60i vs 50i and 25P vs. 30/24p - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 02-12-2009, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys!


After reading some good reviews of the Canon HF100, I have decided to get one here in springs while I still can.

One thing however had come to mind - The euro version have 50i and 25P while the American version have 60i, 30p and 24p.

The big question is - for subjects in motion e.g sports, and e.g for panning - will there be a big difference between 50i and 60i?

And for 25p vs 30p.?

I understand the lower framerate will have the benefit under worse lighting conditions, but good motion is important for me.
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post #2 of 24 Old 02-12-2009, 04:54 PM
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50i,25p are PAL standards (for those countries that support PAL)
60i,30p are NTSC standards (for the countries that support NTSC) Japan, USA etc
50i and 25p are both 25 frames per second, 50i is interlaced and made up of 50 fields (half frames) per second 1st field odd, 2nd field even

60i and 30p works exactly the same way on 30 frames per second.

24p is more universally accepted, but not a television standard, it is the film standard, and it is digital video adapting to the film standard to avoid having a pulldown, and being able to watch movies in their native frame rate. Traditionally, you WON'T see regular TV shows shot in 24fps.

Get whatever is native to your country. If you are on the PAL system, get the 50i/25p. If you are on NTSC system, get the 60i/30p model.
And the difference between P and I. They say that if all else is equal (including resolution), the P (progressive scan) will appear to be more flicker-free and a higher resolution than Interlaced.
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post #3 of 24 Old 02-12-2009, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevypower View Post

50i,25p are PAL standards (for those countries that support PAL)
60i,30p are NTSC standards (for the countries that support NTSC) Japan, USA etc
50i and 25p are both 25 frames per second, 50i is interlaced and made up of 50 fields (half frames) per second 1st field odd, 2nd field even

60i and 30p works exactly the same way on 30 frames per second.

24p is more universally accepted, but not a television standard, it is the film standard, and it is digital video adapting to the film standard to avoid having a pulldown, and being able to watch movies in their native frame rate. Traditionally, you WON'T see regular TV shows shot in 24fps.

Get whatever is native to your country. If you are on the PAL system, get the 50i/25p. If you are on NTSC system, get the 60i/30p model.
And the difference between P and I. They say that if all else is equal (including resolution), the P (progressive scan) will appear to be more flicker-free and a higher resolution than Interlaced.

But what about the different in frame rates for motion???
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post #4 of 24 Old 02-12-2009, 05:28 PM
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I don't think you will see any difference between 50i and 60i - but that could be just me. In Oz you should be able to be happy with either, but as I said, in the US.. PAL stuff just doesn't work.
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post #5 of 24 Old 02-12-2009, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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hmm ok. Thanks

Now I just need to worry about that Rolling shutter effect of CMOS. I can not believe that if it is that bad consumers have not protested....
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post #6 of 24 Old 02-12-2009, 09:23 PM
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Protest? After seeing VHS-C as a popular choice for consumer camcorders, though I had the more stable Video 8,
Moving on to Mini DV, consumers have nothing to really complain about anymore!
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post #7 of 24 Old 02-13-2009, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevypower View Post

Protest? After seeing VHS-C as a popular choice for consumer camcorders, though I had the more stable Video 8,
Moving on to Mini DV, consumers have nothing to really complain about anymore!

Quality wise you are right, but I when I was shooting VHS (and not C) I did not see wobble effects)
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post #8 of 24 Old 02-13-2009, 09:15 AM
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So which brands/models do you think suffer from the wobble? Canons?

Reunite Pangea!
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post #9 of 24 Old 02-13-2009, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop View Post

So which brands/models do you think suffer from the wobble? Canons?

Well, from what I read the last days, it is all CMOS based cams...
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post #10 of 24 Old 02-13-2009, 11:22 AM
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jvc sells some ccd-based mpeg2 camcorders.


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post #11 of 24 Old 02-14-2009, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osv View Post

jvc sells some ccd-based mpeg2 camcorders.

I now have my eyes on the Panasonic SD9, it has 3CCD, but only 1/6" - so now I am just concerned about its performance in low lightning, like living room conditions...
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post #12 of 24 Old 02-14-2009, 08:15 AM
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The SD9 does not have a cold shoe, so a right-angle bracket, with an LED light is cheap, and does the trick nicely.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1204332008574

An LED flashlight yields great area coverage, cold light, correctable by editing software, or sometimes by the camcorder itself.
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post #13 of 24 Old 03-03-2010, 02:18 AM
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I live in europe and I'm thinking if I should import a 60i model to have smoother videos....
I remember I could see the difference in smoothness between PAL and NTSC games....
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-29-2010, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugrist View Post

I live in europe and I'm thinking if I should import a 60i model to have smoother videos....
I remember I could see the difference in smoothness between PAL and NTSC games....

i am still out on this 50 vs 60 issue.

does the 10 xtra frames per second give better motion???? e.g is it worth importing a US model to EU???


I will publish on the web anyway, like in 720p@60p
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-29-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

i am still out on this 50 vs 60 issue.

does the 10 xtra frames per second give better motion???? e.g is it worth importing a US model to EU???


I will publish on the web anyway, like in 720p@60p

I doubt you will see 50p or 60p anywhere on the net. In most cases it will be either 25p or 30p. Yes, a 60Hz cam has the edge, 30p is smoother than 25p, but it all depends on how you are going to shoot. Movies are fine at 24/25 fps. On the other hand, YouTube offers variable frame rate encoding for sources that are faster than 30 images per second, it can go as high as 55 fps in my testing. So... uploading 50p may work just fine. No big difference either way. Buy one that is cheaper.
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post #16 of 24 Old 10-29-2010, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

i am still out on this 50 vs 60 issue.

does the 10 xtra frames per second give better motion???? e.g is it worth importing a US model to EU???


I will publish on the web anyway, like in 720p@60p

That probably depends more on your display and brain. Most current web options don't do more than 30p, so kind of moot. Also not well suited for the web since more frames equals more bits.

But since the bitrate seems to be maxed out, 50p will have more bits than 60p to record it's content. So it might look better (slightly). Where the 60p will have more frames so it might move smoother (slightly). For web content, about all that matters is compression. And 24p has the fewest required bits and the best image / less grain, and therefor the best compression. Not that 25p is much different.

It really depends on if you're going for max resolution or not, and who you want to share your stuff with. If you want to watch it in your car (but not while you're driving) and you live in a PAL country, get a PAL version. If it's only web, and only PC playback, it doesn't really matter. As long as said PC is good enough to playback (in realtime) the content. Most of the PAL vs. NTSC issues will be sharing (or selling) your content.
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post #17 of 24 Old 11-02-2010, 02:06 AM
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What about shooting with NTSC camcorder in PAL country, indoors, with artificial light?
I've heard the flickering due to different frequencies can be very strong, but I've never seen any real life comparison.

There is no doubt camcorders in NTSC countries sell a lot cheaper than in PAL countries.

BTW it seems that video DSRLs can be set to 50i/p or 60i/p no matter where they are bought, why is this not the case with camcorders? Or maybe I'm wrong (hopefully)?
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post #18 of 24 Old 11-02-2010, 08:20 AM
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That's always an issue with some artificial lights like fluorescents. PAL countries have power at 50Hz, where NTSC video is 60Hz (60p). So the pulsing of lights are out of sync and you can see scrolling of shadows with relation to the lights, not the camcorders orientation or sensor. You can bypass it with DC powered lighting, natural light, and other means. But still problematic with computer screens and stuff.

Rolling shutter aka jello / skew is a function of the shutter and sensor traits. Most consumer cameras don't have global shutters, so it'll always be an issue. Basically don't bump the camera, don't do fast pans, and you can mostly cope. But for things mounted to a moving vehicle, very problematic. Or action sports and critter cams. Basically the low end tech isn't good enough to venture much past talking heads sitting at a desk.
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post #19 of 24 Old 11-09-2010, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just checking up on flourescent and it appears that most "flicker" at 20.000 to 30.000Hz, not 50 or 60hz, so they should not be a problem for any camcorder. More of a problem old fashioned bulbs that flicker at 50/60hz. :-)


Besides wondering about 50 vs 60fps impact for motion, now I was thinking of if there is any difference in exposure? In other words, if you have to expose 60 frame per second instead of 50, then the individual frame should have slightly less exposure time - right?? Or just how is the relationship between frame rate and shutter on a camcorder? I am coming from a stills background :-)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post

That's always an issue with some artificial lights like fluorescents. PAL countries have power at 50Hz, where NTSC video is 60Hz (60p). So the pulsing of lights are out of sync and you can see scrolling of shadows with relation to the lights, not the camcorders orientation or sensor. You can bypass it with DC powered lighting, natural light, and other means. But still problematic with computer screens and stuff.

Rolling shutter aka jello / skew is a function of the shutter and sensor traits. Most consumer cameras don't have global shutters, so it'll always be an issue. Basically don't bump the camera, don't do fast pans, and you can mostly cope. But for things mounted to a moving vehicle, very problematic. Or action sports and critter cams. Basically the low end tech isn't good enough to venture much past talking heads sitting at a desk.

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post #20 of 24 Old 11-11-2010, 12:12 AM
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Some time back I did a test with my Sanyo HD2000 on the flicker effect of using an NTSC camcorder in PAL land and you can see my result in this thread of my Blog. Not sure if it would be the same for other brands of camcorder.


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post #21 of 24 Old 11-14-2010, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!
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post #22 of 24 Old 11-15-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I doubt you will see 50p or 60p anywhere on the net. In most cases it will be either 25p or 30p. Yes, a 60Hz cam has the edge, 30p is smoother than 25p, but it all depends on how you are going to shoot. Movies are fine at 24/25 fps. On the other hand, YouTube offers variable frame rate encoding for sources that are faster than 30 images per second, it can go as high as 55 fps in my testing. So... uploading 50p may work just fine. No big difference either way. Buy one that is cheaper.

--------------
Hi, is there a way (workaround) to create 1080p 25 (pal) AVCHD/DVD instead of 1080i 50 current format for that type of "hybrid" disc
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post #23 of 24 Old 11-15-2010, 04:14 PM
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Every progressive rate faster than 1080p24 is against AVCHD and Blu-ray specs. But you can do 1080p25 as PSF and encode it as "1080i50".
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post #24 of 24 Old 11-15-2010, 06:36 PM
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I have recently come across this thread:

http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.ph...d2b56a&start=0

It suggests that it is not the frame rate that matters (50/60p/i) but the shutter speed that causes flickering. As I understand it even with NTSC camcorder in PAL land flickering can be avoided as long as the shutter speed can be manually set to 1/50 (or multiple, although some flicker may still appear).

Can anybody attest to it?
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