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Old 04-11-2009, 11:22 PM
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I put up a few samples myself for this machine. its just darn good deal for the money. i am not a firm believer in IS for a camcorder. Its really up to the camera man. for some users, even a pro camera would seem like its nine on the richter scale. still, since getting it i have replaced my pc mon with a 24inch fullhd lcd, i got a new ati radeon card with hdmi out. i just feed it directly to the tv. excellent playback on both screens. i just it to capture pics for my new born. seriously, i dare say, for the price you pay, nothing else comes close to the quality.
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Old 04-12-2009, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elifino View Post

a whole lot of you would rather not work at keeping a steady shot

You mean we are supposed to?
Seriously, consumer cam should work well on hand held.
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:00 AM
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I'm seeing a lot of cheese to go with that whine. Some act as if there is nothing they can do about it. Add the cost of a Hague, and still spend hundreds less than a sony or canon. What are you afraid of, the HD2000 already looks odd, adding a stabilizer won't look any wierder than a pistol grip camera.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elifino View Post

I'm seeing a lot of cheese to go with that whine. Some act as if there is nothing they can do about it. Add the cost of a Hague, and still spend hundreds less than a sony or canon. What are you afraid of, the HD2000 already looks odd, adding a stabilizer won't look any wierder than a pistol grip camera.

Elifino..I've got an FH1 on the way and obviously am well aware of the lack of IS thanks to the posts here. I consider myself a total newbie in the current camcorder world since we are replacing a 10 yr old Sony with the Sanyo FH1. Ya..i know...been a while.

What may be some good stabalizer solutions for such a camcorder ? Is a monpod they way to go here?

Dave
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:33 AM
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my FH1 is "being prepared for shipment" thru Amazon (directly, not one of their fraudulent retailers)...

i am also fully aware of the IS problems with this camcorder...

with technology changing so rapidly, there will be even better camcorders in 6 months or 1 year... so instead of spending around $1000 for a canon, which i would not want to "replace" so quickly, i have purchased the fh1, which i fully intend to "replace" in 1-2 years...

in regards to file handling, i have read all over the internet that the AVCHD files created by the canon needs a very fast computer.... i don't know if my computer is fast enough... so instead of buying the canon, and then realizing i have to upgrade my computer, i went with the fh1...

also to help with IS, i just ordered a monopod... i purchased the manfrotto 680b ... it weighs about 1 lb, and can shrink down to around 20 inches ... so easy for traveling and very light ... some reviews state that it is "better than the built in IS on SLR cameras"...

once i receive them and have a chance to test them out, i will post how this combination worked for me ....
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sathni View Post

with technology changing so rapidly, there will be even better camcorders in 6 months or 1 year... so instead of spending around $1000 for a canon, which i would not want to "replace" so quickly, i have purchased the fh1, which i fully intend to "replace" in 1-2 years...

yeh, that's a good point. 24mbps might be considered a thing of the past a couple years from now..maybe not...HF S10 is still nice, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sathni View Post

in regards to file handling, i have read all over the internet that the AVCHD files created by the canon needs a very fast computer..

Anyone know of a good workaround to get the Xacti files to behave well in Vegas? I've tried similar files from another camcorder and Vegas crashes.
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:15 AM
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AVCHD's maximum bit rate is 24 mbps... per the "standard" put out by Panasonic ...

so if we assume this "standard" will be around for a while, you are right .. avchd and 24 mbps is here to stay... (for a few years at least)...

BUT... the storage issue will be changing in a few short months...

the maximum storage of a SDHC card is 32 gb...
with this capacity, AVCHD standard can record about 3-4 hours on a 32 gb card (recording at 24 mbps)...

the NEW storage card - SDXC - can hold up to 2 TB - that's right - 2,000 GB... this will be hitting our amazon shelves in a few short months.... not necessarily the full 2000, but i'll bet the first card will be 64 gb .... double the current max of 32 ...

once this is available, i will almost guarantee that all the SSD (flash) camcorder manufacturers will shift to this new storage technology (which is not backwards compatible with SDHC)....

once you are able to record so much on a card, i will predict that a NEW recording standard will be produced ... one with a higher bit rate than 24, with even better picture quality and more features....

we will then have an awesome "consumer" camcorder, in high def, with no storage problems ... my prediction is that this will be available under $1000 in 2 years ....

by then, the current canon HFS10 will look like archaic camcorders ...

i always compare "cost" vs "benefit" in every decision i make .... knowing the changes coming down the road in a few short months, i do not feel the "benefit" of the canon HFS10 outweighs it's "cost" ....

but then again, the cost-benefit ratio is analyzed differently in each person's mind, so the canon may be "worth it" despite the future changes ....
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:00 AM
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I guess it's kind of like how 32 bit Vista can only max @ 4gb RAM, yet 64-bit Vista has many more years potential to keep adding a lot more RAM than that.

Although there is the possibility that it may make 24mbps longer to die out in that the masses/YouTube-uploaders may take a bit longer to adopt that standard...
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sathni View Post

my FH1 is "being prepared for shipment" thru Amazon (directly, not one of their fraudulent retailers)...

i am also fully aware of the IS problems with this camcorder...

with technology changing so rapidly, there will be even better camcorders in 6 months or 1 year... so instead of spending around $1000 for a canon, which i would not want to "replace" so quickly, i have purchased the fh1, which i fully intend to "replace" in 1-2 years...

in regards to file handling, i have read all over the internet that the AVCHD files created by the canon needs a very fast computer.... i don't know if my computer is fast enough... so instead of buying the canon, and then realizing i have to upgrade my computer, i went with the fh1...

also to help with IS, i just ordered a monopod... i purchased the manfrotto 680b ... it weighs about 1 lb, and can shrink down to around 20 inches ... so easy for traveling and very light ... some reviews state that it is "better than the built in IS on SLR cameras"...

once i receive them and have a chance to test them out, i will post how this combination worked for me ....

Sathni....i look forward to your results with this combo. I had the 680b in my cart on amazon..and remove it before placing my order as I wanted to be sure I had a good one with the FH1.

Dave
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elifino View Post

a whole lot of you would rather not work at keeping a steady shot

It's not that I don't want to work at it, it is just that I don't know how much work it is going to take, or really what this "work" entails. Look, I'm not Stanley Kubrick, I'm not shooting a movie, nor am I going to be carrying around a steadicam or a dolly. I just want something I can pick up and take on vacation and capture good, steady video. That is that a $500 camcorder is for.

All I want to know is if the FH1 can do that, or if the lack of OIS kills it for anything except tripod work. I'm way into the quality of these Sanyos, however if all the shots are going to be shaky, I will sacrifice some clarity and go with something like the Canon HF100.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGators07 View Post

It's not that I don't want to work at it, it is just that I don't know how much work it is going to take, or really what this "work" entails. Look, I'm not Stanley Kubrick, I'm not shooting a movie, nor am I going to be carrying around a steadicam or a dolly. I just want something I can pick up and take on vacation and capture good, steady video. That is that a $500 camcorder is for.

All I want to know is if the FH1 can do that, or if the lack of OIS kills it for anything except tripod work. I'm way into the quality of these Sanyos, however if all the shots are going to be shaky, I will sacrifice some clarity and go with something like the Canon HF100.

Whatever camcorder you get...remember to not suddenly move the camera back and forth, up/down. Stabilization is to help the shakiness for when your hand is holding the camcorder; not for correcting motion. You still need to follow some basic steadiness in order to obtain good video. If you treat the shots with care; it will come out good. If not; then that's what you get as an end result.

For example; shooting one subject and then quickly moving your camera hand to catch something else. It's the fast motion that will kill a shot; no matter how great the stabilization is. Just always be slow and steady.

If you need to transition the shot to something else just do it very slowly. If you are filming someone; just hold it steady; don't jerk the camera around. Be aware of what you will be looking at later.

As far as people who bought the new Sanyo camcorders; maybe they expect this out of a camcorder - to be able to wildly swing it around and then blame the camcorder.
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:13 PM
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can any of you who picked up the Sanyo testify as to it's compatibility (or lack thereof) with Imovie and Mac?
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elifino View Post

Big Barney once tried to explain the difference between avc h.264, and AVCHD h.264

Let me see if I can butcher his memory:

I understood him to imply that AVC is less demanding on computational power, and its bit-rate is not capped(or that limit is much higher). Canon complies with the stricter, more limited AVCHD, so perhaps 24Mbps is utilized greater in the compression, not the acquisition.

Fundamentally, they are the same, they use the same codec. AVCHD implies certain standards and may use a better form of compression resulting in smaller file sizes but greater computational power in order to process them. The files produced by the Sanyo's use a less complex encoding method - do they suffer in the quality because of this? They also use a lower bitrate per field per frame when capturing - do they suffer in quality because of this? That is what I'm trying to find out.

I see plenty of people saying that the extra smoothness of the 60fps 1080p is great, which I can fully understand, what I'm not getting is whether there is a sacrifice in image quality from a lower bitrate in order to get this smoothness. I don't get how the Sanyo's can produce the same sort of quality encoding as a 1080i 60fps capture in a Canon for example, at the lower bitrates they must be using...
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:05 PM
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remember that it's fields vs. frames... interlaced video scans every other line, odd lines in one field vs. even lines in the other field... then two fields combine to make a frame.

even with interlaced footage, some editors will throw away a field, when creating the progressive output... sony vegas pro gives you a choice in how you combine the fields into a frame, one of which i believe is interpolation, where the missing field is faked by duplicating the field you choose to keep.

all flat screens, lcd or plasma, can't display interlaced footage as interlaced, so if you give it interlaced footage, the fields are deinterlaced by the hardware in the tv.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:21 PM
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Yep, but the fact is still, is 24Mbps enough to encode 1080p at 60 frames per second (120 fields per second if you want)

Canon currently use 24Mbps to encode 1080p at 30 frames per seconds, i.e. 1080i 60 fields per second.

These Sanyo's are encoding as much as twice that data using the same bitrate. Is it enough to capture without resulting in compression artifacts/pixelation etc.?
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd View Post

Question...if you record something at 1080/60p and plug it directly into a TV that will only accept 1080i or 720p, will it play?

Was trying this on a Sony Bravia LCD which I assume has a native resolution of 1366*768. Connecting the VPC-HD2000 using the HDMI port on the docking station the picture remained blank. I checked the camera setup and changed the TV output setting from 1080p to 720p and then it worked. 1080i might have done the trick, too, but since my recordings were in 1080p (60 frames per second) I did not want the camera to deinterlace the video before feeding the TV. So yeah... you can playback your 60 frames footage on older TVs.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:00 PM
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i know what you are saying there... the sanyo is actually encoding a lot less data per frame in 60p mode, because there are twice as many frames.

so does 60 fields = 60 frames?
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:14 PM
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The TV ouput on the Sanyo can be set to auto, which automatically conforms to the highest setting of the TV. I've connected and watched on a 720, 1080i and 1080p TV. All look great.

Not sure why people are asking about IS on full zoom. To me, if I'm going to use the zoom, I'm using a tripod or sitting the cam on something solid.

I have some footage on vimeo, with the raw available for download.

http://www.vimeo.com/user381786/videos

I saw the great pricing on Amazon, and decided to just go with someplace known and reliable. Ordered from B&H. For $500, the FH1 is a steal.
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpucker View Post

Was trying this on a Sony Bravia LCD which I assume has a native resolution of 1366*768. Connecting the VPC-HD2000 using the HDMI port on the docking station the picture remained blank. I checked the camera setup and changed the TV output setting from 1080p to 720p and then it worked. 1080i might have done the trick, too, but since my recordings were in 1080p (60 frames per second) I did not want the camera to deinterlace the video before feeding the TV. So yeah... you can playback your 60 frames footage on older TVs.

Cool, thanks.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:31 PM
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IMHO the 60P of the Sanyo not only helps with smoothing out motion, but eliminates rolling shutter. Every video I've seen, including panning across a shelf of books, and tracking a moving bus, have 'visually' straight vertical lines. No leaning. That alone cancels out sony, canon, panasonic, or any other consumer CMOS up until now. What's funny, is the way experienced videographers will defend rolling shutter, but complain about a weak IS. What a crock. We can assist stabilization, but have to live with leaning.
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by osv View Post

i know what you are saying there... the sanyo is actually encoding a lot less data per frame in 60p mode, because there are twice as many frames.

so does 60 fields = 60 frames?

No, 60 frames would be the equivalent of 120 fields if interlaced.

This is my main worry when looking which camcorder to get. I appreciate that 1080p at 60 frames per second is going to give twice as much potential 'smoothness' than the current crop of 1080p at 30 frames per second since it's effectively sampling twice as fast. However, my worry, and something that I still fail to see being answered, is that does the quality of the recorded footage suffer being recorded at this speed when the bitrate being used to encode it is 'only' 24Mbps.

I'm ultimately after the best picture quality I can get in this price range - I'd love that to be at 60 frames per second but if the bitrate Sanyo are using to record at that level isn't sufficient to capture as cleanly and precisely as a Canon offering at the same bitrate but capturing 30 frames per second, then I'd rather sacrifice some motion for the sake of picture quality and stay with 30fps.
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:34 AM
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This is the year we throw away analog television, which scan one line at a time. Meanwhile, we're supposed to invest in cmos that does the same thing? Whatever the mechanism used, the HD2000 doesn't suffer from skew as badly. I don't care how clean canon's video is, if it leans it's a lie, and not true to the image.

http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elifino View Post

I'm seeing a lot of cheese to go with that whine. Some act as if there is nothing they can do about it. Add the cost of a Hague, and still spend hundreds less than a sony or canon. What are you afraid of, the HD2000 already looks odd, adding a stabilizer won't look any wierder than a pistol grip camera.

And some act like we are all pros. Fact of the matter is, the Sanyo is a consumer camcorder, and if it has "consumer" anywhere in the description, it sure as hell better have IS. If I have to rely on a tri or monopod for bright light shooting, then there is no point in even having a camcorder. I only use the things on vacation, which means shooting video the second I see something of interest, not messing around with tripods & potentially missing a shot of something. I don't think I'm alone with wanting IS in the consumer world. Not sure why the concept seems to obviously bother you so much.

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Old 04-13-2009, 09:51 AM
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Could someone who owns one of these comment on the bitrate - i.e. do the recording suffer for lack of bitrate...?
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVboy View Post

I only use the things on vacation, which means shooting video the second I see something of interest, not messing around with tripods & potentially missing a shot of something.

Image stabilization is designed for when you're holding the camcorder and, as a result, your hand shakes. It is not a sudden-motion-compensation mechanism.
If you move the camera and shoot "the second (you) see something of interest", the video is going to move and the image blur. This has nothing to do with image stabilization.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread; you have to adopt some basic fundamentals when shooting a video or it just won't come out good. There's no way around that; for purposes of vacations or whatever. If you have a camera in your hand - you have to play the role cameraman at least a little.
You don't have to, but you can't expect the camcorder to do it for you.

Always hold the camcorder steady and you won't have problems with the image.

It can't be used as a third eye while quickly being moved back and forth as if it were a human witnessing events quickly unfolding. Camcorders have limitations.

People complain about image stabilization; for example "IS vs. OIS", because they think that the camcorder is supposed to magically compensate for careless and motion-heavy handling.

It's the equivalent of saying that a car shouldn't move up suddenly because you drove fast over a bump, versus slowly driving over it and not feeling the impact.
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:12 AM
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I don't think I'm alone with wanting IS in the consumer world. Not sure why the concept seems to obviously bother you so much.

You are right, I get a little disturbed when members interact in this forum, expressing themselves as if they were pros , but then balk at a weakness which can actually be compensated for. At the same time, they sit in silence about consumer cmos's major flaws.

Give me a freakin break.
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Magic Man View Post

Could someone who owns one of these comment on the bitrate - i.e. do the recording suffer for lack of bitrate...?

Have you posted this question to camcorder info ? WE all want to know as you do, but who among us has a test bench?

Of the comments submitted in this forum, I've only seen one purely negative review, but since the member didn't qualify his experience about his one-sentence judgment, it's hard to credit his post as nothing more than an intentional trashing.
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Magic Man View Post

Could someone who owns one of these comment on the bitrate - i.e. do the recording suffer for lack of bitrate...?

I like the 60p, but we all have different standards of what looks good and what doesn't. Probably best to download and view videos and make your own conclusions.

There is footage up on vimeo of the sanyo, latest canon and sony. I believe most of it also has the raw available for download.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Magic Man View Post

No, 60 frames would be the equivalent of 120 fields if interlaced.

This is my main worry when looking which camcorder to get. I appreciate that 1080p at 60 frames per second is going to give twice as much potential 'smoothness' than the current crop of 1080p at 30 frames per second since it's effectively sampling twice as fast. However, my worry, and something that I still fail to see being answered, is that does the quality of the recorded footage suffer being recorded at this speed when the bitrate being used to encode it is 'only' 24Mbps.

I'm ultimately after the best picture quality I can get in this price range - I'd love that to be at 60 frames per second but if the bitrate Sanyo are using to record at that level isn't sufficient to capture as cleanly and precisely as a Canon offering at the same bitrate but capturing 30 frames per second, then I'd rather sacrifice some motion for the sake of picture quality and stay with 30fps.

no, 60 frames = 60 frames, because frames can't be changed into fields... so you have 60 fields(1080i) or 60 frames(1080p60)

was the resolution testing at camcorderinfo are done at 60p? if so, your only concern is whether the display device can handle 60p... if it can't, you have to worry about the deinterlacing issues i mentioned above.

i understand where you are coming from on this, 60p is a whole 'nother ballgame, if you don't have a 60p-capable hdtv.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elifino View Post

You are right, I get a little disturbed when members interact in this forum, expressing themselves as if they were pros , but then balk at a weakness which can actually be compensated for. At the same time, they sit in silence about consumer cmos's major flaws.

Give me a freakin break.

elifino on a rant, lol... i don't think that i've ever seen anybody on any forum defend rolling shutter as being something good?? we all agree that it sucks!
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