Canon HF11 vs. Canon HG21 vs. Sony HDR-SR12 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:30 AM
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But again, it's virtually impossible to make a mistake choosing between these two fine cameras.

Ken....how about I keep the Sony and you subsidize my Canon and teach me how to use it..... Oh yeah...and upgrade my Final Cut Express while your at it.

By the way. (Off Topic). It appears that ProRes 422 is only availible with Final Cut Pro...not Express. You can play back video encoded with ProRes with Quicktime, but FCE won't Log and Transfer it in with ProRes.

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post #182 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:31 AM
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Ken,

I think our real problem is that Canon or Sony can't completely get it right. Even the new Canon HFS10 - what were they thinking, 10x optical zoom - really.

Canon just needs to wake up and take the specs of the new HFS10 (1/2.6" sensor, 58mm lens and great menu) and add a viewfinder, a 3.2" high resolution LCD, greater zoom, and great doors like the Sony. Then we would all be set.
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post #183 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

Alot of folks rave over the 24p and 30p, but I guess I am too novice in the High Def area to understand how this will benefit me with the events that I film.

My real concern, as of today, is if the 24mbps is going to make a difference in my videos of my kids sporting events.

Still pondering-

Thanks,
Pam

Pam, the whole issue of 24p/30p alludes me too! Why people enjoy watching stuttering video is beyond me. Essentially we are taking the worst part of 'film' (judder) and duplicating that (or trying to) in video.

I think 24p/30p is something you absolutely want to stay away from in taping the kids sporting events! Stay with 60i and you'll be happier in the long run.

For whatever reason Canon sells many cameras because of this capability and some people think they 'need' it without really knowing why. In fact Sony has now included this in their prosumer cameras, the FX1000 and Z5! Many semi-pros and pros though do scoff at this feature, but others like it.

Each to his own!
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post #184 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

I think our real problem is that Canon or Sony can't completely get it right. Even the new Canon HFS10 - what were they thinking, 10x optical zoom - really.

Canon just needs to wake up and take the specs of the new HFS10 (1/2.6" sensor, 58mm lens and great menu) and add a viewfinder, a 3.2" high resolution LCD, greater zoom, and great doors like the Sony. Then we would all be set.

Agreed. I'd send the HG21 packing right now if I could get over this supposed Better Picture quality issue that is apparently obvious to everyone who knows what they are doing

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post #185 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by swgod98 View Post

I hate Sony Memory Sticks. I hate Sony Memory Sticks. This is my first and I don't have a reader for them. The SR11 will not allow me to transfer files from the Memory Stick (??), so I have images on it that can't be transferred without a Memory Stick reader.

The Canon would not allow me to connect the camcorder to the PC and transfer files without having the AC adapter plugged in. This was a slight annoyance. The Sony didn't require the AC adapter.

with the hf11/hg20/hg21, i believe that you can shoot directly onto the sd card, and then plug that into the computer, no need to hook the camcorder up to the pc.

the higher resolution of the canons should give you a small improvement in picture quality after editing, but they are all great camcorders, you can't go wrong with the sony.
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post #186 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TRaymond View Post

Ken.

Any further thoughts on the issue? Our time to return is running out

Honestly I would say go with your gut. If you prefer the colors and overall picture of the Sony, by all means stay with it! I've said before that not everyone strives for the most accurate picture (please trust me, this is not a knock to anyone). TVs are a classic example in that many people dislike an HDTV that's been ISF'd.

When you ISF a TV, you're calibrating to known standards and the resulting picture is as accurate as that TV is capable of producing....but (and it's a big but), the picture will generally look FAR different than what most people are accustomed to.

Most people watch a picture, thanks to the manufacturers, that are far too blue, far too contrasty and far too 'sharp'. The image may 'pop' off the screen, but any movie director or video purist would cringe seeing the picture.

I had my 60" Pioneer Kuro ISF'd a couple of months ago and just love the picture, but as I say, it's not for everyone.

So if the Sony looks better to you, go with it...why talk yourself out of it because someone else likes the Canon better?
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post #187 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Pam, the whole issue of 24p/30p alludes me too! Why people enjoy watching stuttering video is beyond me. Essentially we are taking the worst part of 'film' (judder) and duplicating that (or trying to) in video.

I think 24p/30p is something you absolutely want to stay away from in taping the kids sporting events! Stay with 60i and you'll be happier in the long run.

For whatever reason Canon sells many cameras because of this capability and some people think they 'need' it without really knowing why. In fact Sony has now included this in their prosumer cameras, the FX1000 and Z5! Many semi-pros and pros though do scoff at this feature, but others like it.

Each to his own!

I am glad to hear that I am not "nuts". By the way, why do the cameras have 60i and not 60p ( or is that possible)?
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post #188 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TRaymond View Post

Ken....how about I keep the Sony and you subsidize my Canon and teach me how to use it..... Oh yeah...and upgrade my Final Cut Express while your at it.


TRaymond

Sure, and can I do the windows while I'm there?
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post #189 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

Ken,

I think our real problem is that Canon or Sony can't completely get it right. Even the new Canon HFS10 - what were they thinking, 10x optical zoom - really.

Canon just needs to wake up and take the specs of the new HFS10 (1/2.6" sensor, 58mm lens and great menu) and add a viewfinder, a 3.2" high resolution LCD, greater zoom, and great doors like the Sony. Then we would all be set.

Yup! The halved the zoom and lost the viewfinder! I don't get it either. If you're marketing a camera as 'prosumer' or at least trying to get that part of the market, you never ever drop a viewfinder! No pro would be without it!

But I sure do like the idea of the bigger lens & sensor. It's a shame they dropped the ball on the other features or they might have had me looking at Ebay...once again.
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post #190 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

I am glad to hear that I am not "nuts". By the way, why do the cameras have 60i and not 60p ( or is that possible)?

It's almost irrelevant if your HDTV has good deinterlacing (which most newer TVs do). When an HDTV does the deinterlacing properly, there is absolutely no difference between an interlaced input and a progressive one.

I'm guessing the implementation of progressive in a camera is more expensive and also runs the risk of 'incompatibility' with some older TVs. Of course a manufacturer can always offer progressive as an option that can be switched on or off.
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post #191 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:51 AM
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Okay....Here's the bottom line for me.

My previous camera was a Sony HDR-HC3.

Is this one better??!!

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post #192 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 11:54 AM
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Well, I am satisfied with my purchase. Video quality be damned Actually, I say that now, but the first thing I'll be doing tonight is burning those files to play on our TV haha

I just wish Sony/Canon could come together and put their $h!t together into the perfect camcorder
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post #193 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TRaymond View Post

Okay....Here's the bottom line for me.

My previous camera was a Sony HDR-HC3.

Is this one better??!!

TRaymond

Hey, I had that one too! Yes, either cam is much better than the HC3 as far as I'm concerned. As I recall the HC3 had VERY saturated colors but was kind of soft.
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post #194 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 12:25 PM
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Ken,

Do you think the bit rate will make a difference for my sporting events. Canon Hg21 - 24mbps; Sony SR12 - 16mpgs.

Thanks,
Pam
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post #195 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

Ken,

Do you think the bit rate will make a difference for my sporting events. Canon Hg21 - 24mbps; Sony SR12 - 16mpgs.

Thanks,
Pam

Pam, in theory yes, but I haven't done any A/Bs of that kind. I do notice that finer detail is held better at the higher bitrate, but I'm not sure if that would translate to a noticeable difference in taping sports. There you're more interested in reducing motion blur which supposedly the higher bitrates help, but again I haven't done any A/Bs.

I think the bigger difference for sports is the better autofocus of the Canon. I've always found the "IAF" of the Canon is superior to the autofocus (even in good light) of the Sony.
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post #196 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 01:01 PM
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Last couple of questions then I'll leave the discussion of which is better to better people I know I'll have to go in search of another thread (or create my own), but seeing as how I've come to know all of you so well......

1.) Accessories for Sony SR12. Especially Tripod. I don't want to spend 500 bucks on one or anything, but I will miss my remote controlled tripod, but won't miss the crappy pan head on it nor will i miss it's puny 57" span.

2.) I will someday soon move up to Final Cut Studio 2. But for today...it's Final Cut Express. Can anyone reccommend any good FCE websites/blogs/forums? Most of the info out there is for FCP and some of it doesn't line up with FCE (like the ProRES 422 codec. God why can't they give that to us....Seems like a dream compared to AIC).

3.) Other Accessories like Microphone. When I record a choir concert or play, I'm usually at the back of the Elementary cafeteria on top of a table with the tripod. How do I get better audio (or do I). Do I need to record audio separately with some other equipment, then mix the two?


That will do for now. Any pointing in the right direction would be lovely!!!


Thanks in advance, and as for this thread, I've deciced on the SR-12...(Unless anyone can convince me otherwise between now and the time I get the HG21 boxed up )

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post #197 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TRaymond View Post

Last couple of questions then I'll leave the discussion of which is better to better people I know I'll have to go in search of another thread (or create my own), but seeing as how I've come to know all of you so well......

1.) Accessories for Sony SR12. Especially Tripod. I don't want to spend 500 bucks on one or anything, but I will miss my remote controlled tripod, but won't miss the crappy pan head on it nor will i miss it's puny 57" span.

2.) I will someday soon move up to Final Cut Studio 2. But for today...it's Final Cut Express. Can anyone reccommend any good FCE websites/blogs/forums? Most of the info out there is for FCP and some of it doesn't line up with FCE (like the ProRES 422 codec. God why can't they give that to us....Seems like a dream compared to AIC).



3.) Other Accessories like Microphone. When I record a choir concert or play, I'm usually at the back of the Elementary cafeteria on top of a table with the tripod. How do I get better audio (or do I). Do I need to record audio separately with some other equipment, then mix the two?


That will do for now. Any pointing in the right direction would be lovely!!!


Thanks in advance, and as for this thread, I've deciced on the SR-12...(Unless anyone can convince me otherwise between now and the time I get the HG21 boxed up )

TRaymond

Well, I can't be of much help yet. I havent' finished my testing. However, you do not have to give up the remote control tripod. Sony makes a RC Tripod VCR-80AV that will work with the SR12.

The only thing that I can add - which is the little bit of testing that I have done today, is

1. SR12 in low light drops down to 1/30 second shutter speed; however, the HG21 stays at 1/60 second. That is why in low-light, the HG21 doesn't have that "jerky" look that the SR12 makes. However, the HG21 is a little darker, but I only tested this with the LCD on the camera. I plan to actually video my dark hallway while zooming, etc.. and check it out on the HD TV.

2. The color trailing effect that I noticed with the HG21 on outside filming isn't quite as visible with an HDMI cable - for what it's worth. I would really like to know how to fix this issue.

3. The 24mbps is still an issue for me.

By the way, I have 2 questions:
1. Does anyone know of a way to see the camera settings onscreen while recording ie. shutter speed, aperature value, etc.. or can this only be accomplished during playback.

2. I read that the HG21 has a built-in video light, is this true? If so, how do you turn it on?

Regards,
Pam
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post #198 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 04:01 PM
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Pam, you shouldn't see any trailing with the HG21. I wonder if this is more a function of some interaction with your HDTV? Are you watching on an LCD or plasma? LCDs will be more prone to this issue but it's not a function of the camcorder.

Unless I'm crazy, the light is really a flash for photos and not a video light.

As far as getting readouts on shutter speed, aperture etc., that's easy. Just hit the display button on the inside of the camera with the LCD flipped open. If you're in shutter priority mode, by pushing in the jog stick, you can get a readout of your shutter speed along with a shutter speed scale directly above.

The same is true if you're in aperture priority...you'll see the aperture along with a scale of other aperture values directly above.

This is one of the very nice features of Canons as opposed to Sonys. You get a lot of manual control over your exposure.
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post #199 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

Well, I can't be of much help yet. I havent' finished my testing. However, you do not have to give up the remote control tripod. Sony makes a RC Tripod VCR-80AV that will work with the SR12.

The only thing that I can add - which is the little bit of testing that I have done today, is

1. SR12 in low light drops down to 1/30 second shutter speed; however, the HG21 stays at 1/60 second. That is why in low-light, the HG21 doesn't have that "jerky" look that the SR12 makes. However, the HG21 is a little darker, but I only tested this with the LCD on the camera. I plan to actually video my dark hallway while zooming, etc.. and check it out on the HD TV.

2. The color trailing effect that I noticed with the HG21 on outside filming isn't quite as visible with an HDMI cable - for what it's worth. I would really like to know how to fix this issue.

3. The 24mbps is still an issue for me.

By the way, I have 2 questions:
1. Does anyone know of a way to see the camera settings onscreen while recording ie. shutter speed, aperature value, etc.. or can this only be accomplished during playback.

2. I read that the HG21 has a built-in video light, is this true? If so, how do you turn it on?

Regards,
Pam

Let me stick my 2 cents in here.

First of all you can't go wrong with either one of these cams... So what ever choice you make will be the right one. I wouldn't listen to one argument from one person either... this is your choice not theirs. Instead you should be looking at this collectively.

Collectively speaking, there is great debate over the full light quality of these cams. Given that then I would say there is no "better".... just a "different" so the question is which "different" appeals to YOUR eye. Traditionally, Sony has always goosed the color a bit because they believe it appeals to the majority of people. My wife for example likes VERY green grass. Canons on the other hand tend to be a bit more down to life. I don't know if you have ever tried multicam editing with a canon and a Sony but you're forever having color correct by boosting canon colors or dropping Sony colors. It's enough to drive you batty.

Again...collectively speaking, there is enough debate on 24Mbps to make it questionable as to whether it's really worth it so I would drop that way down on the priority list.

In low light again traditionally, Canon and Sony tend to take different paths. Sony will soften out the picture to try and kill the grain a little while Canon chooses to display the grain and keep it sharp as they can. Again... which way would YOU prefer it...

Built in lights.... they work but they're never really very good so I wouldn't look at that as a very high priority either.

Some people here tend to tunnel vision on PQ.... that's not right or wrong.... it's just their choice. I tend to look at a cam as an entire package. For me build quality IS an issue. It's a real pain to show up at a shoot with a busted cam.... which has happened to me on more than one occasion. And I can tell you that all the beautiful PQ in the world won't do you a stick of good if the dam cam ain't workin'! I have both canon and sony cams and statistically speaking, my Canon's have spent more time in the repair shop than my Sony's.... (albeit some of it MY fault).

Bottom line here anyway.... you can't make a wrong decision.... both great cams, both great companies.....so pick which one YOU prefer.
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post #200 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 04:49 PM
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Pam, you shouldn't see any trailing with the HG21. I wonder if this is more a function of some interaction with your HDTV? Are you watching on an LCD or plasma? LCDs will be more prone to this issue but it's not a function of the camcorder.

Unless I'm crazy, the light is really a flash for photos and not a video light.

As far as getting readouts on shutter speed, aperture etc., that's easy. Just hit the display button on the inside of the camera with the LCD flipped open. If you're in shutter priority mode, by pushing in the jog stick, you can get a readout of your shutter speed along with a shutter speed scale directly above.

The same is true if you're in aperture priority...you'll see the aperture along with a scale of other aperture values directly above.

This is one of the very nice features of Canons as opposed to Sonys. You get a lot of manual control over your exposure.

Thanks again Ken -

I new about the display button, but it doesn't show the information the same way as when you are playing the film.

Also, it may just be Amazon's mistake, but it says in the description that there is a built-in video light. I don't really care, but I just wanted to make sure that I was capable of turning it on - since I couldn't find a button.

Thanks again,
Pam
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post #201 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Let me stick my 2 cents in here.

First of all you can't go wrong with either one of these cams... So what ever choice you make will be the right one. I wouldn't listen to one argument from one person either... this is your choice not theirs. Instead you should be looking at this collectively.

Collectively speaking, there is great debate over the full light quality of these cams. Given that then I would say there is no "better".... just a "different" so the question is which "different" appeals to YOUR eye. Traditionally, Sony has always goosed the color a bit because they believe it appeals to the majority of people. My wife for example likes VERY green grass. Canons on the other hand tend to be a bit more down to life. I don't know if you have ever tried multicam editing with a canon and a Sony but you're forever having color correct by boosting canon colors or dropping Sony colors. It's enough to drive you batty.

Again...collectively speaking, there is enough debate on 24Mbps to make it questionable as to whether it's really worth it so I would drop that way down on the priority list.

In low light again traditionally, Canon and Sony tend to take different paths. Sony will soften out the picture to try and kill the grain a little while Canon chooses to display the grain and keep it sharp as they can. Again... which way would YOU prefer it...

Built in lights.... they work but they're never really very good so I wouldn't look at that as a very high priority either.

Some people here tend to tunnel vision on PQ.... that's not right or wrong.... it's just their choice. I tend to look at a cam as an entire package. For me build quality IS an issue. It's a real pain to show up at a shoot with a busted cam.... which has happened to me on more than one occasion. And I can tell you that all the beautiful PQ in the world won't do you a stick of good if the dam cam ain't workin'! I have both canon and sony cams and statistically speaking, my Canon's have spent more time in the repair shop than my Sony's.... (albeit some of it MY fault).

Bottom line here anyway.... you can't make a wrong decision.... both great cams, both great companies.....so pick which one YOU prefer.

Thanks bigbarney,

By the way, what camera do you use?
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post #202 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 05:13 PM
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Mainly the difference in color boils down to white balancing to a great degree in this case.
Sony is a bit warmer (d65) and Canon is more daylight more likely it is based on 7500 Kelvin. Canon has video light (Sony has none) but it is very dim and cone is narrow hence it is good for very close shots and for most situations you will need an add-on.

I am with Barney AFA quality built but a machine that is balanced and well rounded in features, PQ and Q built is what I look for unless looking for specifics in a model/make.

I have the SR11 but can still be returned but I will keep it most likely ( I like it a lot) and in the meantime wait for new Canon HV40 (yes DV based) to go alone with the Sony.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #203 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

Thanks bigbarney,

By the way, what camera do you use?

I'm still "old school" HDV

1 canon XL H1
2 Canon HV20
1 Canon HV30
1 Sony HC3
1 Sony HC9

I've got a whack of cash coming at tax time and I'm in different ball game with my choice... either the Sony sr11 or a Canon EOS-1D Mark II (still cam)... it's a tough decision and I find myself actually losing sleep over it!
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post #204 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

I'm still "old school" HDV

1 canon XL H1
2 Canon HV20
1 Canon HV30
1 Sony HC3
1 Sony HC9



Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

I've got a whack of cash coming at tax time and I'm in different ball game with my choice... either the Sony sr11 or a Canon EOS-1D Mark II (still cam)... it's a tough decision and I find myself actually losing sleep over it!

You will be more rewarded with the 1DMKII or even better MKIII. I just got the 5DMKII

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #205 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 05:51 PM
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I currently own the Rebel XTI with some very good lenses. I would really like to have the EOS 50d. I thought about the 5DMarkII, but I just couldn't justify the cost. I am as much into still pictures as I am videos.
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post #206 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MomEngineer View Post

I currently own the Rebel XTI with some very good lenses. I would really like to have the EOS 50d. I thought about the 5DMarkII, but I just couldn't justify the cost. I am as much into still pictures as I am videos.

You may consider the 40D much cheaper with better iso performance than 50d with no or little field resolution difference. I also own some Nikon gears (many) which I like including Canon 30D and Nikon D90.

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post #207 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 06:17 PM
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You may consider the 40D much cheaper with better iso performance than 50d with no or little field resolution difference. I also own some Nikon gears (many) which I like including Canon 30D and Nikon D90.

Really, I was under the impression that the 50D was winning that debate.
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post #208 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 06:41 PM
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Really, I was under the impression that the 50D was winning that debate.

In terms of very high ISO?? 40D might have the edge but 50D edges the 40D in resolution(some say very little difference who actually compared them). 50D offers more features. I would get the 50d if don't mind the price and need to crop often since has the pixel density that where 50D wins over 40D.

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post #209 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 07:04 PM
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http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng...(brand3)/Canon

Above link provides the DxOMark for any DSLR.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #210 of 347 Old 01-05-2009, 07:30 PM
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Canon has video light (Sony has none) but it is very dim and cone is narrow hence it is good for very close shots and for most situations you will need an add-on.

At least as far as the HG21 is concerned, the light is only for flash photography, not video. I checked the manual to make sure I didn't overlook that.
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