Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

I will work with my buddy to continue testing the Panny TM700's fan noise and will hopefully produce better "quieter" results

In the camcorderinfo.com test of the TM700, in the comments section, Jeremy Stamas (the reviewer), stated that the fan noise wasn't an issue. Perhaps the fan did not come on in their testing, as it did in yours. It seems that if the fan needs to come on to cool the camcorder, it would not be a good idea to close the LCD over the fan, as that might lead to overheating. I wonder if the fan is more likely to come on during 1080 60p recording?
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post #272 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by calessi View Post

Regarding the fan noise...has anyone considered using BIAS SoundSoap with their editing software to eliminate this? I shoot in a studio that has airconditioning fan noise in the background, and SoundSoap does a perfect job of eliminating this. It's also extremely easy to use. I just plug it in to the audio track that I record the Talent's voice on, have it briefly "learn" the noise of the fan, and it completely scrubs it out.

The tricky part is trying to clean up Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks, which very well may be embedded in the files coming out of this camcorder. Will SoundSoap handle those without losing too much quality?
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post #273 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

That's what I implied before. I'm almost certain that one of the reasons Sanyo were able to release 1080 60p camcorders that long ago for a good price was because they avoided a certain European tax law that restricts the recording capacity. Now they could have just put that limitation on only European models like what Panasonic did to the GH1 but it might have been more expansive to produce camcorders that are more different than just the NTSC or PAL formats.

It looks like Canon does the same thing with their DSLR cameras.


From another forum is the following statement:

"... the EU (European Union) is a Customs union where every member country applies the same tariffs on imported goods according to commonly agreed rules. There is an import tariff on camcorders which is higher than that on digital cameras so the EU has arbitrarily decided that any device capable of recording both still images and moving images for more than 30 minutes is classified as a camcorder, and anything less than 30 minutes as a digital camera."

The camcorders have an extra approximately 4.6% extra tax.

The Sanyo's are not restricted in recording time to 30 minutes or less. For example, I have done locked down shots that were over 36 minutes long in 1080 60i. The limitation was a 4 GB file size limit. If I had used 720p, the recording time would have been even longer. Based on this, the Sanyos are camcorders, and not digital cameras.

Again, just want to make sure that Sanyo gets credit for bringing 1080 60p to market in a low cost camcorder. The Panasonic offers many features that the Sanyo does not, and would be a better choice for some. The Sanyo would be a better choice for others. There is no one perfect camcorder out there. We all have to choose a camcorder that has the least compromises for our purposes. I do a lot of travel to remote places, so GPS in the camcorder is a desirable feature for me, but irrelevant for many others. Some need a wired remote for doing serious work on a tripod. That is available with the high end Sony and Canon camcorders, but not the Panasonic. Some need a hot accessory shoe for lights and mics. Some camcorders have that feature, some don't.

It is clear that the top consumer camcorders from Sony, Canon and Panasonic can take amazing footage. Choosing the model really is determined by what specific features are important to you. The features you need for shooting a film are not necessarily the same as those needed for shooting vacation footage. If I were shooting as part of a for profit business, I think I woudn't even bother with these higher end consumer models, but step up to a prosumer model, with XLR inputs, hardwired manual audio controls, etc.

Lower end (less $$) consumer camcorders, including the Sanyos and lower end models from the other manufacturers, are also often capable of taking great footage, but with more limitations and less flexibility. I have owned Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Sanyo camcorders, and don't really have a brand preference. All of the camcorders worked without problems, except for two of the three Canons I owned. An old Hi8 L1 and the HDV HV20 both eventually died. I would still be OK with buying another Canon. I am not going to condemn a brand based on two data points out of millions of camcorders sold.
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post #274 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 04:32 PM
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If you look at my posting history you'll see that I tend to recommend Sanyo camcorders a lot because of how cheep they are compared to other camcorders. I find it very significant that they were able to offer 1080 60p before anybody else but their might be a legal reason for Panasonic claiming that.

I do wonder what the top people at Sanyo feel about Panasonic's marketing although Panasonic does fully own them right now and they do work in collaboration.
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post #275 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 04:33 PM
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The Sanyo 1080p60 camcorders Digital Image Stabilizer is a showstopper IMHO. If Sanyo 1080p60 camcorders had the same features as the HDC-TM700 at half the price it would the the #1 selling HD camcorder on the planet. Try finding a Sanyo 1080p60 video as stable as the two HDC-TM700 1080p60 videos here shot from a fast moving boat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-G4JsWFWE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXZ6o...eature=related
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post #276 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 04:34 PM
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The tricky part is trying to clean up Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks, which very well may be embedded in the files coming out of this camcorder. Will SoundSoap handle those without losing too much quality?

I use SoundSoap with a Sony SR12, which records AVCHD video in a m2ts wrapper. I use it in conjunction with an external, stereo microphone. I apply SoundSoap to a specific audio track in my editor (Sony Vegas) that is generated from the mike input, but could apply it apply selectively to any or all audio tracks as required. But...I have had no opportunity to try it out with the TM700. I've also never had a need to apply it to an LFE audio track.
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post #277 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

The Sanyo 1080p60 camcorders Digital Image Stabilizer is a showstopper IMHO. If Sanyo 1080p60 camcorders had the same features as the HDC-TM700 at half the price it would the the #1 selling HD camcorder on the planet. Try finding a Sanyo 1080p60 video as stable as the two HDC-TM700 1080p60 videos here shot from a fast moving boat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-G4JsWFWE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXZ6o...eature=related

Agreed. For many it will be a showstopper. The EIS really doesn't do much, if any, stabilization at all. If you are doing handheld, walking, at anything other than wide angle, the results aren't going to be satisfactory. If you are willing to use a monopod, tripod, or stabilizer, the results are very good. So it depends on your use. My ideal vacation camcorder would be the form factor and size of the Sanyo FH1A, but with the OIS of the high end Sony models. For those who have never handled an FH1A, the TM700, HFS21 and CX550V are huge in comparison.
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post #278 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 07:58 PM
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While I have not yet addressed or resolved the fan noise issue, I can safely say that this camcorder produces an amazingly BREATHTAKING picture quality in day light outdoors or well lit rooms. I honestly could not believe my eyes when I played everything back, it was almost like watching a Discovery HD Theater footage except it was just a boring footage of my neighborhood street and some indoor footage of a couple of rooms in the house. I am 200% satisfied with the motion and still picture quality and would be hard pressed to even think that the new Canons or last years sub-$1000 Sony and JVC camcorders would even come close to the TM700 video quality! I just can't say enough about how amazing my footage looked. It was like staring out the window!


Update on fan noise: closing the LCD panel causes the cam's noise level to increase in a higher faster whining sound rather than just a loud "breath-y" sound with LCD panel open. Also covering the fan vent for just a few seconds made a HUGE difference as if the fan noise was almost nonexistent! However I HIGHLY DO NOT recommend you do that as it will quickly shorten the life of your TM700, this was just a test out of sheer curiousity. The one other thing we found is that even though shootingat 60i still looked great, the fan noise was still there and probably just as loud as te 60P mode. Part of the problem is the fact that the integrated 5.1 Mic is ridiculously over-sensitive so we will work next on adjusting the mic level but I have a hunch that we will just end up buying a shotgun mic and/or use the SoundSoap app that someone else had recommended at the post-production and editing phase.
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post #279 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by burkavs View Post

Just spent 40 incredibly frustrating minutes with clue-less Panasonic customer service / tech support. The insert to the HDC-TM700P manual states:"Panasonic Blue-ray disc players compatible with 1080/60p are DMP-BDT350/DMP-BDT300. (As of Feb. 2010)", sort of implying that other Blue-ray disc players aren't (which would not be a surprise). On the Panasonic web site, there is no blue-ray disc player by that number. The search function "autocorrects" my entry of either of the two numbers to DMP-BD35K.

So I call up the 800 number ("Need help with your online order?", it says on the web page) and instantly find myself in menu hell. The nice computer wants to reset my password, sell me a digital camera, give me an RMA address, all but let me speak to a real live person that would help me and let me purchase the correct blue ray player.
By sitting on the "0" button, I finally reach a live (I think) person, who suggests that I must have copied the above number from the manual incorrectly. When I say "no way" and begin to read the number to her, I get shuttled to somebody else who hazards that the above number might be a blue-ray burner. I explained that I wished to purchase a Panasonic blue ray player guaranteed to work with the new 1080/60p mode, no matter what number the manual gave (a number that appears to be wrong).
I quickly get shuttled to another department (somebody there that she hates?) that turns out to be tech support for laptops (?). The gentleman there was impatient, since my problem clearly has nothing to do with his department, and gives me 201-348-7500 to call where I get connected to "Theresa". Mrs. Theresa proceeded to talk me down from my super-high blood pressure to a merely 'annoyed' stage, and spends about 10 min off-line searching for an answer to make sure I get what I need. She came back after reassuring me several times she was still checking to read me a statement: "All Panasonic blue ray players support the [AVCHD] format". I mention that 1080/60p appears to be outside the format, and why then would there be a statement in the insert to the manual about which blue ray player to buy for 1080/60p? She sighs, and tells me this is all she knows and is supposed to say...

Upshot: The camcorder and its requirements are too new for the support and customer service staff. The player that genuinely supports 1080/60p either does not exit or has not yet been released (my guess).
Anyway, it does not look if I will buy a Panasonic blue ray player (of any kind) in the near future.
Hopefully my call was waking somebody up in Panasonicland, and future inquiries will be answered better, and with more knowledge.

I recorded a video clip in 1080/60p to an SDHC card and the BD60 did not recognize it. On the tm700 there is a 1080/60p->AVCHD(you can select HG/HE/etc) conversion function. I did that and only then did the BD60 recognize the video clip (no longer 1080/60p).
So yep, it seems that only the fancy new unavailable 3D blu ray players can play the 1080/60p recordings without any conversion.
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post #280 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 08:26 PM
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Why not get a PS3? I'm not 100% sure if all 60 frames per second is showing but it's real time at least on mine.
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post #281 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Why not get a PS3? I'm not 100% sure if all 60 frames per second is showing but it's real time at least on mine.

I got the BD60 several months ago for $128. The PS3 ($300) does load faster, but it has other downsides and I barely have time to play any video games (2 kids under 4 yrs old)...but this is getting OT anyways .

btw, I'm not noticing any fan noise really. All of my test recordings have been indoors and very quiet.
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post #282 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by skoor View Post

Back to the fan, did the TM300 have this issue? I never heard anybody/reviews talk about it. And what about Sony or Canon? And it makes the issues with Nikon/Canon DSLR 1080P video lens focusing/zoom noises discussion seem moot. At lest they don't make noise all the time.

The Sony doesn't have a fan, and I don't think that the Canon does. My Sanyo FH1A that can shoot 1080 60p also doesn't have a fan, and it is a very compact camcorder, and has never had a heating problem. I was very surprised to find out from the Camcorderinfo.com review that the TM700 has a fan. Does anyone know of any other consumer or prosumer camcorders that have a fan? I wonder what it is that is specific to the TM700 that it requires a cooling fan.
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post #283 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 09:53 PM
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So is anyone willing to post any fan noise samples?

For sure the 1080 60p seams a bit different than what's in the HD2000A and perhaps the encoder is much stronger to allow for much better picture quality. That can cause extra heating issues and if Panasonic believes that people will be using the 1080 60p mode a lot, their taking extra precautions to constantly cool the camcorder even if 1080 60i or 24p is used. Their is a patent that claims that Panasonic have been working on advanced cooling techniques which is most likely going on the successor of the GH1 and it's rumored to also have 1080 60p.
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post #284 of 3783 Old 03-31-2010, 10:58 PM
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So after reading about the fan noise issue some are having, I decide to try to test this on my TM700. I went to the quietest room I could find and recorded some "silence". I did check and the fan was spinning, and I could hear it. I downloaded the footage, donned my headphones, and played several clips of my silence. I shot 1 at 1080i/HA in iA mode, and 2 in 1080p, one in manual mode with the wind reduction feature turned off and the other in iA mode. If you guys wouldn't have pointed it out I don't think I would ever have heard the fan noise. Yes, there is a very faint background hum in the "silence", but I never noticed it on any "real life" clips. For my uses of shooting the kids around the house, at sporting events, etc I don't think this will be a problem for me. I'm sure other's mileage will vary.

I've posted just the audio portion of the clips on my site for any that want to listen. I demuxed the audio using tsMuxeR so are just straight copies without any re-encode done. The ac3 files do play with the VLC player, I'm sure other players work as well.
http://www.timncindy.com/TM700/00021.track_4352.ac3
http://www.timncindy.com/TM700/00022.track_4352.ac3
http://www.timncindy.com/TM700/00023.track_4352.ac3
Hopefully I can just leave those files up on my site, but if you have problems it may be because I hit my bandwidth cap.
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post #285 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 01:37 AM
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Did you record with the viewfinder (LCD closed) or with the LCD open?

Because the noise doubles when the LCD is closed

I don't know about you guys but this noise is not acceptable at all for me what's the point of 5.1 Audio if it's that noisy...... it remind me of Tape noise era

a sample of the fan noise outdoor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eg_KDLgK3I
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post #286 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 06:07 AM
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For all of my tests the LCD was open.

I could do some tests tonight with it closed and post them if that would be useful.
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post #287 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 07:05 AM
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Okay, NOWI hear what you're talking about. I had played these clips back on my Linux box last night and I guess its just reducing it to plain old stereo sound. When I played it back this morning on my wife's Windows 7 laptop I hear what you are talking about. I still think I can live with it, but now I need to go back an listen to some other things I've shot to see how noticeable it is with real life clips.
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post #288 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 07:43 AM
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I think we all need to make a concerted effort to call Panasonic and voice our opinions so that they may possibly aknowledge and address the fan noise which deems the integrated 5.1 mic useless. Let's all call them and complain hopefully one of us can eventually get to their 2nd or 3rd level support and speak with an engineer or senior technician. The fan noise problem won't disappear on it's own.
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post #289 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sholle View Post

I wonder what it is that is specific to the TM700 that it requires a cooling fan.

The Panasonics continue to use their 3MOS system. First, it is three sensors each (red/green/blue) with the incoming light being split into three separate beams by a prism instead of a single sensor using something like a bayer pattern to get all three colors. Second their MOS sensors aren't technically the same as a standard CMOS sensor.

In short, yes their sensor tech is different compared to the other usual suspects. Evidently, one downside to it is higher heat dissipation requirements and/or the inability to dissipate that heat passively.

-Suntan
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post #290 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

I think we all need to make a concerted effort to call Panasonic and voice our opinions so that they may possibly aknowledge and address the fan noise which deems the integrated 5.1 mic useless. Let's all call them and complain hopefully one of us can eventually get to their 2nd or 3rd level support and speak with an engineer or senior technician. The fan noise problem won't disappear on it's own.

It's hardware issue not software they cant fix it unless they redesign the whole camcorder (I bet next model will remove the fan and will make the camcorder a little bit bigger to give it a room to breath, after all TM700 is smaller than Canon HF S20 or Sony CX550V

So yeah if you gonna use external microphone or crapy Sound quality then TM700 is the best camcorder available
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post #291 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 09:49 AM
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First, To answer the question about the relationship between Panasonic's 3MOS technology and the needed active fan ventilation. I honesty don't think that is the reason because even when I simply switch the camcorder to stillshot or playback modes, the noise is still there and just as loud. So I don't personally think it has to do with shooting modes and 3MOS, the fan is on the whole time the camcorder is powered on.

Here are my latest findings when I played with the mic level and mode settings. In short, there is no good way to get rid of the fan noise. Here is what I have tried this morning:

- set mic level to the lowest -30 on Surround mode: result, very quiet, fan noise reduced about 70% but still somewhat audible. However I had to turn my TV volume all the way to hear the audio recorder, and of course the fan noise became more apparent but not as bad as before

- did the same thing but with -15 and ZERO on the mic level settings, more audio is audible but fan noise starts to become more and more audible as well (no surprise)

- last I played with the mic mode setting and set it to Zoom, Focus and Stereo while the mic level was manually set to Zero. End results were not favorable and I can hear the fan noise still.

Next thing to try is an external video recording mic. Any recommendations?

Oh I am definitely calling Panasonic about the fan noise, as good as this camcorder is, this noise is unacceptable considering it's their consumer flagship 2010 model.
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post #292 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 10:03 AM
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My inclination is still to purchase SoundSoap for my personal use when I eventually buy this camcorder . The price is $129, which is less than a good external microphone, and would still allow me to preserve the compactness and "zoomability" of the built-in mike, along with its 5.1 channel functionality.

Again, I could be talked out of this later, because I'm not in a position yet to test the camera in conjunction with SoundSoap. But I do use this software filter on a regular basis, and it works perfectly in eliminating external fan noise in our converted studio.

Here's the link to the product, if any of you Panasonic owners are inclined to give it a try:

http://www.bias-inc.com/products/soundsoap2/

Carl
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post #293 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seph22 View Post

It's hardware issue not software they cant fix it unless they redesign the whole camcorder (I bet next model will remove the fan and will make the camcorder a little bit bigger to give it a room to breath, after all TM700 is smaller than Canon HF S20 or Sony CX550V

If the fan is controlled via the firmware, they could do a firmware update to limit the conditions under which the fan runs.
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post #294 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 10:42 AM
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I wonder if the fan issue is affecting a certain batch of tm700s. I'm trying to listen for it but don't really hear anything noticeable. If I do try to hear for any fan noise I'm not sure if it's from the environment or not.
My 1st "out of the box" sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmf3JTXRyOE


edit: ok, after playing 5x with my headphones on I hear some sort of fan-like noise. However I don't know for sure if it's the tm700 or something else in the room. It's not very noticeable though.
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post #295 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 11:03 AM
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That audio sounds very clean to me, sushinut.
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post #296 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sushinut View Post

I wonder if the fan issue is affecting a certain batch of tm700s. I'm trying to listen for it but don't really hear anything noticeable. If I do try to hear for any fan noise I'm not sure if it's from the environment or not.
My 1st "out of the box" sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmf3JTXRyOE


edit: ok, after playing 5x with my headphones on I hear some sort of fan-like noise. However I don't know for sure it's the tm700 or something else in the room. It's not very noticeable though.

This is a test in a quite environment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMTImMI4jw

Noise is there i can hear it even without without headphones using a laptop speakers

Another real life sample

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mPUJFcFO4

It's awful, there is different between "silent" and "Fan noise"
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post #297 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by seph22 View Post

This is a test in a quite environment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMTImMI4jw

Noise is there i can hear it even without without headphones using a laptop speakers

Another real life sample

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mPUJFcFO4

It's awful, there is different between "silent" and "Fan noise"


I think if you are looking to hear the fan noise you can hear it. For me I can barely notice the fan noise in those two clips. As a comparison I cranked up the volume and watched an old video clip of mine with a Sony TRV22 (miniDV)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PP0J98S2gM

To me the background noise sounds about the same as my sample clip. It's in the same room so it's a fairly accurate comparison.
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post #298 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 12:56 PM
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Hi,
I just ordered hdc-SD700. I am looking now for a decent comp to mangage the 60p footage. This is what I am currently thinking about:
- i7-860
- 8 GB RAM
- graphic card GTX 285 - this card will be supported by newest Premiere CS5 with fantastic mercury engine (GPU rendering). I hope this configuration will make the work with 60p footage easier. I am waiting till April 12, when they gonna introduce cs5 so I need to be sure that my plan will work.I dont play any games so this card is heavy overkill to me, but if it enables me to work smoothly with 60p footage, I will go for it.

- I optionally think about the SSD system disc, but I can afford now just 64 GB version, what is not enough. I am gonna wait some time than buy 128 GB SSD. For now I am fine with classical hard drive.

- So with this new computer I am gonna be well prepared for 60p (or at least I hope so). Only thing I am afraid of is no possibility of playing 60p footage on any BD player available.
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post #299 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mengaart View Post

Hi,
I just ordered hdc-SD700. I am looking now for a decent comp to mangage the 60p footage. This is what I am currently thinking about:
- i7-860
- 8 GB RAM
- graphic card GTX 285 - this card will be supported by newest Premiere CS5 with fantastic mercury engine (GPU rendering). I hope this configuration will make the work with 60p footage easier. I am waiting till April 12, when they gonna introduce cs5 so I need to be sure that my plan will work.I dont play any games so this card is heavy overkill to me, but if it enables me to work smoothly with 60p footage, I will go for it.

- I optionally think about the SSD system disc, but I can afford now just 64 GB version, what is not enough. I am gonna wait some time than buy 128 GB SSD. For now I am fine with classical hard drive.

- So with this new computer I am gonna be well prepared for 60p (or at least I hope so). Only thing I am afraid of is no possibility of playing 60p footage on any BD player available.

High end GPU like GTX 285 is an overkill, editing is all about the CPU power (GPU helps but not as much as the CPU) plus why are you getting GTX285 when GTX470 is getting released in 14 Days and cost the same as GTX285?

If you are looking for a room to upgrade in the future drop the i7 860 and get a i7 930 it costs 20$ more than i7 860 and will allow you to upgrade to 6 Core CPU soon (The 6Core Extreme edition is already out, the budget models will be out this year), Editing 1920x1080p60 will be a complete joke with 6 Cores. and 6Cores with mid range GPU> 4cores with high end GPU for Editing HD

And SSD is nice but not needed for HD editing
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post #300 of 3783 Old 04-01-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calessi View Post

My inclination is still to purchase SoundSoap for my personal use when I eventually buy this camcorder . The price is $129, which is less than a good external microphone, and would still allow me to preserve the compactness and "zoomability" of the built-in mike, along with its 5.1 channel functionality.

Again, I could be talked out of this later, because I'm not in a position yet to test the camera in conjunction with SoundSoap. But I do use this software filter on a regular basis, and it works perfectly in eliminating external fan noise in our converted studio.

Here's the link to the product, if any of you Panasonic owners are inclined to give it a try:

http://www.bias-inc.com/products/soundsoap2/

Carl

Carl, I take it you don't currently own a TM700, if so, do you plan on buying it soon to test in conjunction with the Soundsoap app? If not, is anyone willing to give it a shot and let us know?
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