. Same thing with exposure, highlights can be blown out or not. Yes, some areas of a picture can indeed be subjective, but color accuracy should not be. And please, before anyone calls me or my friend biased, we both have ONLY Canon HD camcorders. He's got an HV10 AND an HV20. I had an HV10 which I sold to buy an HV20. I haven't had a Sony HD cam since my FX7. The reason for that is I thought Canon produced a better picture. I have zero allegience to either company.
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post #935 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike52 View Post

Perhaps my eyes are not as sharp, or I did something wrong on the camcorder when selecting the settings. Whatever the case is, I saw no change. And I am stumped as to why.

No Mike, you're not doing anything wrong here. Ultimately, your WANT auto to behave like outdoor when you're outside with real sunlight. That means that the auto mode works correctly. In my experience, the white balance presets come really handy when you have mixed sources of light, like for example when you're inside with ambient light as well as sunlight coming in. In auto mode, the camcorder will try to find a midpoint between the two, which may or may not look good depending on where your subject is. At that point, it's worth trying the indoor and outdoor if you want to favor the ambient or sunlight light source respectively (and switch to manual if none of them looks good to you).
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post #936 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gsimmons2005 View Post

.... My final decision maker was that the SR11 through HDMI on my tv created nasty artifacts during motion, while component was perfect.

What is this all about? I have not gotten the HDMI cable yet, but am anxiously looking forward to getting it so that I can enjoy watching HD on my 720P plasma. But is this real? Has anyone else seen this? If this is a real problem, especially with a plasma like mine, then I may have to return my new SR11. Others, please chime in.

Respectfully,
Mike

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post #937 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

ken first i agree with you about pc color correction i too dont want the hassle cams nowadays should be good enough without the need unless you are making a cinema film perhaps.

you obviously used the canon ok with the lcd as it has no viewfinder i could not use either of my hdv cams outdoors without using the viewfinder[in sunny weather no way is the canon lcd better than ones on usual hdv cams.

regarding the canon color i take it you were on auto wb i have found some cams to be better using manual setting outdoors others with auto setting could the canons auto wb be the inferior point regarding best color.

i take it the sr 12 wins on build quality and overall sound.the canon has the p record mode i know.


Well now is as good a time as any to give my final assessments...far earlier than I thought I would. I shot a bunch of clips this morning under clear blue skies with just occasional scattered clouds. I shot first with one cam and then immediately the same scene with the other. I prefer doing an A/B side by side at the same instant in time, but I couldn't for a couple of reasons. First it was very windy in N.Y. and second, because of the need to extend the LCD, it was just too awkward to frame both cams accurately.

To answer Flinty's question first, I had no problem with the Canon LCD except for one shot, shooting in to the sun. I wanted this shot because I wanted to see how the lens on both cams handled sun glare. I have a theory about the rez charts that CCI uses. These charts are shot under indoor, controlled lighting conditions...it says nothing about how a lens handles glare, bright sunlight, high contrast, low contrast etc (the somewhat blurry zoom shot I got yesterday with the Canon when shooting across a drizzly field, was a low contrast condition that the Canon didn't respond favorably too...there was no such problem this morning under bright, contrasty light). These are all factors in lens design and won't necessarily show up in any rez charts. Just another reason why it's dangerous to 'buy by the numbers'.

But at any rate the only issue I had with the Canon LCD was that one scene, shooting in to the sun. It was very difficult to see the LCD. It wasn't impossible, but it wasn't easy.

What I found with the sunny clips of today was a consistently better color rendition of the Sony. My friend and I both agreed it was closer to reality. At times the Canon was just too cool whereas the Sony was neutral. This is pretty much what I've felt all along with the Sony on its own, but it was even more evident in contrast to the Canon. This didn't occur all the time, but happened often enough. Again, the Canon displays the magenta sky issue and can be annoying at times. They just can't seem to get rid of this.

Interestingly, and somewhat surprisingly, I saw almost no evidence of the purple fringing on the Canon lens. It happened perhaps once or twice, but only to a minor degree and only in areas of very bright to dark transitions. I'm convinced this is not a lens issue, since there is no consistency to it and when it does occur, it does not occur along the edges where you typically see CA in a lens. If I wasn't looking for it, I doubt I would have seen it at all. In my mind this is not an issue with the HF10.

My friend and I both thought the Sony did an overall better job with exposure. This, coupled with the amazingly low noise of the Sony, simply produced to what our eyes always felt was the more professional looking image. This is something I felt from day one with the Sony. It just hits you right away. We both agreed we've never owned a cam that produces this professional looking a picture. The color is just the best of any cam I've ever owned and coupled with the overall excellent exposure and low noise, I haven't seen anything better. I saw no repeat of the 'haze' issue I saw on two clips a week or so ago.

One thing we also agreed on was that the HV20 produces a better picture than the HF10. My friend first mentioned this when he said we had a much tougher time determining which cam produced a better picture between the HV20 and the SR12. We simply didn't have that difficult a time on this go-around. I honestly expected to be doing A/Bs for days if not weeks.

I asked my friend what his final assessment was in terms of how much better he thought the Sony picture was. He felt that overall it was about 20% better on average, but some scenes were more like 30% better. Although it's hard to quantify, I don't think I'd disagree with him.

The ironic thing was that we both agreed beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the closest picture parameter was sharpness and detail. On my 60" 1080p Pioneer Kuro, it was almost impossible to pick a winner in the overwhelming majority of clips.

I know full well that some will say "oh, you're biased", but those people simply don't know me. The only reason I go through camcorders like water, is I'm ALWAYS after what I feel is the best picture. My last two HD cams were Canons prior to this for that reason. But this round goes to Sony...at least IMO and my anal video buddy's opinion too.

This is no way says the Canon is a slouch, it isn't and I'd be happy with it if the Sony wasn't around. But I don't think I"d make the switch from the HV20 to the HF10 based purely on picture quality. I'd be tempted to keep both, the HV20 for when I want to shoot the best quality and the HF10 for the convenience of AVCHD acquisition.

By the way, for the 'point & shooters' there is little difference between either cam in terms of their ease of use. Of course the viewfinder or lack thereof may be an issue. If you wear glasses, it will be an issue.

Also, I did not try the 24p or 30p mode since I didn't plan on using it. I might give it a whirl for fun.
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post #938 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gsimmons2005 View Post

My final decision maker was that the SR11 through HDMI on my tv created nasty artifacts during motion, while component was perfect. However since 5.1 only works through HDMI, if I wanted to see the video correctly, it would be 2.1 since through component so the 5.1 was no so critical.

Gsimmons, there's something whacky about your HDMI connection. You should not be seeing any artifacts introduced as the result of an HDMI connection. If you component video is clean, then your HDMI should certainly be clean too. Not sure what's going on there.
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post #939 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Fort View Post

Ok then why did you say it could not be used for a movie???
the exposure changes out of control or something???

what you said makes no sense to me.

If the exposure changes during the shot the camera will adjust accordingly but If you shift the AE then it will still adjust but with a higher or lower exposure as you so choose.

That's right. And that's why it's bad for movies; move a little the camera, or an actor, and light conditions are changed. And so change the exposure. You have to lock it or it won't look "professional" anymore (search for a single movie where the exposure change inside the same shot, except for special stylish effects).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Fort View Post

OR you can set the exposure to manual and LOCK IT if you want.

Ths SONY has manual exposure control which locks the exposure where you set it.

Fortunately ! But the problem is you can't lock exposure, so the camera can chose (and you don't have control over it) to set shutter speed as high as 1/200, and every motion will look jerky.. Cine cams have a fixed shutter of 1/48, most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Fort View Post

If you want better control of the look of the film you have it. Why do the pro cameras supply a manual focus and zoom ring?? because its cheaper?? NO
Why do they allow iris control?? why do they have XLR imputs??

Sure, it's better for control, I never said it wasn't It's just way more costly.
But what matters most in the end is the result you can achieve on the picture..
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post #940 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike52 View Post

After reading your post, I took my SR11 outside today (first nice sunny 40 degree day) and did my own comparison shots of Auto white balance and outdoor white balance. I must be doing something wrong, because on each of my three tests (each with a different scene), I saw no difference. Now, in all fairness, I am still learning how to operate all the nuances of this cam, and I watched the footage via component cables to my 720P plasma. But my blue sky looked the same, the yellow house looked the same, the blue waters of the bay looked the same, the dark green pine trees looked the same, the tan grass looked the same, and so on. Fine details were harder to judge due to the component hookup, but even when looking carefully at a particular item in both shots, they looked exactly the same.
Perhaps my eyes are not as sharp, or I did something wrong on the camcorder when selecting the settings. Whatever the case is, I saw no change. And I am stumped as to why.

Respectfully,
Mike

Mike, not at all! There's nothing wrong with the way you're operating the cam. In most conditions you probably won't see much of a difference. In fact I'm much more comfortable with a cam that accurately sets its AWB in such a way that most times I can't improve upon it.

However, with that said, there will be times and there will be weather conditions that using a preset or the manual white balance, will yield better results. If you had a cam where the AWB consistently produced different results than the presets, you'd have a cam where the AWB wasn't doing its job properly.

One thing you may find useful is to connect your cam to your HDTV and output a live picture. See how the LCD or viewfinder (depending upon which you use) depicts the scene vs how you see it on your HDTV. This will give you an idea of the color bias of the viewfinder or LCD since neither is generally extremely accurate. Once you know the 'delta', it will be easier for you to determine if the color you see in the LCD or viewfinder is indicative of the cam producing the proper colors.

Edit: Just saw Eric's post...'brilliant' minds think alike!
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post #941 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rldivide View Post

That's right. And that's why it's bad for movies; move a little the camera, or an actor, and light conditions are changed. And so change the exposure. You have to lock it or it won't look "professional" anymore (search for a single movie where the exposure change inside the same shot, except for special stylish effects).

That's true, but we're not shooting "Hollywood movies" here, we're shooting home videos. Locking an exposure on a video camera and then zooming or panning will invariably create disasterous effects. The video will become overly bright or overly dark and detail will become obliterated.

This is why video needs dynamic adjustments and why 'exposure shift' is the way to go if you choose to deviate from the camera's 'decisions'. You get the dynamic adjustment, plus the ability to lighten or darken the exposure dynamically.

Also, I'm not sure why you think a shutter speed of 1/200 on a video camera will produce jerky motion. That simply isn't the case.
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post #942 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rldivide View Post

.......Fortunately ! But the problem is you can't lock exposure, so the camera can chose (and you don't have control over it) to set shutter speed as high as 1/200, and every motion will look jerky.. Cine cams have a fixed shutter of 1/48, most of the time.....

Ok I see this point

So the canonhf10/100 has control over the exposure and control over the shutter speed accomplish what you posted above?

Ok but if the manual exposure setting in conjunction with the lack of shutter control of the sony makes it bad for movies it could be said (and I'm saying it) that the auto focus is bad for moview as well. You want control correct?? So auto focus is not desirable for movies
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post #943 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:27 PM
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I dunno why it happened on my samsung 42" 720p (LN51) TV...it even happens through my onkyo 705 passed through TV. I think the 60i signal is too much for my 720p to handle or something through HDMI? Wheras the component is being downconverted correctly to match the TV? It is strange but really made the video look bad! Its like the interlacer in the TV could not correctly smooth out motion through HDMI and the SR11.
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post #944 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:31 PM
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Trust me, it's the TV and not the camcorder. I know some Samsungs have some real issues with "HDMI handshakes".
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post #945 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:32 PM
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Have you used HDMI on your TV with other 1080i sources (not 720p sources)? Sounds like maybe your TV has a better component scaler than digital scaler?
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post #946 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's true, but we're not shooting "Hollywood movies" here, we're shooting home videos. Locking an exposure on a video camera and then zooming or panning will invariably create disasterous effects. The video will become overly bright or overly dark and detail will become obliterated.

This is why video needs dynamic adjustments and why 'exposure shift' is the way to go if you choose to deviate from the camera's 'decisions'. You get the dynamic adjustment, plus the ability to lighten or darken the exposure dynamically.

Also, I'm not sure why you think a shutter speed of 1/200 on a video camera will produce jerky motion. That simply isn't the case.

I agree Ken.

I just was trying to provide my point that the canon is not better suited as a cine-cam any more than the sony. And neither of these has enough features to be touted as such. the 24p and shutter control of the canon adds to the creative process but so does the manual focus wheel and AE shift of the sony. So each camera has its strenghs for such creative endeavors. I think the AE shift would actually be better.

If I let the camera auto adjust the exposure like if I have my camera on a dolly and track a subject walking from a shady area to a very sunny one well then I'll be ok. But If I LOCK the exposure and set the shutter speed the video would go from proper exposure in the shade (assuming thats what I set for) to over exposed in the sunny one.

Unless we have a complete lighting crew and equipment to control the lighting and fill lighting in the shadows. But I if can afford that I could afford a camera better suited for the project.
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post #947 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:49 PM
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I do have to say though that if I could find the SR11 for 950$, I would buy that in a heartbeat, but everyone is sold out, and I need something now...so the 300$ difference mean the hf100 won the war. I think 7 hours of recroding time (40gb) is MORE than enough for any week long trip, but if your gone for a while, perhaps the SD is better.

What I did find annoying with the SR11/12:

- Taking pictures while recording is SLOW...takes like 10 seconds to record a drive.
- Forces you to switch to SD mode to see SD movies? why can't I just see both
- The focus dial on the front was terrible and not usefull - its akward to use
- Surround sound was OK, not great. Chances are the average user wont notice much between a good stereo mic and the 5.1 concept
- Editing was crap - why can't I cut from the begining and end like the canons? Instead you can only split movies...grr as I want to avoid the computer as much as possible
- Handling was a little bulky, especially for small hands like my wife
- Viewfinder is nice, but would maybe only use it 5% of the time (never really used older camcorders, so no habits created)
- Not yet sold on the touch screen interface - I found it annoying to use personally. Lots of marks on the screen and navigating it seem to take longer than traditional joystick menu system.
- HDMI motion artifacts on my 720p TV (not sure why, could be TV, but was no good)
- Did not like the fact that I could only charge batteries while on the camera, unless I buy another adapter. My old Panny had a base station you could charge seperate of camera, but then could hookup to camera for live power
- 10mp is a joke - they are really 5.6 MP shots interpolated up (they should just be honest here)
- Manual is TERRIBLE, explains maybe 50% of the screens, options, etc with no description about what does what
- Sony Memory sticks are OVERPRICED

Nice things about the Sr11/12:

- Built like a tank. It is heavy and massive
- Viewfinder is better than most and actually somewhat easy to use
- Nice LCD, but this nice LCD also eats away at the power
- quick and easy playback through the play button
- Great picture otherwise, but again most users prob wont notice between hv20, sr12 and hf10
- 5.1 sound is nifty in concept, ok I guess but practically not that useful
- Decent software
- Great cable placement, nice and tough cable doors, etc - def a strong point of the camera
- 60gb HD is huge! Plenty of space for anything you need
- x.v. color? nice but how many things support it? By the time I get a TV that can support it, i will prob have a new camcorder
- Good focusing, though indoor light focusing was all over the place --> lets hope the hf100 is better here since I do lots indoors
- Big LCD is nice, crisp and sharp
- Record button on the LCD is nice touch
- Remote works well, but zoom is slow


Hope that helps...I returned my SR11 since I was just testing it and was hoping to get it online for much less, but everyone is out of stock! So the HF100 it is, which was around 1000$ after memory, battery and HDMI cable, so its maybe 100$ less than the cheapest SR11 with an extended battery thrown in. I prob wont notice much the diff and the two are pretty even in my opinion.
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post #948 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 01:52 PM
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Well, it works fine trhough the DVR box, but I imagine its doing some type of interlacing before it hits the TV. Just annoying...but again Ill prob switch to a new TV in 3 years at which time a new camcorder will prob be of order, so gotta buy for now I guess

Greg
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post #949 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 02:06 PM
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gsimmons - is your DVR box set to 1080i via HDMI when you have a native 720p screen? That seems like it would be an extra step for most channels. Does this provide a better picture than setting at 720p on your DVR. I've heard of others that preferred a 1080i input to a 720p input on their 720p display, I just wondered why you did?
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post #950 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Also, I did not try the 24p or 30p mode since I didn't plan on using it. I might give it a whirl for fun.

Please do. I'd be curious to hear the results, particularly for low light. To be fair, you would probably also want to test the "slow shutter" mode on the Sony. It's not clear to me how slow shutter would differ from slow frame rate in terms of how the video looks. Thanks.

For reference, I have an older Canon DV camera which has 30p recording, but I haven't noticed a difference in sensitivity when using it. It also has a "low light" mode, which I think is just slow shutter, and that gives a big increase in sensitivity at the expense of very jumpy motion.
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post #951 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 04:29 PM
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Spocko, I will give it a shot before it finds its way to Ebay.
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post #952 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 06:22 PM
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Spocko, I will give it a shot before it finds its way to Ebay.

Wow...so you found the HF10 to be so bad that you are willing to eBay it at a loss
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post #953 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 07:21 PM
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Can SR 11/12 harddrives be upgraded/replaced as easy as a SR 1? http://sony.hdr.sr1.googlepages.com/
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post #954 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 08:03 PM
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Wow...so you found the HF10 to be so bad that you are willing to eBay it at a loss

Well 'so bad' is not quite the right phrase Otakuon. Let's just say the SR12 was 'better enough' for me to make this decison. I honestly didn't expect to make a decision this quickly. Even my wife joked when she saw the new HF10 yesterday "here we go with weeks of testing again".

The differences were surprisingly clear enough to me and on a consistent enough basis to make the decision much easier than I had thought. My friend who came over today and has both the Canon HV10 and HV20, agreed with me 100%. He's planning to pick up an SR12 on Friday if B&H still has them in stock.

We also made a deal that since I was doing all this testing, we would split the loss of which ever camera lost. I'm not registered with Ebay, so he does all the selling for me.
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post #955 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 08:25 PM
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Well 'so bad' is not quite the right phrase Otakuon. Let's just say the SR12 was 'better enough' for me to make this decison. I honestly didn't expect to make a decision this quickly. Even my wife joked when she saw the new HF10 yesterday "here we go with weeks of testing again".

The differences were surprisingly clear enough to me and on a consistent enough basis to make the decision much easier than I had thought. My friend who came over today and has both the Canon HV10 and HV20, agreed with me 100%. He's planning to pick up an SR12 on Friday if B&H still has them in stock.

We also made a deal that since I was doing all this testing, we would split the loss of which ever camera lost. I'm not registered with Ebay, so he does all the selling for me.

Wow. I'm impressed. You have a really good friend.
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post #956 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 08:34 PM
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You can't take it seriously Markus. In fact there is another camcorder site that is a bit more high-end than AVS for this purpose since it's a dedicated site to camcorders. The owner of that site actually won't allow discussions of CCI reviews on his site because he thinks they are so horribly flawed. He has a point. The more I compare these cams the more I can see just how flawed they are. But yes, if you look at the verbiage, the numerical ratings are nothing less than comical.

DVInfo.net is a lot more high end than AVS for the purpose of camcorders because the client membership includes the industry. There's not much objective test data there, but there is a lot of real movie making expertise, advice, hints, tips and tricks on how to get the most from your workflow beginning to end.

But that said, I don't agree CCI is so horribly flawed. There exists no camcorder review peer to the very excellent testing site for still cameras, DPReview. That leaves CCI as the best there is currently. While flawed, I don't see an agenda behind their ratings or opinions. They have been trashing the Canon Optura DV line for years. So when Canon seemed to get a leg up with consumer HDV and AVCHD cams, they were celebrated without prejudice for past failures.

I don't have the HF10 or the SR11/12. I have seen the HF10's Austin Texas footage posted on Chris's website. Like you, I viewed the native AVCHD from a PS3 connected to an Elite 1080p plasma. It's super sharp, but quite honestly, I think it looks dreadful. Blown highlights, infinite depth of field and a look that I would characterize as "electronic." Definitely it looks inorganic and not very convincing of reality. That's just my opinion of course, but I'd mortage the house to wager it's not going to make HD Theater as B-roll footage.
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post #957 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 08:39 PM
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Can SR 11/12 harddrives be upgraded/replaced as easy as a SR 1? http://sony.hdr.sr1.googlepages.com/

Well, I just got my SR 11 today. And while I haven't replaced the HDD yet, I don't see it being a problem to replace with an SSD HDD once the price drops.

Now, accessing the HDD was more complicated on the SR11 than the SR1; I had to remove a total of 4 skrews!

The cover came off with almost no effort!

LL
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post #958 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 09:27 PM
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Can SR 11/12 harddrives be upgraded/replaced as easy as a SR 1? http://sony.hdr.sr1.googlepages.com/

I have the same question (I had seen this same page earlier). Is there some brave soul out there who wants to try? Looks like it might be 2 screws rather than the 1 screw on the SR1 (to get to the drive).

I'm also curious if the camera will operate with a memory stick with the hard drive disconnected, if someone takes the cover off.

I've thought that if the hard drive is easy to replace, that might be an easy/cheap way to extend the hours on the camera, by swapping out the drive.

Any takers?

EDIT: I saw the picture after I had typed this ....
Thanks phigment!
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post #959 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 09:31 PM
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Phigment,

your brave!! and thanks for being so brave. this makes me feel that if I needed to I could take care of things myself. I assume you will wait for the warrenty to run out before you switch the HDD?
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post #960 of 3108 Old 04-02-2008, 09:31 PM
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Well, I just got my SR 11 today. And while I haven't replaced the HDD yet, I don't see it being a problem to replace with an SSD HDD once the price drops.

Now, accessing the HDD was more complicated on the SR11 than the SR1; I had to remove a total of 4 skrews!

The cover came off with almost no effort!

That's great Phigment!!!

Now, do you feel like setting the camera to record (both movies and stills) to a memory stick, and then powering down the camera, disconnecting the HD and powering up the camera?????

come on, you still got a warranty, right?
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