New Sanyo HD camcorders 1920x1080 60p - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 791 Old 01-21-2009, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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http://i.gizmodo.com/5136345/new-san...of-and-compact

I hope Sanyo isn’t joking about the 1920x1080 60p recording capability.
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post #2 of 791 Old 01-22-2009, 07:37 AM
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Check out the lense action! http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets...2000-20090121/
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post #3 of 791 Old 01-22-2009, 07:45 PM
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I'm interested in VPC-FH1 - I was going to get a new Sony camcorder, but this one is half the price
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post #4 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 02:12 AM
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Sanyo really updated there Xacti site http://sanyo.com/xacti/english/products/index.html
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post #5 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 05:10 AM
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Damn, 24Mbps at 60p, that looks like one sweet unit. And if it's a real 8Mpixel still shooter too, I could well have found my next unit.

No need for 2 things around the neck....

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Mits 73835, Denon X4000, Emotiva UPA5 (triggered), Wharfedale Pacific Evo 40s, CS, 10s, the internet, a NAS drive, a TiVo Series 3 and an Oppo 103 (bye bye PS3). There's also a Wii, but we don't talk about that...
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post #6 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 05:31 AM
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The thing about these camcorders is the low starting prices are going to be $499 (the horizontal one; VPC-FH1) and $599 (the vertical, pistol grip HD2000).

I wonder where the prices will settle...
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post #7 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfws View Post

The thing about these camcorders is the low starting prices are going to be $499 (the horizontal one; VPC-FH1) and $599 (the vertical, pistol grip HD2000).

I wonder where the prices will settle...

dang i just bought a $700 Nikon SLR lens for my D90...I could of bought one of these bad boys.

My HF11 is starting to get jealous!!!

I have a fever and the only cure is more Blu-Ray....
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post #8 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 08:22 AM
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one of them comes with a microphone input, the pistol grip version. Doesn't make much sense, but I like that in a 6 bill product.
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post #9 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 07:55 PM
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wow. I'm gonna wait until the Full HD Xacti VPC-HD2000 Dual Camera is out.
Does anyone know when they are going to be released?
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post #10 of 791 Old 01-27-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seggers View Post

Damn, 24Mbps at 60p, that looks like one sweet unit.

I am not sure if 24Mbps is enough for 60p. It basically has twice the data of Canon's camcorder at 60i!
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post #11 of 791 Old 01-28-2009, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kalak View Post

I am not sure if 24Mbps is enough for 60p. It basically has twice the data of Canon's camcorder at 60i!

x2
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post #12 of 791 Old 01-29-2009, 02:32 AM
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impressive!

its CMOS sensor is even bigger than Canon's new HF-S100 and S10.

hopefully its low light performance and auto focus is not too shabby.
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post #13 of 791 Old 01-29-2009, 11:14 AM
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Does anyone know if I can use a tripod with those cameras? Especially the vertical design
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post #14 of 791 Old 01-29-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKS View Post

impressive!
its CMOS sensor is even bigger than Canon's new HF-S100 and S10.

Does it? Do you have the specs? Can't find it in their press releases.

Don't forget that a lot of Sanyo sensor's area is wasted in the digital image stabilization (DIS). So even if the physical sensor size is bigger, the effective actual image capture sensor area could be smaller due to the use of DIS.

The lack of optical image stabilization of the Sanyo series is their major handicap. Apart from inferior stabilization, the smaller image capture area usually means worse low light performance.

To be honest, is 1080 60p that attractive? I am not that excited, maybe it's just me. I much prefer a robust video encoding to reduce artifacts to the minimum, rather than boosting 1080 60p with an inadequate bitrate and encoding engine.
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post #15 of 791 Old 02-01-2009, 02:32 AM
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sanyo's sensor size is listed on the official site.

and I saw canon's spec on the review site, I think.

as far as I remember:
canon 1/2.6
sanyo 1/2.5

I could be wrong.
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post #16 of 791 Old 02-01-2009, 09:00 AM
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I'm going to reserve judgment on this camcorder until I actually know the quality of its videos as far as sharpness, color, and low-light capabilities. 60p means nothing if those issues aren't met.
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post #17 of 791 Old 02-01-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

I'm going to reserve judgment on this camcorder until I actually know the quality of its videos as far as sharpness, color, and low-light capabilities. 60p means nothing if those issues aren't met.

I wholeheartedly agree...I venture to say this is more marketing than anything

I have a fever and the only cure is more Blu-Ray....
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post #18 of 791 Old 02-01-2009, 05:53 PM
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For what it's worth, the Sanyo HD 1010 produces a substantially sharper picture in 1080i recording mode than any AVCHD camcorder I have tested (Canon HF10, Canon HF11, Panasonic SD100). I captured max resolution footage from all the above cameras, put the memory card in my PS3, and played them to a 46 inch 1080p 120Hz tv. This was a very interesting experiment. What I found is that ALL of the AVCHD cameras demonstrated significant compression artifacting along the margins of sharply contrasting objects being filmed while the Sanyo (which uses H.264 but NOT AVCHD format) did not demonstrate any of this artifacting.

The one disadvantage of the Sanyo was very poor image stabilization.

I am expecting great things from their new camcorder the HD2000....
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post #19 of 791 Old 02-01-2009, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdewey View Post

For what it's worth, the Sanyo HD 1010 produces a substantially sharper picture in 1080i recording mode than any AVCHD camcorder I have tested ...What I found is that ALL of the AVCHD cameras demonstrated significant compression artifacting along the margins of sharply contrasting objects being filmed while the Sanyo (which uses H.264 but NOT AVCHD format) did not demonstrate any of this artifacting.

I am not going to comment on what you saw. But the fact is that compared with Canon, Sanyo HD1010 records in a lower bitrate. And despite the lack of any AVCHD format constraint, Sanyo only elected to use H.264 Baseline profile (BP) with no CABAC entropy coding designed for consumer device with limited computing power. On contrary, Canon's AVCHD camcorder uses High Profile (HiP) with CABAC entropy coding used by HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
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post #20 of 791 Old 02-01-2009, 08:28 PM
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poor radio with good antenna sounds better than a good radio w/ poor antenna.
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post #21 of 791 Old 02-02-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdewey View Post

For what it's worth, the Sanyo HD 1010 produces a substantially sharper picture in 1080i recording mode than any AVCHD camcorder I have tested (Canon HF10, Canon HF11, Panasonic SD100). ....

that is not possible, period.

i suspect that you messed up some of the camera settings.
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post #22 of 791 Old 02-03-2009, 01:36 PM
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let's pray HD2000 and FH1 uses cabac then.....
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post #23 of 791 Old 02-03-2009, 08:14 PM
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Kalak and OSV: I appreciate your opinion that favors the AVCHD camcorders, but I simply have to disagree with you. I have no axe to grind, and have not bought any of these camcorders to date. See my frame grabs from the Sanyo HD1010 and the Panasonic SD100. I did not have a comparable shot from the Canon's to demonstrate this. Look at both frames at full mag; you will clearly see "compression artifacting" along the sides of the letters with the Panasonic and not with the Sanyo. I did not "mess up" the camera settings; each camera was set to its maximum bitrate recording mode (1080i in both cases) and otherwise was using default, autofocus settings...

Attachment 132353

Attachment 132354
LL
LL
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post #24 of 791 Old 02-04-2009, 03:09 AM
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That's quite interesting.

The Sanyo appears to be darker but that could be because it's taken in closer proximity to the sign. But you're absolutely right... when magnified there does seem to be a lot more artifacting on the avchd side.
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post #25 of 791 Old 02-04-2009, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdewey View Post

Kalak and OSV: I appreciate your opinion that favors the AVCHD camcorders, but I simply have to disagree with you. I have no axe to grind, and have not bought any of these camcorders to date. See my frame grabs from the Sanyo HD1010 and the Panasonic SD100. I did not have a comparable shot from the Canon's to demonstrate this. Look at both frames at full mag; you will clearly see "compression artifacting" along the sides of the letters with the Panasonic and not with the Sanyo. I did not "mess up" the camera settings; each camera was set to its maximum bitrate recording mode (1080i in both cases) and otherwise was using default, autofocus settings...

Attachment 132353

Attachment 132354

Seems like these pics were taken at Fry's

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post #26 of 791 Old 02-04-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdewey View Post

Look at both frames at full mag; you will clearly see "compression artifacting" along the sides of the letters with the Panasonic and not with the Sanyo.

Actually, it's there for both. Sanyo's pic is darker and so less obvious. Adjust brightness and contrast to lighten up the background in the Sanyo's photo, and you would see similar artifacts. HD 1010 tends to get more artifacts in motion video.
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post #27 of 791 Old 02-04-2009, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdewey View Post

Kalak and OSV: I appreciate your opinion that favors the AVCHD camcorders, but I simply have to disagree with you. I have no axe to grind, and have not bought any of these camcorders to date. See my frame grabs from the Sanyo HD1010 and the Panasonic SD100. I did not have a comparable shot from the Canon's to demonstrate this. Look at both frames at full mag; you will clearly see "compression artifacting" along the sides of the letters with the Panasonic and not with the Sanyo. I did not "mess up" the camera settings; each camera was set to its maximum bitrate recording mode (1080i in both cases) and otherwise was using default, autofocus settings...

Attachment 132353

Attachment 132354

not a valid test, those are two entirely different scenes, with no information about the bitrate used, or how the stills were captured.

here is the bitrate for the sanyo hd1010, it's barely half as much as the canon hf11, so there is obviously no way that the picture quality is anywhere near as good:

[Full-HD]: 1920 x 1080 (60 FPS/ 14 Mbps),
[Full-SHQ]: 1920 x 1080 (30 fps/12 Mbps),
[HD-HR]: 1280 x 720 (60 fps/12 Mbps),
[HD-SHQ]: 1280 x 720 (30 fps/9 Mbps),
[TV-HR]: 640 x 480 (60 fps/6 Mbps),
[TV-SHQ]: 640 x 480 (30 fps/3 Mbps),
[Web-SHR]: 448 x 336 (300 fps),
[Web-SHQ]: 320 x 240 (30 fps)

"The VPC-HD1010 produced a horizontal resolution of approximately 550 line widths and a vertical resolution of approximately 575 line widths.

These scores are close, albeit slightly lower, to the video resolution measurements we made for the Sony HDR-TG1. They are also lower than the scores you'll see on elite HD camcorders (like the Canon HF100 and Samsung SC-HMX20)."
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm

lower bitrate + lower resolution = worse picture quality.
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post #28 of 791 Old 02-05-2009, 10:17 PM
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The bitrate does not tell the whole story. The more important feature is the engine used to compress the video footage. My screen shots were taken from a recorded 1920x1080i video recording made with both cameras at Frys. The lighting was similar for both, though I agree the Sanyo delivered a bit darker image. However, I can guarantee you that if you look at the moving images you will see a DEFINITE difference in artifacting which is MUCH WORSE on all the AVCHD cameras I have recorded footage with. Even my wife could clearly tell the difference, and she is not a videophile.

I would love for some other people to repeat my experiment... record some samples from these various cameras and let me know your opinion on this matter. I have come to the conclusion that the "rules" imposed by the AVCHD consortium are crippling image quality for no good reason; those cameras that have refused to follow the AVCHD camp (Sanyo and Samsung) simply produce better video....
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post #29 of 791 Old 02-05-2009, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdewey View Post

I have come to the conclusion that the "rules" imposed by the AVCHD consortium are crippling image quality for no good reason; those cameras that have refused to follow the AVCHD camp (Sanyo and Samsung) simply produce better video....

This makes no sense. The so called "rules" are basically file format, folder structures, video/audio codecs used, maximum resolution and bitrates. Since both Sanyo and other AVCHD camcorders are using exactly the same video codec - i.e. H.264/AVC, and all are working below any imposed AVCHD restrictions (I mean Sony's newest camcorder has only 16Mbps, way below the limit), so any "rules" of the AVCHD specs are not a factor; at least for this generation of camcorders.

Sanyo has put its HD1010 in a more restricted specs than Canon/Sony's AVCHD camcorder by using inferior Baseline Profile and low bitrate (and remember that they are using the same H.264/AVC codec here). So no, Sanyo has not taken any advantage of its departure from AVCHD camp; at least not with its HD1010. When Sanyo has a 1920x1080 60p 45Mbps camcorder out, then you can start pushing your "theory" again. At this point, I am not too hopeful about its HD2000 60p output with only 24Mbps, and I suspect they are probably using Baseline Profile again for this low bitrate (relatively speaking, as 60p has twice the data as 60i, where Canon already uses 24Mbps). Anyways, I would keep an open mind and wait for real test samples.

And yes, I have downloaded various original video footage of HD1010 from the web, and its artifact in motion video is fairly obvious (blockiness, fuzziness); and definitely more than my HF100.
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post #30 of 791 Old 02-05-2009, 11:50 PM
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From what I can tell from reading on the internet, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, is that H.264/AVC codec has 3 basic properties: Level, profile, and bitrate. I honestly don't know the exact differences in the levels and profiles, but it would seem that blu ray is level 5.1, high profile, with max bitrate 40 mpbs. AVCHD is variable, depending on who's AVCHD standard you're talking about. I believe Sony is main profile, level 4.0, and max bitrate 17 mpbs. Canon is high profile, level 4.1, and max bitrate 24 mpbs. Again they're all the same codec recorded onto a m2ts file, just with different properties. I guess the main advantage for AVCHD standard is that it can be burned to a DVD. You wouldn't be able to burn a level 5.1, high profile m2ts file on anything other than blu ray. Just like blu ray requires a certain disc structure, so does AVCHD. With Sanyo you're still using the H.264/AVC codec, but the question is what profile, level, and bitrate? I don't know. I'm not sure though that there's anything to suggest that it will be easier to edit or have better quality than either Canon or Sony. In the end though the quality in its picture may be entirely up to the quality of its lense, rather than the properties of its codec. Again, I'm a bit of a newbie in this area, so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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