Kodak's 1080p pocket camcorder - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 246 Old 03-23-2010, 04:55 PM
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Considering its price point, I think it would serve well for "fooling around" video. If I were to get something for personal use, I would splurge for a handheld and not go pocketcam route...

I experienced the same difficulty trying to use the Zi8 so that's why I returned it. The biggest flaw is the lack of sharp focus on anything from 1 to 4 foot from the fixed focus lens. I bought a new Sanyo HD1010 for $325 and am very pleased with it. I guess I was dreaming to think that I could get an HD camcorder for $150. I must say though that the numerous reviews praising the Zi8 were misleading. For just quick videos like you say 'fooling around' it's ok but for anything you want to keep I would get a camcorder with more features and better performance.
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post #182 of 246 Old 03-23-2010, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by templetun View Post

Ok, only thing that worked was Super. Tried default settings and the output turned out to be 7 times smaller than the original file size. So I cranked up the bitrate. The video plays well in WMP and........it works in WMM. Didn't try Live.

I think the original video codec used by the Kodak zi8 is H.264/AVC, so I selected that. I have included a pic of the Super settings if anyone cares to comment or offer suggestions. I really didn't want to do any of this, but if I can get a re-encoded version as untouched as possible to the original, and have it work in WMM, I will suffice. Man, always problems huh?

Can WMP or WMM handle MP4s? If so, I would suggest to export your MOVs from Quicktime as MP4s, with the "passthrough" option. This way, your video files won't need to be re-encoded. The quality will remain the same as first generation MOV, and you won't have to waste time re-encoding. I hope this helps.
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post #183 of 246 Old 03-23-2010, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by templetun View Post

Ok, so installer FF again and now there is video and it plays in WMP but no video in MMM nor Live. Could it be a codec problem for WMM? Gonna try Super now.

Might as well offer my thoughts on the camera: (Keep in mind I only used face detection=on and Image stabilization=on)

Filmed at the beach the other day. Set on 1080P. I tried to keep the camera as still as possible. Played the MOV files raw (just dropped them onto the desktop) through quicktime. Viewed on work monitor, home monitor and on my 40" sony 1080p set. They all had the same results. It seems as though it is dropping frames. It doesn't seem to play that smooth. If you were to keep the camera on a tripod the video would be spectacular, but it seems that even the slightest movement will cause a blur in detail. The shots where the camera was steady did look unbelievable. You could see every grain of sand. Maybe watching the videos on a tv with 120 or 240 hz would help the blur. I might just shoot everything at the 720P 60 fps setting and see how that looks. Overall, I think the camera will serve it's purpose for work related things.

The user interface, imo, is terrible. They could have easily put text on the screen to explain the icons. Very basic control. the Macro button is in a weird place. Macro adjusts whether you want to focus on near or far objects. I would imagine if you had to change this while you are filming you would hear the "click" as you move the slider and it would be impossible to keep the cam from moving.

Considering its price point, I think it would serve well for "fooling around" video. If I were to get something for personal use, I would splurge for a handheld and not go pocketcam route, hoping that the image stabilization and blur reduction would be better. I would also stay away from this MOV format. Never again!

Camera came with latest firmware installed, version 1.06

Anyone have better results with image stable and face detection both off?

Yes, I've noticed that with face detection and image stabilization off, the picture has less artifacts and "hunting".

About the Zi8, it is what it is, a really handy very useful pocketcam. I'm not sure if I would go up to just a HD1010, If I were spending more I'd go all the way up to a real camcorder like the midrange Canon's...

BTW, I agree that the Zi8 doesn't focus between 1 and 5 feet making it rather useless for YouTube videoblogs.

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post #184 of 246 Old 03-24-2010, 02:22 AM
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"Just an HD1010" ? Please Roberto. Canon isn't a little slice of camcorder heaven. Yes Canon and Sony and Panasonic make great camcorders but at what price.

Here's a few review quotes on the Sanyo Xacti HD1010;

"Superb image quality for the asking price" Good gear guide

"Smaller than most camcorders; easy-to-use interface; wide variety of shooting modes; hot shoe for accessories; cables included; great video clarity; excellent still photos" Macworld

"Going solely by video performance, the Sanyo HD1010 is a remarkable ultra-compact camcorder, producing the best images our lab has seen from a device of its size." Camcorder info

"Score 91 Excellent" Ala Test

I love the form factor of the HD1010. It has an ergonomic shape. The real icing on the cake is the price. I paid $325 including shipping. For a camcorder that originally retailed for $800 that's a steal.
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post #185 of 246 Old 03-24-2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfmeister View Post

I experienced the same difficulty trying to use the Zi8 so that's why I returned it. The biggest flaw is the lack of sharp focus on anything from 1 to 4 foot from the fixed focus lens. I bought a new Sanyo HD1010 for $325 and am very pleased with it. I guess I was dreaming to think that I could get an HD camcorder for $150. I must say though that the numerous reviews praising the Zi8 were misleading. For just quick videos like you say 'fooling around' it's ok but for anything you want to keep I would get a camcorder with more features and better performance.

Yeah, +1 on that. I thought a pocketcam was a camcorder that could fit in your pocket. 2 totally different things.
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post #186 of 246 Old 03-24-2010, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tightrope View Post

Can WMP or WMM handle MP4s? If so, I would suggest to export your MOVs from Quicktime as MP4s, with the "passthrough" option. This way, your video files won't need to be re-encoded. The quality will remain the same as first generation MOV, and you won't have to waste time re-encoding. I hope this helps.

Thanks for the help, but those feature you are talking about are only available on the non-free version of quicktime.
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post #187 of 246 Old 03-24-2010, 07:12 AM
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Well, I did a test of both 720 & 1080 with & without Image stab & FD. I did not notice much of a difference with IS & FD. The video seemed unchanged whether they were on or off. I didn't like any 30 fps format (720 or 1080). The 60 FPS is the best format to record in. I found the 60fps dramatically reduced the motion blur and the video was much more smooth.

The pictures it takes are really no different then a cell phone at say, 3.2 mpxs.
In fact, the video, also reminds me of the vid my cell phone takes (lg envy touch/Dare). If my cell phone took video at 1080, the performance would be comparable to the zi8, or perhaps any pocketcam.

I just cannot keep this thing steady at all. Before this I shot on a Panasonic MiniDV and the filming was tight. Maybe a little too stiff. Was the panny THAT much better at image stabilization or was the style easier to hold which helped I.S.? I cannot keep the zi8 steady while walking at all.

An interview with good lighting on a tripod, assuming the people aren't moving around a lot, 720p 60fps, is where this camera is at.

My boss want me to film him driving in his car as we do a video tour "How to enter the Campus". Yeah, ...this isn't going to come out.
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post #188 of 246 Old 03-24-2010, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by templetun View Post

Thanks for the help, but those feature you are talking about are only available on the non-free version of quicktime.

Correct, but Quicktime Pro only costs $30. Plus you can do some simple editing directly in the player, and the resulting video can be exported without any loss of quality (no lengthy re-encoding.) It works for my needs and I recommend it.
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post #189 of 246 Old 03-24-2010, 06:31 PM
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just got playsport..one big downer for me..the files won't play in my PS3. i usually just save my files on my portable hard drive and let the PS3 play everything (movies,photos,music). i just can't believe the files wont' play..AVHCD, mkv are recognized by PS3. With the file format playsport is coming out .mov this is a big downside..i don't want to add extra step converting files. will be returning this item tomorrow...back to the drawing board..(either Flip Ultra HD or jump to Sanyo HD2000)
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post #190 of 246 Old 03-26-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tightrope View Post

Correct, but Quicktime Pro only costs $30. Plus you can do some simple editing directly in the player, and the resulting video can be exported without any loss of quality (no lengthy re-encoding.) It works for my needs and I recommend it.

I will look into this, thanks. For work related editing, title overlays, cutting, and basic transistion effects, Windows Movie Maker (not Live) has yet to dissapoint. Of course other than it refusing to take MOV files. I can't imagine I would want to do that much editing for personal movies, maybe that Quicktime feature would be worth it.

The Quicktime would have to export to a different format to be worth it to me, what format do you use?
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post #191 of 246 Old 03-26-2010, 10:11 AM
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just got playsport..one big downer for me..the files won't play in my PS3. i usually just save my files on my portable hard drive and let the PS3 play everything (movies,photos,music). i just can't believe the files wont' play..AVHCD, mkv are recognized by PS3. With the file format playsport is coming out .mov this is a big downside..i don't want to add extra step converting files. will be returning this item tomorrow...back to the drawing board..(either Flip Ultra HD or jump to Sanyo HD2000)

Yeah, I tried playing the files in my ps3 too, right after my 360. Best I have found is to use either Handbrake or Format factory. Very easy, but somewhat long to encode. Resulting quality seems the same to me.


You can fool around with the encoding features all you want, but for me I just want to keep it simple. Handbrake actually exports an mp4 file larger than the source. I'm actually fine with that. HB is super easy. I attached jpegs with little indications on how I do it.
Format factory- select either mp4 or avi. Both have worked great.

It seems Kodak has really favored Apple computers here with this MOV file format. Windows just flat out doesn't like it. I'm sure iMovie has no problems accepting raw mov. Gee, thank Kodak.
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post #192 of 246 Old 03-26-2010, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by templetun View Post

I will look into this, thanks. For work related editing, title overlays, cutting, and basic transistion effects, Windows Movie Maker (not Live) has yet to dissapoint. Of course other than it refusing to take MOV files. I can't imagine I would want to do that much editing for personal movies, maybe that Quicktime feature would be worth it.

The Quicktime would have to export to a different format to be worth it to me, what format do you use?

I export as MP4 (using the "passthrough" option, so no re-encoding.) This format seems more universal, the USB media reading feature of my LG BD390 Blu-Ray player recognizes it. To summarize my process, I edit my MOV files in Quicktime Pro, export the resulting video as MP4, save it to my Seagate Free Agent hard drive, and play the movies via USB on my BD player.
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post #193 of 246 Old 03-31-2010, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfmeister View Post

"Just an HD1010" ? Please Roberto. Canon isn't a little slice of camcorder heaven. Yes Canon and Sony and Panasonic make great camcorders but at what price.

Here's a few review quotes on the Sanyo Xacti HD1010;

"Superb image quality for the asking price" Good gear guide

"Smaller than most camcorders; easy-to-use interface; wide variety of shooting modes; hot shoe for accessories; cables included; great video clarity; excellent still photos" Macworld

"Going solely by video performance, the Sanyo HD1010 is a remarkable ultra-compact camcorder, producing the best images our lab has seen from a device of its size." Camcorder info

"Score 91 Excellent" Ala Test

I love the form factor of the HD1010. It has an ergonomic shape. The real icing on the cake is the price. I paid $325 including shipping. For a camcorder that originally retailed for $800 that's a steal.

Oops, my bad. I was thinking of the CG10. I stand corrected...

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post #194 of 246 Old 04-02-2010, 10:42 AM
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Oops, my bad. I was thinking of the CG10. I stand corrected...

I got CG10..for $129 to me it's ways better than the Flips, Kodaks price/feature wise..i returned the Kodak Playsport.
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post #195 of 246 Old 04-02-2010, 11:36 PM
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See ya just have to be careful where you step around here. Almost any direction and you will step on somebodies foot.
As a former Zi8 owner I must agree that the CG10 looks much better. The CG10 has a glass lens vs a plastic lens on all of the pocket cams. The only advantage the pocket cams have is that I treat my HD1010 with greater respect than I did the Kodak. The Kodak doesn't even have a lens cap so that must mean it's indestructible! Many years ago Kodak meant quality. They imported lenses from Germany and the cameras were expensive. I've seen them in museums.
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post #196 of 246 Old 04-03-2010, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tightrope View Post

I export as MP4 (using the "passthrough" option, so no re-encoding.) This format seems more universal, the USB media reading feature of my LG BD390 Blu-Ray player recognizes it. To summarize my process, I edit my MOV files in Quicktime Pro, export the resulting video as MP4, save it to my Seagate Free Agent hard drive, and play the movies via USB on my BD player.

Editing the files created by the Zi8 is probably the biggest headache for me.

I have tried the following.

Renaming them to mp4 and opening them in Vegas. That seems to work but I can't find an output format to render to that maintains the quality of the original - there doesn't appear to be a passthru option.

Opening and editing them in avidemux. That also works and there is a passthru save option. But when I try to encode them as more standard H.264 using the builting encode, the output is unplayable. The only output format that's worked for me is XVID and if I set the bitrate high enough the PQ is pretty good.

Encoding them with x264.exe via Megui. The encode seems to work okay but when I mux the audio back, it's all out of sync. Plus the 59.9fps 720P setting makes life difficult.

Encoding with the Arcsoft software provided with the camera. As expected that works fine and a reasonable PQ is maintained but there are no options for editing it.

[Update]

I worked out I could render in Vegas to H.264 using either ffdshow or X264vfw codecs. However (and I have found others who have experienced this) there appears to be a bug in Vegas that causes the video and audio to go randomly out of sync. By random I mean randoml across different files from the Zi8 but constant in each file. It's a pain but I found if I render just a loop and play it back it's usually easy enough to see how much correction you need in the timeline (usually the audio follows the video) so you ungroup the audio/video and delay the video by the delay (I have seen from 1-2s).
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post #197 of 246 Old 04-04-2010, 01:32 PM
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If I were buying today, I would go with today's WOOT deal on the Samsung HMXH100 for $200 over the Zi8.
Real zoom, 1080p 60i, small and nice quality (but a very slow autofocus). A step up from the Zi8.

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post #198 of 246 Old 04-04-2010, 02:06 PM
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If I were buying today, I would go with today's WOOT deal on the Samsung HMXH100 for $200 over the Zi8.
Real zoom, 1080p 60i, small and nice quality (but a very slow autofocus). A step up from the Zi8.

Not sure they are in the same category. The Zi8 (for all its pains in getting video off) is small and you can stick it your pocket. Couple that with the wide angle lens you can get for $10 and the Sony clone external mic, it makes a great tool for portable video. The Samsung, OTA, while having clearly improved specs, isn't something I would or could carry around with me. If I wanted a true HD camcorder I would look at different models again.
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post #199 of 246 Old 04-04-2010, 06:45 PM
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I must say Robert that you are absolutely correct that for $200 the Samsung is the most camcorder you can buy. Yes I prefer the form factor of my Sanyo HD1010 and the mic input and the headphone jack and the better low light and so forth but for close to the same price of the Zi8, the Samsung is a true HD camcorder with a real Schneider lens and a real 10x zoom. No you can't put it in your pocket but maybe a real HD camcorder can't be put in your pocket and have the features that most people expect such as a real zoom. The lowest price I saw on the Samsung is $300 so the woot price is truly a deal.
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post #200 of 246 Old 04-05-2010, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

Editing the files created by the Zi8 is probably the biggest headache for me.

I have tried the following.

Renaming them to mp4 and opening them in Vegas. That seems to work but I can't find an output format to render to that maintains the quality of the original - there doesn't appear to be a passthru option.

Opening and editing them in avidemux. That also works and there is a passthru save option. But when I try to encode them as more standard H.264 using the builting encode, the output is unplayable. The only output format that's worked for me is XVID and if I set the bitrate high enough the PQ is pretty good.

Encoding them with x264.exe via Megui. The encode seems to work okay but when I mux the audio back, it's all out of sync. Plus the 59.9fps 720P setting makes life difficult.

Encoding with the Arcsoft software provided with the camera. As expected that works fine and a reasonable PQ is maintained but there are no options for editing it.

[Update]

I worked out I could render in Vegas to H.264 using either ffdshow or X264vfw codecs. However (and I have found others who have experienced this) there appears to be a bug in Vegas that causes the video and audio to go randomly out of sync. By random I mean randoml across different files from the Zi8 but constant in each file. It's a pain but I found if I render just a loop and play it back it's usually easy enough to see how much correction you need in the timeline (usually the audio follows the video) so you ungroup the audio/video and delay the video by the delay (I have seen from 1-2s).

According to the analysis by the Super program, the format of the zi8's MOV files are mp4 files with AVC codecs. So, I'm not really sure if any processing is done at all if you output to mp4.

Give handbrake a try. It's free and I didn't have to change any settings at all. Works supub so far in WMM.
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post #201 of 246 Old 04-05-2010, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

Not sure they are in the same category. The Zi8 (for all its pains in getting video off) is small and you can stick it your pocket. Couple that with the wide angle lens you can get for $10 and the Sony clone external mic, it makes a great tool for portable video. The Samsung, OTA, while having clearly improved specs, isn't something I would or could carry around with me. If I wanted a true HD camcorder I would look at different models again.

Where can I get that wide angle lens? Do I have to glue it on?


Also, I looked around for the fake sony mic on ebay but purchasing it looks kind of shady. Is there another place to get them besides ebay?
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post #202 of 246 Old 04-05-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by templetun View Post

According to the analysis by the Super program, the format of the zi8's MOV files are mp4 files with AVC codecs. So, I'm not really sure if any processing is done at all if you output to mp4.

Give handbrake a try. It's free and I didn't have to change any settings at all. Works supub so far in WMM.

I am familar with Handbrake. But it doesn't edit files so it doesn't really help unless all I want to do is to re-encode them. The supplied Arcsoft program does that fine.

So far all I have been able to do re editing is to use avidemux and then encode back asa xvid. There seems to be a strange bug in avidemux if I try to encode as H.264 - the video loses significant quality no matter what settings I use.
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post #203 of 246 Old 04-05-2010, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by templetun View Post

Where can I get that wide angle lens? Do I have to glue it on?


Also, I looked around for the fake sony mic on ebay but purchasing it looks kind of shady. Is there another place to get them besides ebay?


I got mine from www.dealextreme.com. I was going to post an actual link to the device but at this time the site is timing out for some reason apart from the front page.

You don't glue anything on - you get a small magnetic ring with double sided tape you affix to the area around the camera lens. Then the wide angle and macro lens (actually only the macro since the wide angle screws into the macro lens to make the wide angle capability) just stick to the ring via magnetism. It's very unobtrusive if not being used and is reasonably secure.

I ordered the mic from ebay - didn't look that shady to me unless you count a fake Sony mic as shady!

[edit]

The link for the macro/wide angle lens is here

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.14953

I just saw they have a 2X Zoom lens which I might get

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15617
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post #204 of 246 Old 04-05-2010, 05:50 PM
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Also, I looked around for the fake sony mic on ebay but purchasing it looks kind of shady. Is there another place to get them besides ebay?

I bought one for $6 and I received it 2 weeks later (shipped from Hong Kong).
Not sure where you can find it other than ebay but why are you reluctant to order it from that site?
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post #205 of 246 Old 04-16-2010, 01:38 PM
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I bought one for $6 and I received it 2 weeks later (shipped from Hong Kong).
Not sure where you can find it other than ebay but why are you reluctant to order it from that site?

hey, sorry for the late response. They mentioned something about being responsible for all unexpected shipped fees, or something like that. it just sounded shady, but I guess if I have no choice.

Man what BS dealing with MOV and WMM. So now, I used both handbrake and format factory to convert MOV to mp4. They import and work with WMM, but trying to view sped-up video in the project isn't pretty. It stutters all over the place. Fine. When it does produce a video, it plays smoothly. But 50% of the time it hangs when it's producing the video. It managed to complete once. I uploaded it to youtube and it is out of sync.

I am thinking I have to say goodbye to WMM and move on to a program that accepts the mov and forget about multiple conversions.

I tried Sony Vegas, Pinnacle 14, and Adobe Elements. Must have missed the PhD. training classes on them. Don't know why they have to make them so $#@! complicated!

Tried cyberlink Power Director, and it seemed to click. I seemed to understand it almost immediately. We will see how that goes.
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post #206 of 246 Old 04-16-2010, 05:12 PM
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..

I tried Sony Vegas, Pinnacle 14, and Adobe Elements. Must have missed the PhD. training classes on them. Don't know why they have to make them so $#@! complicated!

Tried cyberlink Power Director, and it seemed to click. I seemed to understand it almost immediately. We will see how that goes.

It's a pain editing the stuff but I have had luck with Avidemux which is free. Just rename the files from mov to mp4 and it seems to import them fine and you can edit stuff out and just copy it out to another file or apply some encoding using a different codec

Also Vegas 9 seems to work - well at least the trial copy I have. But Vegas doesn't have a copy option so I encoded to a HD format which is profile in Vegas and that looked pretty good. Once again I had to rename to MP4 and then there's a Quicktime patch you that might need to hear audio in Vegas when editing.
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post #207 of 246 Old 04-16-2010, 10:15 PM
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Thinking about buying this pocketcam. Or maybe just wait for a new Flip model to come out.
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post #208 of 246 Old 04-17-2010, 01:35 AM
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Thinking about buying this pocketcam. Or maybe just wait for a new Flip model to come out.

A new Flip just came out last week,,, its called the "Flip Mino HD Slide" the only differences really are it has more memory and a slide out 3" LCD screen to watch your recorded video's on,,,, for me I will just stick with my Mino HD second generation and my Kodak Zi8.

If I need somthing with more than 2 hours of memory I use my Zi8 and I always watch my recorded video on my PC so I do really care about the slide out screen on the new Flip.

The Kodak Zi8 and the Flip Mino HD second gereration are both great little pocket cams,,, just go with the one that has the features you need or want.

Cheers
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post #209 of 246 Old 04-19-2010, 07:58 AM
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It's a pain editing the stuff but I have had luck with Avidemux which is free. Just rename the files from mov to mp4 and it seems to import them fine and you can edit stuff out and just copy it out to another file or apply some encoding using a different codec

Also Vegas 9 seems to work - well at least the trial copy I have. But Vegas doesn't have a copy option so I encoded to a HD format which is profile in Vegas and that looked pretty good. Once again I had to rename to MP4 and then there's a Quicktime patch you that might need to hear audio in Vegas when editing.

For projects where I need to just chop the beginning & end, I will prob just use the Arcsoft. But I have this big video project which deals with multiple edits, title overlays, separate audio with fades in & out and multiple sped-up parts.

The regular MOV file plays fine in youtube. The mp4's (converting mov to mp4 using format factory) also play fine in youtube. The sync problem is happening im WMM when it is converting mp4 to wmv.
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post #210 of 246 Old 04-28-2010, 07:02 AM
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Hey tightrope, what are the settings that you used to convert MOV through Quicktime. Just bought pro. tried a couple conversions but the results were sub par. Tried the "Passthrough" option but the video quality was very degraded.

I wonder if my trouble is because I shot in the 60 fps mode?...
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