Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 112 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:11 AM
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I am completely torn between the TM700 and the Canon S20. I purchased the S20 from Best Buy for around $70 less (including tax) than what I have seen the TM700 go for online. It seems quite apparant that the TM700 has the BEST video quality of any HD camcorder available for less than $1500 (my budget is $800). My largest concern has to do with recording the video from the TM700 (60p mode) to a DVD or blu-ray.

I assume if using the S20, mode I would end up shooting in the most is 1080 30p correct? When exactly would one use the 24p or is it just a matter of preference? Also, if I was to purchase the TM-700, am I able to transfer the 60p video to a computer and burn it onto a DVD-R using the supplied Panasonic software? If yes, how much record time can fit onto a single disc? I think the only editing I may do is clipping out unwanted footage and perhaps doing some sort of transitions between clips. I would just like to get a camera with excellent HD quality and something that I can transfer to and burn from my PC WITHOUT having to buy a ton of extra software or having to do a lot of converting. At the same time, I want to watch it in the maximum quality possible on my TV's (currently have a Samsung PN-58C8000 plasma and LN-52B750 LCD). I assume I need to record the disc (can it be a normal DVD-R or does it have to be a blu-ray?) and play it back from a blu-ray player to achieve maximum picture quality viewing from my TV? Please help me out here as I am a noob to HD camcorders. I would love to get some answers asap as if I order today I can get it here Friday via Amazon Prime...hope to get some replies on this!!!
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:46 AM
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Question for all you TM700 owners...

Did everyone buy this online? I am trying to find a brick and mortar store that I can at least go to and look a the camcorder at. I am not a fan of buying something and bringing it home to test it out with, when I can just look at it at a store. I know sears/kmart and bestbuy sells the camcorder, but they are online only. Why can I not find this camcorder at a retail store anywhere??
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pezgod View Post

Question for all you TM700 owners...

Did everyone buy this online? I am trying to find a brick and mortar store that I can at least go to and look a the camcorder at. I am not a fan of buying something and bringing it home to test it out with, when I can just look at it at a store. I know sears/kmart and bestbuy sells the camcorder, but they are online only. Why can I not find this camcorder at a retail store anywhere??

Ultimate Electronics has it in store. You can try Fry's Electronics as well. It is quite a bit smaller in size than the Canon S200/S20/S21.
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:17 PM
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I wish there was a Fry's here in Northeast Ohio! I've heard that is an awesome store! So, maybe I should clarify...Anybody know of a place in the Northeast Ohio area that has them? There are stores that have more canon and sony models than I can even think of looking at...but none of those stores have the panasonics..and I've called (well...i didn't bother calling the Sony store because i kind of figured they wouldn't stock panny camcorders!)
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Hi, alainhubert!

Remember last summer: a few people saw a shaking\\jittering effect.
It was difficult to convince...

But the problem now solved and firmware update released.

One user has reported recently that it is not possible to avoid a bondi blue color in Panasonic xx600\\700 camcorder.

See a short clip, how it works:
http://www.vimeo.com/18058557

See how bondi blue color restores AUTOMATICALLY even after setting a manual WB

Regards,
MYG

I am currently doing some tests with my TM700 and will upload my results on Vimeo soon. Is that bondie blue also present when your camcorder is in IA mode, or is it just doing that in manual mode?
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:34 PM
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I've uploaded the original .mts file of White Balance test from my TM700 on Vimeo.

Recorded at 1920x1080 60p (Vimeo re-compresses it though)
Handheld camcorder in manual mode

http://www.vimeo.com/18095192

As you can see, it starts with the color balance having been set indoors, with the resulting overly blue offset. Then I proceed to do many one-shot manual balance.

The goal of this test was to see if the fixed color balance kept changing even after it had been set manually. And on my TM700 at least, it doesn't seem to.
It must also be noted that in that particular lighting situation, the IA mode produced an even slightly more accurate result, surprisingly (no video of that yet).

After having watched MYG's video, I must agree that maybe his camcorder has a color balance problem?
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

I've uploaded the original .mts file of White Balance test from my TM700 on Vimeo.

Recorded at 1920x1080 60p (Vimeo re-compresses it though)
Handheld camcorder in manual mode

http://www.vimeo.com/18095192

As you can see, it starts with the color balance having been set indoors, with the resulting overly blue offset. Then I proceed to do many one-shot manual balance.

The goal of this test was to see if the fixed color balance kept changing even after it had been set manually. And on my TM700 at least, it doesn't seem to.
It must also be noted that in that particular lighting situation, the IA mode produced an even slightly more accurate result, surprisingly (no video of that yet).

After having watched MYG's video, I must agree that maybe his camcorder has a color balance problem?

Hi alainhubert!

Thank you very much for the test!

But it's very strange that you do not see THE SAME EFFECT in your video.
Your manual WB changes after 2-3 seconds too!

See more carefully: when you set manual WB - the blue container and blue car became a deep blue in the beginning, then... restores back with bondi blue\\ little green bias!

MYG
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pezgod View Post

Question for all you TM700 owners...

Did everyone buy this online? I am trying to find a brick and mortar store that I can at least go to and look a the camcorder at. I am not a fan of buying something and bringing it home to test it out with, when I can just look at it at a store. I know sears/kmart and bestbuy sells the camcorder, but they are online only. Why can I not find this camcorder at a retail store anywhere??

Do you have a Best Buy near by? I hear they carry them, but too high priced for me. I payed $759
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

The goal of this test was to see if the fixed color balance kept changing even after it had been set manually. And on my TM700 at least, it doesn't seem to.

Alainhubert, this is an addition to my post above.
I have attached two frames from your video to compare.
To the left - immedately after you set up a manual WB, the frame to the right - after 2-3 sec after manual WB set up.

I do not believe that you can't see a difference!!!

Regards,
MYG
LL
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post

Hi all,
My question is about the AE Writer 2.1 Software that comes with the TM-700.
I have it on one of my HTPC Puter's and on my other HTPC I am just downloading the M2T video from the Stream and playing and Editing with Cyberlink's PowerDVD 10 / Power Director / Converter.
Is everyone using the AE Writer 2.1 Software on your Computer?

Thanks,
Bud B

There are two ways to get the video off this camera without an external flash card, other than capturing it via HDMI or component, what the point? When you use HD Writer to get the video off, it saves it as .m2ts, but if you mount the internal memory and navigate to them, they are .mts files. I don't see a quality change or bitrate size or even file size between the two. I can edit either one fine with Vegas Pro 8c - 10b as well as CS5's After Effects and Premiere. You do need to make custom project, comp, render settings to work with the 1080 60p.
I only use the HD Writer to play back original mts and m2ts files.
Hope this helps, Danny Hays, Universal Studios FL.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Hi alainhubert!

Thank you very much for the test!

But it's very strange that you do not see THE SAME EFFECT in your video.
Your manual WB changes after 2-3 seconds too!

See more carefully: when you set manual WB - the blue container and blue car became a deep blue in the beginning, then... restores back with bondi blue\\ little green bias!

MYG

This is starting to sound like Vimeo's re-compressing. Your original clips don't do that do they? besides the video was only blue during vimeos first play through, then normal every other time it looped. It's Got to be Vimeo.
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Hays View Post

This is starting to sound like Vimeo's re-compressing. Your original clips don't do that do they? besides the video was only blue during vimeos first play through, then normal every other time it looped. It's Got to be Vimeo.

No, I have the same situation in original clip.
I can upload the original clip if you do not believe.

Regards,
MYG
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post


Hi alainhubert!

Thank you very much for the test!

But it's very strange that you do not see THE SAME EFFECT in your video.
Your manual WB changes after 2-3 seconds too!

See more carefully: when you set manual WB - the blue container and blue car became a deep blue in the beginning, then... restores back with bondi blue\\ little green bias!

MYG

Now that you mention it, it does change slightly. But in my case, the initial deep blue is NOT the right color. That car and the containers are supposed to be sky blue, not deep blue. When you hit the manual WB set button the screen goes black (you can hear the iris closing) then it re-opens with a default color balance and it takes 1 second to calibrate the gain of each primary color, after which the final color balance is shown. That's the reason behind the 2-3 seconds delay.

I remember some 20 years ago, I had a Sony CCD-V101 camcorder with a manual WB that would always have a light blue offset, no matter what.
It was very hard to get a good green color (for grass for example). One of my friend had complained about the same thing on his unit, to the point of having it checked out under warranty, but the tech at Sony Service Center said they were all like that. It was the way the camera section was designed.
After a while, we had found ways to "trick" the WB circuit to give us the color balance we wanted by using light blue color filters when performing manual WB.


Can you film that same building with the camcorder on IA mode? I would be very curious to see how the Intelligent Auto mode would balance the colors compared to manual mode on your unit.
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post


Alainhubert, this is an addition to my post above.
I have attached two frames from your video to compare.
To the left - immedately after you set up a manual WB, the frame to the right - after 2-3 sec after manual WB set up.

I do not believe that you can't see a difference!!!

Regards,
MYG

Yes. Zoomed in like that I do see the difference even more. You're starting to make me doubt my own test! Lol!
But you have to agree that the color shift is not as dramatic as in your " building with blue lines" video example?
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Yes. Zoomed in like that I do see the difference even more. You're starting to make me doubt my own test! Lol!
But you have to agree that the color shift is not as dramatic as in your " building with blue lines" video example?

May be the color shift depends on lighting conditions?
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:24 PM
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Dear members
I am a new TM700 owner. I was searching about this and Canon HF S20 for almost 3 month on the internet and forums. because I saw lots of complaints for FAN problem I really was going to buy canon but since I asked the panasonic website about this problem and they confimed that this problem is solved with newer very low noise fans I decided to buy this wonderful camcorder. you can not imagine what quality it has specifically in 1080/60P mode and even in 17 mbps (the best after 1080/60P mode) although I have seen lots of people complaining of lower quality in the latter mode which is not true.
quality of picture and sound is unbeleivable.
The problem of viewing the clips is easily solved with k-lite codec pack for windows media player but best viewer I experienced was Nero 8 showtime (not nero 7 but did not tested nero 9 or 10). it showed the clips very smoothly on my laptop which is lenovo G560 (8GB ram, i7 1.73, 500GB HDD) and I did not notice any frame loss in comparison to all other viewers (jetaudio, VLC ...).
The camcorder is very easy to use, the image stability is really out of imagination, the colors are very very close to what you see with your own eyes.
I also bought an extra VBG260 and it helps a lot in filming outdoors when no power source is available.
The capacity is enough and I don't think buying extra memory or the HDD model would be a good idea.
I really did not notice any fan noise but you can hear it hardly when put you ear on the fan and it might be heard when filming in very very queit places.
I definitely recommend this camcorder to every consumer who is not sure what to buy.
Enjoy it.
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:18 PM
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I currently took a trip to disney and recorded most of the trip in 1080p 60fps
I watched it on my screen here and it was gorgeous.
I use a mac pro and now when it came to editing that's another story.

I found mts video converter etc and did the conversion to 1080p60, however the resolution from the converted file to original mts file are far from similar.
Even the apple prores doesnt come close to the original mts using toast.
It doesn't really matter since its just vacation video, but I would like some clips to be high resolution.
just wondering if anyone has any solutions or ideas.

please see this uploaded video of the fireworks at epcot. mind you it wasnt uploaded as HD.
but watching it on big screen its awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xqhy-NQEq4

Another issue is the ps3, when i connected the tm700, it only detected the 30fps videos not the 60f, i thought the ps3 could technically play 1080p60
it does play the mts file when i stream or copy to it from my mac on the network.



see attached images. one pic is the original mts 1080p60 and other is converted to apple prores 1080p60
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:32 PM
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It's true, I opened my gift today from wife, it's a TM700!
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:05 PM
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Hello all,

I'm a new TM 700 owner and have run into a problem. I took a a few short clips today at 1080P60 and used the supplied software to combine them into one file. I then streamed the file to my PS3. The video worked perfectly (and looked fantastic), but I didn't get any audio out at all. Does anyone know how to overcome this?

I've got a second audio related question. When I play the clips on my PC using the supplied software, they work perfectly, however when I use windows media player, the video is perfect, but I get severe lip sync issues. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?

Thanks for any help.
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosswire View Post

I currently took a trip to disney and recorded most of the trip in 1080p 60fps
I watched it on my screen here and it was gorgeous.
I use a mac pro and now when it came to editing that's another story.

I found mts video converter etc and did the conversion to 1080p60, however the resolution from the converted file to original mts file are far from similar.
Even the apple prores doesnt come close to the original mts using toast.
It doesn't really matter since its just vacation video, but I would like some clips to be high resolution.
just wondering if anyone has any solutions or ideas.

please see this uploaded video of the fireworks at epcot. mind you it wasnt uploaded as HD.
but watching it on big screen its awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xqhy-NQEq4

Another issue is the ps3, when i connected the tm700, it only detected the 30fps videos not the 60f, i thought the ps3 could technically play 1080p60
it does play the mts file when i stream or copy to it from my mac on the network.

see attached images. one pic is the original mts 1080p60 and other is converted to apple prores 1080p60

The PS3 detecting only the 30fps video and not the 60f, what do you mean?
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Old 12-26-2010, 07:14 AM
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When I connect tm700 directly to ps3 using it's USB, I Goto the video category n folder and it doesn't show my clips that were shot in 1080p 60fps
I shot 2 clips that were not 60 fps and only those showed up

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Old 12-26-2010, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosswire
When I connect tm700 directly to ps3 using it's USB, I Goto the video category n folder and it doesn't show my clips that were shot in 1080p 60fps
I shot 2 clips that were not 60 fps and only those showed up
I think you have your (x) fps vs (x) p nomenclature mixed up. I'm not going to get into the details but they are not the same. 60p does not mean 60 fps. Anyway, did you press 'triangle' and then 'display all' on the ps3? You should be able to do that and navigate the camera's file structure to play the 60p videos. I always copy them to the ps3 hard drive.
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Old 12-26-2010, 08:18 AM
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Oops sorry about that
Will try that

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Old 12-26-2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post

I am completely torn between the TM700 and the Canon S20. I purchased the S20 from Best Buy for around $70 less (including tax) than what I have seen the TM700 go for online. It seems quite apparant that the TM700 has the BEST video quality of any HD camcorder available for less than $1500 (my budget is $800).

Many would agree with that statement. I bought a TM700 for $750 last year, a nice complement to my HMC40. You will get better stills out of the S20, there are of course other personal issues -- you don't buy a camera ONLY on quality, but that has to be one main issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post

My largest concern has to do with recording the video from the TM700 (60p mode) to a DVD or blu-ray.

When I shoot 1080/60p, that goes onto DVD at 480/60i, and onto Blu-Ray at 1080/60i or 720/60p... my choice. Then I still have 1080/30p or whatever available for online, if I also need online video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post

I assume if using the S20, mode I would end up shooting in the most is 1080 30p correct?

No. Neither Blu-Ray nor DVD properly support 30p. You can encode 30p as 60i and it probably just works, but if you want to make DVDs, the right answer is 60i or 24p, for Blu-Ray, 1080/60i, 720/60p, or either resolution at 24p. All NTSC, of course... PAL countries also do 50i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post

When exactly would one use the 24p or is it just a matter of preference?

24p is primarily chosen for a film-like look. But it's also quite useful for low light... shooting at 60p or 60i really requires a 1/60th second minimum shutter speed (360 degree shutter, in film terms); for 24p, you can shoot at 1/24th second. Obviously, not a good idea for fast motion, but hopefully, you're not mixing fast motion and darkness too often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post

Also, if I was to purchase the TM-700, am I able to transfer the 60p video to a computer and burn it onto a DVD-R using the supplied Panasonic software?

Not sure.. I have owned at least ten video cameras, and have yet to do anything with the bundled software. I guess I do have "HD Writer" installed.. according the manual, it can move your camcorder video to BD, AVCHD, or DVD-Video format. There's also some facility for "cut" editing. If this is an important issue, you're probably better off looking for a forum on this tool. For any serious editing and video creation, you can get a much more servicable app like Sony's Vegas Studio HD for under $100.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post

I assume I need to record the disc (can it be a normal DVD-R or does it have to be a blu-ray?) and play it back from a blu-ray player to achieve maximum picture quality viewing from my TV?

It depends. You can, of course, hook most camcorders to an HDMI input these days, and play directly from the camera. And you can generate a Blu-ray disc from the HD content that's essentially the same content, if there's no serious editing... depends, of course, on the tools. And you need a Blu-ray writer. Some Blu-ray players take SDHC cards directly with AVCHD file structures on them... that won't necessarily work for 1080/60p video, but it will for all other formats on the TM700.

When you create a DVD-Video, you're downrezzing to standard definition, but you get the ability to play on any DVD player. Some software (looks like HD Writer does this, and there's the free "MultiAVCHD" which definitely does) lets you write an AVCHD DVD. The AVCHD format was derived from Blu-Ray, but intended for recording on camcorders to both DVD and Blu-ray media. On DVD, again, 1080/60p is not proper AVCHD and may not play (it requires a faster DVD drive; AVCHD requires 2x DVD drive, nothing faster), neither will other video formats over 18Mb/s. And at 17Mb/s, you don't get much on a DVD5... about 35 minutes; going to DVD9 will get you about an hour.
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:54 AM
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Hi, I just bought TM700 and PS3 mostly because it should play AVCHD files.
If I copy files to USB and try to play - I am seeing "no tracks" message.
Do I have to do anything special? files are m2ts. thanks
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Old 12-27-2010, 02:19 PM
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Have you hit Triangle and Display All?
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Old 12-27-2010, 04:08 PM
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Ahaaaa!!! I did now and can see and play AVCHD. Here is the other one - there is no sound with 1080p60 clips, but if clip converted to AVCHD format (HD Writer AE 2.1) I guess it is 1080p30??? sound is there...
Anything else I should look?

BTW - quality is amaizing on 50" samsung plasma.

Thanks
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Old 12-27-2010, 04:13 PM
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Try a 92" screen projector it's like I'm there again

Tv is chewing gum for your eyes
Denon 2307ci|Paradigm Speakers 7.1|PS3|LED 42" LCD|Panasonic Ae4000u projector
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Old 12-27-2010, 04:45 PM
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Are you getting sound with 60p?
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:07 PM
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While it's playing, check what the PS3 says the sound format is. Hit Display on your remote if you have one or the appropriate command(s) on the controller; I think it's Select.
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