Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:00 PM
Member
 
seph22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katelyn View Post

Actually, I find it very useful. i have a Sony, but the Panny was also on my list. As I have posted on the 550 forum the dot is really a non-issue for me. However, transferability is. I am interested in the outcome of the testing when comparing apples to apples, so to speak.

There isn't much of a different between 1080p30 or 1080p60 when it comes to sharing

Both are not official bluray codec
So you can only burn them as "Data disc" instead of "Video disc" and both require strong PCs for playback or powerful GPU

5 years from now people will look back at their videos and say "i wish if i did shoot that at 1920x1080p60! too bad we don't have a time machine :P

People said you can't share 720p online 3 years ago "takes too much data" then youtube jumped on 720p before 2 years, people said 1080p30 will never happen, it does require too much bandwidth, but again youtube started offering 1080p30 last year.

The future is 1920x1080p60, every Full HDTV support it, human eye can not tell the different that much after 1920x1080p60 resolution on an HDTV (Unless we started getting +100 inch HDTVs lol)

Hell if we keep using 1920x1080p till the end of this world, people won't mind, it's just the laws of physics, HDTV size versus your distance = 1080p is more than enough, human eye motion detection = p60 is all what you need, 120 wont make things looks much better unlike 30 frame versus 60.

I would understand if you said 1080p is harder to edit but saying you can't share 1080p doesn't make sense.
seph22 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:06 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Joe, I hate to be redundant, but when you see the best footage quality you've ever seen, I can't imagine not using 1080p.

Archive it for the future and convert it to a format that can be used in any editing program now or do as I do, use the camera to play it back and enjoy. I'd bet most people who use consumer camcorders never edit their videos to begin with, so for the average consumer this will be a non-issue. In fact of all the people I know who own camcorders, I know of only one other friend who edits their own footage. Hell, even though I do editing professionally, until my wife and I took a trip to Alaska, I never edited my own personal footage!

But after seeing the reviews and feedback for this 1080p picture, don't think the other big manufacturers (Canon & Sony) won't soon be adding this to their lineup...they have to since the disparity in picture quality is too great. When that kind of momentum hits, solutions to handling 1080p will abound. We went exactly the same route when AVCHD first came around.

Honestly, I'd feel I was taking too big a hit in PQ after seeing what this cam's 1080p looks like. I've always been a PQ fanatic and I'm willing to work around whatever issues there are. I had been happy with my Sony XR-500, but it pales by comparison now.

We've already seen people are successfully editing 1080p and the price isn't that high (see Paulo's post). It all depends on the value you place on having the best picture quality.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #453 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 130
This is a great debate.

My additions:

1. Pros do NOT shoot at 1080, 60p. 720, 60p and 1080, 60i are broadcast standards in the US, and also, for AVCHD, blu-ray standards.

2. The Olympics and March Madness are broadcast at 1080, 60i. Anybody have any complaints about the picture? That's fast action for sure.

3. If my family members have sophisticated equipment and I send them a thumb drive, maybe they could play 1080, 60p files - probably have to hook up their computer to a big HDTV - how many do that (you cannot play 1080, 60p over wifi either). Maybe I could share the files to play with nerds. It's bad enough convincing friends and relatives to get a blu-ray player.

Perhaps my great grandchildren will appreciate 60p, 1080 files, but right now I would have to downrez to have my current friends and relatives even view them.

4. At 60i, 1080 the resolution champ so far is the JVC HM400.
markr041 is offline  
post #454 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:26 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sholle View Post

If you carefully read how CCI performs their video sharpness test, you will realize that this is not comparing the lens quality or sensor quality from one camcorder to another. The reason that the TM700 has higher video sharpness (but only at 60p, not 60i), is that CCI moves the camcorder in their video sharpness test. Of course 60p will do better than 60i if you move the camcorder.

If you do a static shot of a resolution test chart, it wouldn't matter if you captured at 1080 60i or 1080 60p, the resolution of all of these high end camcorders would be similar.

Of course they do it that way since camcorders are virtually always in motion. I'd expect static measurements to be made with a still camera, not a videocamera. So there's nothing wrong or inherently illogical with the way they test resolution. Their results are perfectly valid and the test methodology is consistent from one camcorder to the next.

Additionally, when I did a static (or nearly so) test with my Sony Z5, TM700 and Sony XR-500, the results still showed significantly greater resolution on the Panasonic as evident by the clarity of roof tiles on a neighbor's roof. Only the 700 clearly showed each individual roof tile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sholle View Post


Now, in order to enjoy the benefit of the perceived video sharpness of 60p, one has to follow these steps (leave off one of them, and the sharpness drops):

1 shoot in 1080 60p
2 edit in 1080 60p
3 output edited content in 1080 60p
4 transfer edited content to a medium or device that can store and/or display 1080 60p
5 display output on HDTV that can accept and display 1080 60p

My guess is that the average consumer that these camcorders are aimed at will not be able to follow these steps, and therefore will not gain what 60p can offer.

OR, you simply hook up your camcorder to your big screen 1080p HDTV and sit back and enjoy eliminating 3 of your 5 steps. We can make anything look complicated Dave, but the fact of the matter is the 'average consumer' will do just that, hook up their camcorder to their HDTV and sit back and enjoy. THEN the only potential kink will be if their HDTV is 1080p.

BTW, there's nothing 'perceived' about the unprecedented sharpness & detail of 1000 horizontal lw/ph & 900 horizontal lw/ph. This stuff isn't 'perceived' or imaginary. One look on a good 1080p HDTV will tell you that in an instant.

I think some people are going out of their way to make 'excuses' for either not getting this camcorder (perhaps after they've bought some other unit) or explaining why it isn't really as good as it seems. I find it all amazing since the consumer now has at his disposal a camcorder that comes closest to broadcast quality of any yet released.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #455 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:29 PM
Newbie
 
supermovies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm getting an HS700 soon but I keep seeing people complain about the files being so hard to edit..

Why?

What is so tough?
supermovies is offline  
post #456 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:34 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Perhaps my great grandchildren will appreciate 60p, 1080 files, but right now I would have to downrez to have my current friends and relatives even view them.

Mark, if that were the case technology would have slowed down to a snail's pace. I'm certain we'll get to that point long long long before your 'great grandchildren' are around!

People were saying the same thing about AVCHD in general just 2 or 3 years ago. Now look.

The way I look at it is, why would I not want to preserve precious memories in the best format that is available today? If they're worthwhile to shoot, they're worthwhile to shoot in the best mode. If needed, yes, these files can be down converted, but at least you'll still have the pristine 1080p files for viewing immediately yourself.

And finally, yes, broadcasters are not using 1080 60p right now due to bandwidth limitations, but I'd bet they would if they could. But hey, who cares if WE can shoot in a better format? First time that's happened in my memory and I'm happy as hell about it!
Ken Ross is offline  
post #457 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:37 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermovies View Post

I'm getting an HS700 soon but I keep seeing people complain about the files being so hard to edit..

Why?

What is so tough?

The more information contained in a compressed format, the harder it is for a computer to 'disassemble it'. That's the price we pay every time we take a jump forward in this technology.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #458 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
damnsam77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Beautiful Colorado
Posts: 2,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

This was exactly the issue with a prosumer Sony mini-DV camcorder a few years ago (it might have been the PD150, not sure). When left in auto mode, the AGC would raise the sensitivity in quiet environments looking for something. This would result in a hiss.

For those bothered by this, it would probably help to set the 700's audio manually and use the provided audio level meter.

I have been doing that, minus turnig off the AGC mode which I will do going forwards, thanks for the tip! BTW, the only bad thing is that you have to turn off the Auto mode all together in order to manually control the mic level and/or turn off AGC. So you will have to do All the picture settings manually, or at least that's what I think.

CEDAR PEAKS CINEMA (Now w/ 3D)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
damnsam77 is offline  
post #459 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 02:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jogiba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,856
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe41524 View Post

So according to you, the 60P is the only thing this cam is good for? What do you plan on honestly doing with 60P footage right now? You can't disagree that 60P is much more limited at this point in time than 60i.

I know that 60P is all the hype for some, but you seriously can`t think that`s all people are interested in.

After watching native 1080p60 TM700 videos on my PC with 1920x1200 24" Samsung monitor it knocked my socks off and I ordered the TM700. I have four 1080p HDTVs (32",37",42" &47") in my home and will be viewing the 1080p60 videos on them from the TM700 with HDMI. I also plan on burning the 17Mbsec HA AVCHD videos I shoot with it to DVD to play on my four blu-ray players and PS3. Heck you even said the 17Mbsec HA AVCHD TM700 videos looked better than the Sony HDR-CX550V . 1080p60 is the future and it looks fantastic today on the TM700.
http://vimeo.com/10663338
jogiba is offline  
post #460 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:08 PM
Member
 
lekom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katelyn View Post

Actually, I find it very useful. i have a Sony, but the Panny was also on my list. As I have posted on the 550 forum the dot is really a non-issue for me. However, transferability is. I am interested in the outcome of the testing when comparing apples to apples, so to speak.

I don't know why you find it useful.
You don't buy Ferrari to go 40 mph all the time, -woud you find useful such Ferrari review?

We compare small cam to small cam, we want best picture possible, sounds apples to apples to me. And it seems as 700 does provide best picture possible, and i don't care how it achives that, 50p or not 50p. And i don't understand why should you care.. Why are you, and some other posters, who even claim they own 700 try so hard to downplay 700 advantages is beyond my understanding.
lekom is offline  
post #461 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Newbie
 
supermovies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The more information contained in a compressed format, the harder it is for a computer to 'disassemble it'. That's the price we pay every time we take a jump forward in this technology.


Obviously... this could be a reason...

But I was curious if anyone had a real reason?
Trying to edit raw 60p on a sub-standard machine isn't a reason imo.


If that is all he was complaining about then there is no problem with editing in 60p and I will be getting this little gem as soon as it hits the stores. I hate ordering online...
supermovies is offline  
post #462 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 25
How close can the new 700 series autofocus without being in somekind of macro mode? And how fast is the autofocus compared to e.g. Sonys latests???
Webmonkey is offline  
post #463 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:20 PM
Member
 
TheBum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I disagree. Why would I not archive everything in a mode that produces the best video available to the consumer? It can always be converted to a more easily editable format now while archived in 1080p for use later. I'm sure before long it will be accepted directly by many editing programs.

I agree. You'll be glad to have that higher quality several years down the road. I wish I had had better quality than 8mm tape back when I took my trip to Alaska.
TheBum is offline  
post #464 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,690
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

This is very weird. My Edius Pro 5 accepts the 1080p clip with no problem, but playback and editing is sluggish. Looking at that video, my processor is a bit faster than his (I7 950 @3.07 GHz) and my video card is a GeForce GT220.

I'm not sure if Edius Neo is actually faster than Edius Pro 5 in playing/editing this kind of clip or if it's a question of the video card.

It's a new H.264 technology in which Edius decided to put it in Neo 2. They said that I'll be in Edius Pro 5.5 soon.
http://www.videography.com/article/92758

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #465 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:23 PM
Member
 
Katelyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lekom View Post

I don't know why you find it useful.
You don't buy Ferrari to go 40 mph all the time, -woud you find useful such Ferrari review?

We compare small cam to small cam, we want best picture possible, sounds apples to apples to me. And it seems as 700 does provide best picture possible, and i don't care how it achives that, 50p or not 50p. And i don't understand why should you care.. Why are you, and some other posters, who claim they own 700 try so hard to downplay 700 advantages is beyond my understanding.

Different strokes for different folks. If I can't transfer the image so others can see my precious moments that's a big negative for me. It's not a negative for you - I get that. Not everyone has the same priorities and I want to know how the images compare on the same playing field. I have already said - repeatedly - that the 700 has beautiful video. For some of us there are other factors that need to be considered when we make this purchase. I am sorry if you find that to be a problem.
Katelyn is offline  
post #466 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:40 PM
Senior Member
 
pcdvdguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The background hiss is pretty substantial in this clip:
http://vimeo.com/10511400

It sounds more like electrical noise than fan noise, though, and it's much louder than in any of the other posted test clips.
pcdvdguy is offline  
post #467 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Also, all of these statements about how the TM700 is the most beautiful video they have ever seen are meaningless. What have you seen? Better than National Geographic blu-rays? better than broadcast HD sports? better than the JVC HM400, the resolution champ, at 60i? And what was the video - shots of a tree? sports? a roof, what? The alternative camcorders mentioned have inferior specs, so no surprise. But at 60i, it is not clear that the JVC and the Canon (reasonable light) do not do better.

The problem is if you don't shoot at 60p, 1080, with all of the hassles, you have to shoot at the inferior 17Mbps for 60i, which is clearly not as good as the rest of the competition. If the Panasonic had 24Mbps at 60i and the resolution at 60i were shown to be as good as or better than the competition then there would be no trade-off (which is why we want to see the 60i results) - one could shoot at least as well as with any camcorder and also have the 60p option - bingo. Right now, if one can only get the best with the 60p, then it's not clear what one does.
markr041 is offline  
post #468 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Member
 
lekom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdvdguy View Post

The background hiss is pretty substantial in this clip:
http://vimeo.com/10511400

It sounds more like electrical noise than fan noise, though, and it's much louder than in any of the other posted test clips.

I assume you never heard how helicopter sounds..
lekom is offline  
post #469 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

How close can the new 700 series autofocus without being in somekind of macro mode? And how fast is the autofocus compared to e.g. Sonys latests???

Just focused on my computer screen (actually your post Webmonkey) and it looks like it's about an 1" give or take a bit.

I'm not sure about the latest Sonys, but the 700 is certainly faster and fooled far less often than my Sony XR-500. I'd say it's very nearly as fast as the Canons which I've always found to be the fastest with their IAF. I've never been wowed by any Sony cam's autofocus. Even my $3,500 Sony Z5 is the pits when it comes to autofocus.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #470 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

It's a new H.264 technology in which Edius decided to put it in Neo 2. They said that I'll be in Edius Pro 5.5 soon.
http://www.videography.com/article/92758

That's good news and explains why Edius 5 is slow with these files. I tried to download the trial of Edius Neo and it refused to install it once it sensed Edius Pro 5.

Thanks Paulo.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #471 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:07 PM
Newbie
 
supermovies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post


The problem is if you don't shoot at 60p, 1080, with all of the hassles, you have to shoot at the inferior 17Mbps for 60i, which is clearly not as good as the rest of the competition. .


What are the hassles???

And please don't say they are to difficult to edit because that is only a hassle if your editing machine isn't a real editing machine.

Tell me why I should just keep using my HF s10 and not buy this camera.
supermovies is offline  
post #472 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdvdguy View Post

The background hiss is pretty substantial in this clip:
http://vimeo.com/10511400

It sounds more like electrical noise than fan noise, though, and it's much louder than in any of the other posted test clips.

Without knowing what was in the area, it's almost impossible to tell what was producing that noise, but I doubt it was the cam's fan.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #473 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 130
If you read the whole thread, you would understand that, aside from editing, there is the issue of sharing the videos: if you take 1080, 60p original videos to send to other people, then they all have to upgrade to what? You cannot send a blu-ray, let alone an AVCHD disc.They cannot use their PS3 even if you send a humongous original file, they cannot use their blu-ray player to play these 1080 60p files. They need a high-spec computer to play them, and then they have to watch on a computer monitor rather than an HDTV, wrecking the quality. You cannot send 1080, 60p files over a wi-fi network - no streaming.

So to share with normal people or even enthusiasts who are not in your home, you have to re-render to a lower spec, losing the whole point and spending a long time doing that even with a good machine.

I have a life, and so do my friends and relatives. They want to see good video and I want to show them. I can't do that with 1080, 60p files without too much hassle.

Yes, in the future, 1080, 60p may be "standard" but I have lots to do, and events and activities to share right now. I can do that easily with stunning highest resolution videos taken at 1080, 60i with what I already have, and the Canon s10 would certainly also produce stunning video in good light at 60i that you can share right now, with no hassle.
markr041 is offline  
post #474 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:30 PM
Senior Member
 
David Sholle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Of course they do it that way since camcorders are virtually always in motion. I'd expect static measurements to be made with a still camera, not a videocamera. So there's nothing wrong or inherently illogical with the way they test resolution. Their results are perfectly valid and the test methodology is consistent from one camcorder to the next.

That is why I wrote "By the way, moving the camcorder during a video sharpness test is a reasonable way to measure sharpness for motion, and the TM700 does better in this test, not because of superior optics or sensors, but because of the 60p mode." I don't know why you left off that quote, because the quote made it very clear that I thought it was a reasonable way to measure video sharpness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Additionally, when I did a static (or nearly so) test with my Sony Z5, TM700 and Sony XR-500, the results still showed significantly greater resolution on the Panasonic as evident by the clarity of roof tiles on a neighbor's roof. Only the 700 clearly showed each individual roof tile.

Here is an interesting quote from a CCI review of the CX500V:

"The Sony HDR-CX500V captured a sharp image in our testing, but we found the Canon HF S11 and JVC GZ-HM400 to be a bit sharper in bright light. The Sony managed a horizontal sharpness of 700 lw/ph and a vertical sharpness of 600 lw/ph, which are both very good scores. In comparison, we measured the horizontal sharpness of the JVC GZ-HM400 at 1000 lw/ph, and the Canon HF S11 hit 800 lw/ph horizontal. These numbers may sound like a huge difference, but visually it can be very difficult to notice the difference in sharpness for all these high-end camcorders (see the 100% crops for a good sharpness comparison). They can all capture very detailed images and none of them did poorly in our sharpness test, but the JVC and Canon were the best of the bunch in this test."

Please note the comment about "difficult to notice the difference" and also note that the JVC has 1000 lw/ph horizontal resolution and it is a 60i camcorder. The TM700 did 1000 lw/ph horizontal resolution when recording 60p at a much higher bit rate (CCI didn't state what the horizontal resolution of the TM700 was when recording 60i.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

OR, you simply hook up your camcorder to your big screen 1080p HDTV and sit back and enjoy eliminating 3 of your 5 steps. We can make anything look complicated Dave, but the fact of the matter is the 'average consumer' will do just that, hook up their camcorder to their HDTV and sit back and enjoy. THEN the only potential kink will be if their HDTV is 1080p.

Ken, I learned a long time ago that I loved playing back and watching the footage straight from the camcorder, but I also learned that if you do that instead of presenting edited video to your family and friends, you will eventually not have any family and friends! I do agree that the "average consumer" will probably simply play back the video from the camcorder to the HDTV, but I also think that the "average consumer" will not be able to see (or even care) about the difference between 60i and 60p, or between resolution differences that CCI states are "difficult" to see.

I respect that you are a PQ type of guy, and I appreciate good PQ, but if I cannot notice PQ differences without a very thorough A-B comparison, then the difference in PQ is irrelevant to me. And, by the way, I am very familiar with PQ. The best PQ I have seen from a camera displayed live is a JVC 4KX2K camera on a live well lit model being recorded and then projected at 4KX2K. I actually thought that the projected image looked better than reality, and I could do an A-B comparison by walking from the projection room to the room where the live model was being imaged! The most amazing PQ I have ever seen is an Evans and Sutherland demonstration of an experimental laser projection system at their SLC headquarters projecting an 8192X4096 pixel image at a frame rate of 120 Hz on a screen about 200" diagonal. Walking right up to the screen, the image was still perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

BTW, there's nothing 'perceived' about the unprecedented sharpness & detail of 1000 horizontal lw/ph & 900 horizontal lw/ph. This stuff isn't 'perceived' or imaginary. One look on a good 1080p HDTV will tell you that in an instant.

The use of the word "perceived" in the context that I used it was not intended to be negative, and shouldn't be taken that way. The reason that I used the word "perceived" is that the video motion sharpness test is to some extent, subjective. How much do you move the camcorder during the test? How fast do you move the camcorder? What display system is the video displayed on? What is the refresh rate of the display system? How much persistence is there? The reviewers have to make judgements about resolution in an image that is moving, which is at least somewhat subjective. (I think we could all agree about resolution in a static image, in comparison.) This is why I use the word perceived. As I stated previously, video motion sharpness should be better at 60p than at 60i, and the reasonable (but still with some subjective features) CCI test demonstrates that this is so for the TM700. In this context "perceived" is not negative, and perception matches reality in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think some people are going out of their way to make 'excuses' for either not getting this camcorder (perhaps after they've bought some other unit) or explaining why it isn't really as good as it seems. I find it all amazing since the consumer now has at his disposal a camcorder that comes closest to broadcast quality of any yet released.

I'm not one of those people, if they exist. I have owned Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Sanyo consumer camcorders, and Canon and Sony prosumer camcorders. I have a JVC LCD broadcast monitor but have not owned a JVC camcorder. Some of their camcorders appear to be very nice, but I was turned off by their "Lazer Touch" operating system when I tried certain models in the store. I am open to camcorders from all of these manufacturers and I am not a "fanboy" of any single manufacturer.

As I have stated multiple times in other threads, the top consumer camcorders from the major manufacturers can take amazing video, and buyers are best advised to decide on a model based on features. For you, the 60p of the Panny is paramount, for others the 60p would be irrelevant or even a workflow problem. For some, the true 24p of the Canon HFS21 would be an important feature, while on the TM700 the lack of wired remote, the low resolution (230K vs 921K) LCD, fan noise, etc., would be big negatives. The smaller sensor on the TM700 compared to those on the HFS21 and CX550V and the related DOF issues might be important to some, and irrelevant to others.

I have a CX550V and I am happy with it. The wide angle setting is important to me, as is the GPS, but might be irrelevant to others. Someday I might buy a HFS21 or a TM700, and I would probably be happy with them. There is no one camcorder that is ideal for everyone. We all have to make compromises based on what is important to us.
David Sholle is offline  
post #475 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Also, all of these statements about how the TM700 is the most beautiful video they have ever seen are meaningless. What have you seen? Better than National Geographic blu-rays? better than broadcast HD sports? better than the JVC HM400, the resolution champ, at 60i? And what was the video - shots of a tree? sports? a roof, what? The alternative camcorders mentioned have inferior specs, so no surprise. But at 60i, it is not clear that the JVC and the Canon (reasonable light) do not do better.

The problem is if you don't shoot at 60p, 1080, with all of the hassles, you have to shoot at the inferior 17Mbps for 60i, which is clearly not as good as the rest of the competition. If the Panasonic had 24Mbps at 60i and the resolution at 60i were shown to be as good as or better than the competition then there would be no trade-off (which is why we want to see the 60i results) - one could shoot at least as well as with any camcorder and also have the 60p option - bingo. Right now, if one can only get the best with the 60p, then it's not clear what one does.

Mark, for you the other cams may be the better choice, nothing wrong with that and no reason to get upset at other owner's joy. For me there are no 'hassles' if all I want to do is hook up my cam and watch the footage I shot on my HDTV. I'll have an editing solution very very shortly. But I recall how so many Sony advocates were saying that last year's Sony's 17mbps was better than the Canon's 24mbps of that same year. Of course Canon people strongly disagreed. Bitrate is just one of many factors that go into overall picture quality. As an example, I was always bothered by my Sony XR-500's greens. At times I felt they were garish. I was also always hoping for more dynamic range in the picture, but felt this was a limitation of chip size or the fact that it had only 1 chip. The Panasonic solved both of those problems for me and gives me the unprecedented sharpness & resolution I've never seen in consumer equipment before.

I don't think anyone is truly arguing that the Panasonic's 1080p footage isn't the best around. On the other hand, nobody is saying it's better than a $75,000 camera used on National Geographic or a network's professional HD camera. What is being said in both professional reviews and user reviews (especially where people have had other HD camcorders), the Panny's 1080p footage IS the best footage to come out of a consumer camera. I truly think there's little debate about that from a pure picture quality standpoint. Couple that with a plethora of manual controls, and you've got an unreal package for $1,000. To me that's cause for celebration.

But if what you want to do with it poses a problem, then you should look elsewhere. In terms of sharing your footage with others, what do you do with ANY HD camcorder when your friend or family member has no Blu Ray or PS3 to play it on?? That can be a 'hassle' with any HD camcorder of any format.

In reading some of these posts, I think several people have already made up their mind, but they're still 'debating' the issue.

For me, the overriding issue is and always has been pure picture quality. I want the best for now and to look back at today's video tomorrow and next year. I'll work around any issues to achieve that picture quality. Unfortunately you don't get too many 'do-overs' to go back and reshoot the valuable moments in life. But that's me.

Good luck with whatever you wind up with.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #476 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,690
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

They cannot use their PS3 even if you send a humongous original file

It works on mine perfectly fine.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #477 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:51 PM
Member
 
joe41524's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermovies View Post

Tell me why I should just keep using my HF s10 and not buy this camera.

No one is telling you not to buy this camera Saying 1080P is not necessarily the best choice right now for everyone is not telling you what to do.

People get so uptight about their camera choice around here. All cameras have pros/cons, if you can't handle discussion of this then just use your camera and be happy with it! Those of us that want constructive commentary can stay and chat.

I have both because they're so darn close and have pros/cons that balance out for my requirements. I will be taking one back next weekend, so I'm testing both under my normal usage and posting my comments here. I'm not here to make up anyone's mind, just to give my opinion. That's all anyone has, is an opinion and a preference.


There's too much childish bickering going on, and therefore I'm giving up posting my results of having both cameras simultaneously. Some people obviously don't want to hear other opinions.
joe41524 is offline  
post #478 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jogiba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,856
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

If you read the whole thread, you would understand that, aside from editing, there is the issue of sharing the videos: if you take 1080, 60p original videos to send to other people, then they all have to upgrade to what? You cannot send a blu-ray, let alone an AVCHD disc.They cannot use their PS3 even if you send a humongous original file, they cannot use their blu-ray player to play these 1080 60p files. They need a high-spec computer to play them, and then they have to watch on a computer monitor rather than an HDTV, wrecking the quality. You cannot send 1080, 60p files over a wi-fi network - no streaming.

So to share with normal people or even enthusiasts who are not in your home, you have to re-render to a lower spec, losing the whole point and spending a long time doing that even with a good machine.

I have a life, and so do my friends and relatives. They want to see good video and I want to show them. I can't do that with 1080, 60p files without too much hassle.

Yes, in the future, 1080, 60p may be "standard" but I have lots to do, and events and activities to share right now. I can do that easily with stunning highest resolution videos taken at 1080, 60i with what I already have, and the Canon s10 would certainly also produce stunning video in good light at 60i that you can share right now, with no hassle.

OMG , your too funny. I bet none of your friends or relatives could tell the difference between 24Mbsec AVCHD and 17Mbsec AVCHD videos . Some people here like me want the very best video in a consumer 1080p camcorder and 1080p60 is not a showstopper for us. You are chasing your tail if you think we are going agree with your sad story.
jogiba is offline  
post #479 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 04:54 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,991
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sholle View Post

The smaller sensor on the TM700 compared to those on the HFS21 and CX550V and the related DOF issues might be important to some, and irrelevant to others.

Dave, one thing that was clear in the CCI review, was that the overall image of the 700 was not 'marginally' better or the sharpness difference 'difficult to see'. I think you and I both know that, it's very very clear in the review that they were saying this picture was significantly better than any other.

I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I needed no A/B to tell this footage was significantly better than any camera I've yet owned. To be clear, I too owned numerous HD camcorders from Canon, Sony and now Panasonic. I still have my Z5, Canon HV20 and Sony XR500. So I know what these images look like.

You mention chip size and this was my biggest surprise with the 700. Normally you associate a greater dynamic range with a larger chip. Even though the 700 has 3 chips, I still didn't expect to see any improvement in dynamic range as produced by these 3 1/4" chips. I was wrong. What Panasonic has managed to do just in this area is truly remarkable. The resistance to blown highlights is truly amazing. I took a video of myself in my first tests, standing in bright sunlight. Having done these tests with virtually every camcorder I've ever owned, I expected to see hot spots and blown highlights. However this image was almost totally free of blown out highlights. There was just a hint of a 'hot spot' on my cheek. This quality has manifested itself in may of the clips I've taken thus far and tends to make the footage look that much more 'professional'. Nobody really talks about that aspect, but to me it's very important.

Probably the biggest proof of the cam's picture quality was my wife's comment "WOW" when I first popped on the picture. This from a woman who usually says "Ken, I don't know, they both look good", when I'm doing my A/Bs....God's honest truth. She thought my Sony paled by comparison. It was hard to argue that point.

Trust me Dave, this is a bigger jump than I've ever seen from one year's model to the next. Obviously my comments are all relative to the 1080p mode. So somehow I'lll 'struggle' with the 'hassles' and I'll have a huge grin on my face every time one of these 1080p clips pops on my 60" plasma.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #480 of 3783 Old 04-04-2010, 05:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Just to be clear - the Panasonic TM700 seems to be a great camera. If you do not have an HD camcorder and really value resolution, this seems to be the one to get - but beware of the issue of sharing outside your home.

I value sharpness too. I purchased the JVC HM400 last year precisely because it was then by far the highest reolution camcorder, even better than many prosumer camcorders (and still equal in hor. resolution to the new TM700 at 60p). And the fact that the new Panasonic has potentially even higher resolution got me interested in it. But what I see, and everyone else should be aware, is that going to 1080, 60p appears to be the only way to get improved resolution, and that is not costless.
markr041 is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off