The Sony HDR-XR500V and XR520V Owners thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1682 Old 03-25-2009, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

osv, it sounds like you really need to actually use this product before reaching (wrong) conclusions. Note that the title of this topic is "Owners Thread." What equipment do you currently use (i.e., actually own) and what are you doing here?

Personally I'm still waiting for the answer to this question....

If you are going to pop off in an owner's thread regarding the nuances of this camcorder I would hope that you own the product in question. Isn't actual ownership of the identified product that distinguishes an owner's thread from a simple Canon vs Sony thread??
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post #182 of 1682 Old 03-25-2009, 08:29 PM
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I've shot a short clip (stripped audio with tsMuxer). It is a plane in the sky and I zoomed in with 24x (video is handheld).

http://rapidshare.com/files/213209617/00000.m2ts
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post #183 of 1682 Old 03-25-2009, 08:59 PM
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Is anyone else finding out this camera is selling fast? A week ago three local BB's had it via their store locater page. Now none of them do....

Hope they have it when my gift card gets here.

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post #184 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NV5655 View Post

Is anyone else finding out this camera is selling fast? A week ago three local BB's had it via their store locater page. Now none of them do....

Hope they have it when my gift card gets here.

The 500 which I already bought will be on sale by $100 starting sunday at Best Buy. I will have to get a price match since I bought it from BB a week ago already.

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post #185 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post

The 500 which I already bought will be on sale by $100 starting sunday at Best Buy. I will have to get a price match since I bought it from BB a week ago already.

That's probably why they're showing as out of stock at my local stores. They are holding them back for Sunday.
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post #186 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 11:51 AM
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My local Best Buy stores are selling this camcorder now...and showing them available at three of the six closest stores. I'm not sure why any store would want to hold these camcorders until Sunday, these are pretty expensive camcorders. Even with a $100 discount I can't imagine that that stores would be afraid to put them out on the floor/make them available for sale until Monday. At a $1,100+ price point you would be better off getting them on the floor as soon as possible as your target audience will be smaller than if you were selling a $500 camcorder.
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post #187 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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The waterproof pack is now $50 off:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...9AVE6&v=glance

Buncha savages in this town....

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post #188 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

Item 3 above.


Thanks a lot for case suggestion again. CS-DAB is a great case. Fits tightly and takes very little space. Very easy to take camera out or put back in.

What is this small attachable pocket for?
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post #189 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurgeArrest View Post

Thanks a lot for case suggestion again. LCS-DAB is a great case. Fits tightly and takes very little space. Very easy to take camera out or put back in.

What is this small attachable pocket for?

Glad you like it; I'm happy that in addition to the snug fit and easy removal with the side slot for the hand strap, it also has an adjustable height. I just got the 4-elements/4-groups wide-angle G lens and it adds several inches to the length. With the LCS-DAB, you just re-snap the flip top to the second set of snaps.

The small attachable pocket is for an extra battery. The NP-FH100 is so freaking huge, it will come in handy.
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post #190 of 1682 Old 03-26-2009, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osv View Post

wrong, i never said any such thing, my exact words were, which *i essentially repeated twice in this thread*: "you are deliberately ignoring the point that i made earlier, namely, since the sony lcd can't display anywhere near enough resolution to set manual focus"

deliberately lying about what people say is disgusting

Take a breath, osv. And after you've had a moment, please point everyone toward the device with the highest viewfinder resolution for pulling focus. I doubt you're suggesting that the only true way to pull focus is through an optical viewfinder; what value would that have in a video camcorder? How do you monitor white balance through an optical viewfinder? (And make sure you check the specifications on the Canon that you continue referring to. Naturally, with that viewfinder's dramatically lower d.p.i. and smaller size, it is much harder to pull focus than on the Sony.)

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Originally Posted by osv View Post

i already provided a wikipedia link that answered those questions.

No, it didn't. The outstanding question is whether the 24Mbps AVCHD setting transforms the compression algorithm in some other way than just increasing the bitrate from the next level down, 17Mbps. (The analogy would be to describe a 256kbps MP3 file as having a different "profile" from a 128kbps MP3 file. Great.)

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Originally Posted by Traylorc View Post

Personally I'm still waiting for the answer to this question....

If you are going to pop off in an owner's thread regarding the nuances of this camcorder I would hope that you own the product in question. Isn't actual ownership of the identified product that distinguishes an owner's thread from a simple Canon vs Sony thread??

So again, osv, what's the holy grail waiting in the wings that establishes a point of comparison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by osv View Post

I think that sony left out manual controls in order to keep from robbing their prosumer line of camcorders.

This doesn't make any sense. They have a strategy to appropriate from their prosumer products to...leave them out of the non-prosumer products?
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post #191 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

This doesn't make any sense. They have a strategy to appropriate from their prosumer products to...leave them out of the non-prosumer products?

Can you explain why it doesn't make sense?

For me it makes perfect sense.

This confirms what 'bigbarney' posted earlier about the Sony strategy. XR520 is a consumer camcorder for people that point and shoot and usually don't have time to edit the video. Most of them would prefer to see better low light and stabilization (Sony) than manual controls (Canon) and maybe even GPS (Sony). 24p (Canon) is cool, but is it useful when you tape your running kid in the park? If you need manual controls etc.. Sony wants you to buy camcorder from the semi-pro/pro range. What I think is missing currently from both Sony and Canon range is the semi-pro range, equivalent to the old TRV models but maybe because the demand is too low for this. It's only a bunch of people on forums like this wants this.

And by the way this strategy is being used everywhere in economy. Perfect example is when you travel. You have economy class and business class (which costs not propotionaly more). They usually remove features from economy to indirectly force people to upgrade. It's pure economics and Sony knows that.
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post #192 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

No, it didn't. The outstanding question is whether the 24Mbps AVCHD setting transforms the compression algorithm in some other way than just increasing the bitrate from the next level down, 17Mbps. (The analogy would be to describe a 256kbps MP3 file as having a different "profile" from a 128kbps MP3 file. Great.)

Main profile avchd at 17Mb/s is NOT the same as high profile at 17Mb/s if that's what you're suggesting (or asking?). There are quite a number of different profiles BTW.

Main profile is at a level 4.0 and high profile is at a level 4.1.... slightly different algorithms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Profiles
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post #193 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madeinstein View Post


And by the way this strategy is being used everywhere in economy.

I'm not so sure I would call it a "strategy" as I would simply calling it "Sony's way"

Traditionally speaking Sony has ALWAYS tried to draw a clear line in the sand between their consumer products and their pro products. Sony's choice in main profile avc is a good example. It's strictly consumer level stuff. Blu Ray burning is another example. They tried hard to set up 2 levels of burning; BDAV, and BDMV (BDAV being a consumer level burning technique). Unfortunately (for them... not us) the format war between Blu ray and HD DVD put an end to that idea when people started snapping up the HD DVD concept in droves because you could burn HD DVD's with complete menu systems.

For the most part though Sony is pretty correct with their way. Most consumers at this level want GPS... night shot... 5.1 sound... touch screens... and other consumer level nic-nacks as opposed to lots of manual control. Conversely.... you won't find these things on a Sony pro end cam either.

Personally speaking.... I like the Sony way. If you buy a consumer level cam then that's what you should get. I LOVE the night shot and the 5.1sound. They allow me to do things that other consumer cams just can't do. Some of the video that nightshot has granted me for example are great moments in time that I would have otherwise missed.

There are some that look upon this sort of thing as "gimmicky" and to a certain extent they would be correct but then on the other hand Sony isn't trying to take a consumer level cam and pretend it's more than that. My Canon HV20 for example has 24p capability, but I don't ever use it because the 24p that comes out of it is NOTHING like the 24p that comes out of a REAL pro end cam. I don't know if anyone has ever tried to do a manual focus on a HV20 but it's pretty bloody hard to do with that little lcd screen and its fairly rough resolution.

However it is nice that we have a couple of different companies entering the consumer ring at such different angles.... it gives us all a fairly broad choice at picking what is most important to us.
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post #194 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

I'm not so sure I would call it a "strategy" as I would simply calling it "Sony's way"

I recommend this book which explains 'price-targetting' quite well.

The Undercover Economist
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post #195 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 05:46 AM
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price-targeting is nothing new. In fact just about every product you see on a store shelf involves a certain amount of it. It's little more than taking a logical approach to vending.

You can sell your product for example at a high price and sell only a small volume, or lower the price (thereby lowering profit margin per unit) but increase the volume sold. Stores like Costco or super value are great for this. Which method makes you more money? Well... Costco would swear that selling more on volume is better.

But this has more to do with CONSUMER targeting..... targeting a particular brand of person. Sony products (generally speaking) are always at a slightly higher price anyway. Sony has always done their best at consumer targeting. I don't know if you have ever noticed but Sony (consumer) cams tend to shoot with slightly more vibrant and dramatic color on the 'normal' color setting. Green grass for example is always just a tinge more green on a Sony cam. This is not an accident. Sony actually polled consumers on this subject. They handed out pics of a vibrant scene and an accurate scene and asked (the average consumer) which one was found to look better.
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post #196 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

I don't know if you have ever noticed but Sony (consumer) cams tend to shoot with slightly more vibrant and dramatic color on the 'normal' color setting. Green grass for example is always just a tinge more green on a Sony cam. This is not an accident. Sony actually polled consumers on this subject. They handed out pics of a vibrant scene and an accurate scene and asked (the average consumer) which one was found to look better.

Interesting note, I always believed this is true as well. Until the moment I downloaded videos shot by that guy in Japan that compared S10 and XR520V side by side. To me Canon looked over-saturated and with higher contrast. Sony's image looked more natural. Also Canon had more pink tint all around the image.
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post #197 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurgeArrest View Post

Also Canon had more pink tint all around the image.

I've heard that complaint a few times now. I thought originally it was a few isolated problems but now i begin to wonder if Canon hasn't got a larger color issue on their hands.
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post #198 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I put up a new low light video here (140MB):
http://www.navesink.net/public_html/...nd-Charter.m4v

For those wondering about the IS of this camera it was shot left handed while shooting my DSLR with my right. Without stabilization it would have looked much much worse.

It's 960x540 so note that if you only want to see full size clips that this one has been quartered, using the 'Large' quality selection for iMovie 09. After significantly monkeying around with iMovie selections I think I am just going to use their "almost HD" defaults for project output but keep all video clips copied to my hard disk in full size for editing when something better comes my way for the Mac.

Buncha savages in this town....

Sam Posten
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post #199 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

Glad you like it; I'm happy that in addition to the snug fit and easy removal with the side slot for the hand strap, it also has an adjustable height. I just got the 4-elements/4-groups wide-angle G lens and it adds several inches to the length. With the LCS-DAB, you just re-snap the flip top to the second set of snaps.

The small attachable pocket is for an extra battery. The NP-FH100 is so freaking huge, it will come in handy.


hpmoon, Please let us know how you like your new Wide-Angle lens. Is it the Sony one you mentioned in an earlier post. Thanks
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post #200 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 09:31 AM
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how much did you guys pay for the 520v? bought mine from an online retailer based in canada for US$1050 shipped. this would replace my HC1 which i had for 5 yrs.
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post #201 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by buckmike View Post

hpmoon, Please let us know how you like your new Wide-Angle lens. Is it the Sony one you mentioned in an earlier post. Thanks

And if it covers build-in flash? I attached the wide lens to my old Sony PC100 and then flash was useless. So no indoor photos.
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post #202 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 09:50 AM
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osv, hpmoon,

I'm sort of with osv on the manual controls.

I've found the manual and on page 38 it shows you what you can assign to the manual dial.
  • FOCUS
  • EXPOSURE
  • AE SHIFT
  • WB SHIFT
And yes you can manually control few things (one at a time), but this list doesn't include two fundamental items. APERTURE (Aperture priority) and SHUTTER SPEED (Shutter priority). You can see this values (page 88) but you can't control them.

I think it's a shame they didn't include this as with 1.8f lens aperture priority would give you nice depth of field.
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post #203 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Main profile avchd at 17Mb/s is NOT the same as high profile at 17Mb/s if that's what you're suggesting (or asking?). There are quite a number of different profiles BTW.

Main profile is at a level 4.0 and high profile is at a level 4.1.... slightly different algorithms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Profiles

You have linked to profiles within the very generalized subject matter of H.264 and MPEG4 and AVC codecs. In other words, those profiles are not presented solely within the context of the AVCHD tradename, which appropriates H.264 and/or MPEG4 in ways that the Wikipedia entry fail to do justice.

I think the bottom line is, we don't have a clear resource explaining how the consumer electronics manufacturers implement variances in bitrates using the AVCHD standard; unfortunately you'd need to be speaking with the actual engineers, and we don't have access.

As for me, I think it's much safer to assume that when you go from 17 to 24 Mbps, that's actually just it -- again, like going from a 128kbps MP3 file to a 256kbps MP3 file. The funny thing about these technical forums is that in a very untechnical and very unscientific way, people so often start making things up that are possible but not backed by authority.

I really need to find an expert forum somewhere on the 'Net where logical, unemotional thinkers go to exchange information about these sorts of things. Any suggestions, anyone? I think I mentioned earlier that dvinfo.net is overmoderated by an affiliate link-motivated, short-fused kid...
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post #204 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madeinstein View Post

Can you explain why it doesn't make sense?

For me it makes perfect sense.

I totally agree with every last word of your explanation. I was just pointing out that this osv guy wasn't making any sense, probably because his/her comment was poorly worded -- and again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by osv View Post

I think that sony left out manual controls in order to keep from robbing their prosumer line of camcorders.

He/she probably meant to say just what you articulated more accurately.
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post #205 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madeinstein View Post

osv, hpmoon,

I'm sort of with osv on the manual controls.

I've found the manual and on page 38 it shows you what you can assign to the manual dial.
  • FOCUS
  • EXPOSURE
  • AE SHIFT
  • WB SHIFT
And yes you can manually control few things (one at a time), but this list doesn't include two fundamental items. APERTURE (Aperture priority) and SHUTTER SPEED (Shutter priority). You can see this values (page 88) but you can't control them.

I think it's a shame they didn't include this as with 1.8f lens aperture priority would give you nice depth of field.

I've actually always been agreeing that the Canon bests the Sony on this issue, and I regret it's not included in the Sony's manual controls. (The argument was where osv said there are absolutely no manual controls at all, etc., etc.)

Use of Tele-Macro mode on this product is a poor compromise but it can be made to simulate aperture priority with some inconvenience. And while I wish there were shutter priority too, it helps (ironically) that there is that forced container of 60i (common between the Canon and Sony), which for many purposes reduces the value of shutter priority.
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post #206 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post

I put up a new low light video here (140MB):
http://www.navesink.net/public_html/...nd-Charter.m4v

For those wondering about the IS of this camera it was shot left handed while shooting my DSLR with my right. Without stabilization it would have looked much much worse.

It's 960x540 so note that if you only want to see full size clips that this one has been quartered, using the 'Large' quality selection for iMovie 09. After significantly monkeying around with iMovie selections I think I am just going to use their "almost HD" defaults for project output but keep all video clips copied to my hard disk in full size for editing when something better comes my way for the Mac.

I noticed a lot of noise in that clip. That seems to go against everything I have heard and seen about this camera.

What were the lighting conditions? Which mode did you shoot it in?
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post #207 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree that there is a bit of noise in that, perhaps more than the hype would have led me to believe, but still admirable quality for what is essentially theater dark with minimal spots on the stage. It was REALLY low light and i used the 'low lux' mode. Perhaps that was a mistake and it would have looked less noisy by sticking to the normal mode and cranking up exposure...

Buncha savages in this town....

Sam Posten
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post #208 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post

I agree that there is a bit of noise in that, perhaps more than the hype would have led me to believe, but still admirable quality for what is essentially theater dark with minimal spots on the stage. It was REALLY low light and i used the 'low lux' mode. Perhaps that was a mistake and it would have looked less noisy by sticking to the normal mode and cranking up exposure...

Ah, yeah I have seen clips with the low-lux on and the noise is increased. It seems that the std mode handles low-light conditions better than the low-lux setting. Which is weird.

If possible, could you do a quick clip in near pitch dark with the nightshot mode enabled? I wanted to see how noisy those conditions are with this camera.

Thanks.
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post #209 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 11:23 AM
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Have you see these low light videos on youtube?

Although it's youtube quality I think it still shows quite nicely the difference between normal/lowlux modes. On the end there is comparison against Canon HF11.
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post #210 of 1682 Old 03-27-2009, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

As for me, I think it's much safer to assume that when you go from 17 to 24 Mbps, that's actually just it -- again, like going from a 128kbps MP3 file to a 256kbps MP3 file. The funny thing about these technical forums is that in a very untechnical and very unscientific way, people so often start making things up that are possible but not backed by authority.

I really need to find an expert forum somewhere on the 'Net where logical, unemotional thinkers go to exchange information about these sorts of things. Any suggestions, anyone? I think I mentioned earlier that dvinfo.net is overmoderated by an affiliate link-motivated, short-fused kid...

you "assume"? wrong, that's not how it works, as bigbarney tried to tell you... codecs are based on math, and there isn't very much room for assumption... the profile makes a difference.

i won't disagree with you about the dvinfo mods, lol

but the rest of your posts clearly reflect your own insecurity with technical subject matter, plus an overwhelming propensity to argue with everyone about everything, over nothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post

I totally agree with every last word of your explanation. I was just pointing out that this osv guy wasn't making any sense, probably because his/her comment was poorly worded -- and again:

"Originally Posted by madeinstein
Can you explain why it doesn't make sense?

For me it makes perfect sense."

again, hpmoon, that is a perfect example of you being incapable of understanding things that other people have no problem comprehending.
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