Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 19 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #541 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 04:15 PM
Senior Member
 
David Sholle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The storage is inexpensive, but not the processing power required for simultaneous 1080i & 1080p recording. For those that don't like the little fan in the Panny now, this type of recording/decoding would probably require a house fan!

That is probably true about processing power, and there is probably not a big enough demand for dual recording, even though it would be ideal to me. I seem to remember that there was a prosumer camcorder from the big 4 that actually did some form of dual recording.

What I don't understand is why does the TM700 need a fan, while the FH1A, which also shoots 60p and is much more compact, and therefore would have more serious heat issues, does not need a fan? I have never had a heating problem with the FH1A.
David Sholle is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #542 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Newbie
 
akapuya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
trustedreviews.com wrote a great one on this
akapuya is offline  
post #543 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 04:54 PM
Newbie
 
LReavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
"What have you been shooting 60p videos with, the Sanyos or something else?"

I've been shooting with Sanyo - HF1 & HD2000. Resolution slightly lower than my Sony HC-1s, but final output looks better than HC-1's interlaced output when de-interlaced to progressive. And the manual controls on the Sanyo cams are much better - truly impressive.

Incidentally, I do a lot of green-screen chromakey shots, and I definitely can pull a better key with the 60p from the Sanyo cams than from the Sony interlaced clips.

At about 700 lines of horizontal resolution (my shot of a test pattern with cameras on tripods), the Sanyo cams are not too bad; but the 1000 lines of the TM700 certainly would be appreciated - as would the easier manual focus.

I almost always shoot with an external wireless mic set, so the fan noise generally would not be a problem for me. On those rare occasions (like my cruise to Alaska last summer) when I use the on-board mic, the Sony Vegas software plus my Sound Forge generally can tame that type of noise produced by the TM700.

question:

Is there anyway for a mere mortal in the U.S. without corporate discounts available to buy this camera for less than $1000? I saw one on ebay go for $909, but the word that this is a hot camera must have gotten out . . . today I couldn't find anything on ebay even approaching $1000 (Amazon still has them at $1000). Any ideas for a better price?
LReavis is offline  
post #544 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 04:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

But static shots are only testing the resolution of the camera/lens/sensor and base codec implementation.. I would expect CCI increased resolution is just the better resolution motion of 60P- nothing more. However, it does indicate the TM700 can at least exploit the 60P setting. The bad news even its great motion resolution numbers are still away from fully exploiting the FHD standard. And I suspect most of that is jsut the 60P frame rate. Just look at all the motion resolution issues on LCD vs Plasma sets. Different issues, but really hard to break out the real issues vs marketing. Heck, I even saw a Panasonic chart from CES 2009 claiming higher motion resolution then 1080P. Go figure.

And it would help to isolate the camcorder fundamentals if CCI did give the static resolution numbers as a base line, IMHO. After all, not all my videos are filmed like Battlestar Galactica or the Office. I occasionally hold the cam sill and not all my subject display quantum Brownian motion.

Skoor, I still think you have to consider the fact that the camcorders are far more often than not, in motion. At that point the true nature of 1080p can't be duplicated by perfectly deinterlacing 1080i. I agree that for static shots it should, but I don't believe that's the case for motion and explains the significant difference in 1080p rez #s for the Panasonic.

If the next iteration is to more fully exploit the FHD potential, we'll need still better lenses, encoding/decoding and, hold your breath, a bigger fan. OK, we may not need a bigger fan, but I just love to play with the fan crowd.

BTW, FWIW, I was under the impression that the interlacer in the Kuros were desribed as 'perfect'. It hasn't been that difficult to design a perfect deinterlacer for several years now, they're just not that uncommon. I could be wrong about the deinterlacer and maybe it's just very good, not perfect.

I would have to conduct a test as you did. Burning the 1080i AVCHD files to a DVD-R and playing it on my Oppo 83 would reveal that. I know the Oppo does have a perfect deinterlacer. Another option that I'm not sure about is the PS3. I don't generally play back 1080i files from the PS3, but I wonder if it performs the deinterlacing. If so that's another option to better test the 1080i files. The Panasonic 700 can also be set to output 1080p, so I wonder if the cam itself cam perform deinterlacing.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #545 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 05:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by akapuya View Post

trustedreviews.com wrote a great one on this

All the reviews seem to be in agreement, unprecedented PQ. That in itself is a rarity!
Ken Ross is offline  
post #546 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 05:11 PM
Newbie
 
LReavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
question: Is there any time gap when recording on the TM700 when the file size reaches 4gig? I ask because on the Sanyo cams, shooting a long shoot (around 22-min. in the 60p mode, I believe) results in a 10-second gap before the recording continues on to the next file. Since Panasonic seems to have incorporated much of the Sanyo specs but with 3 chips and a better lens, I wonder if it, too, has this quirk?
LReavis is offline  
post #547 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 05:27 PM
Member
 
Volktronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by LReavis View Post

"What have you been shooting 60p videos with, the Sanyos or something else?"

I've been shooting with Sanyo - HF1 & HD2000. Resolution slightly lower than my Sony HC-1s, but final output looks better than HC-1's interlaced output when de-interlaced to progressive. And the manual controls on the Sanyo cams are much better - truly impressive.

Incidentally, I do a lot of green-screen chromakey shots, and I definitely can pull a better key with the 60p from the Sanyo cams than from the Sony interlaced clips.

At about 700 lines of horizontal resolution (my shot of a test pattern with cameras on tripods), the Sanyo cams are not too bad; but the 1000 lines of the TM700 certainly would be appreciated - as would the easier manual focus.

I almost always shoot with an external wireless mic set, so the fan noise generally would not be a problem for me. On those rare occasions (like my cruise to Alaska last summer) when I use the on-board mic, the Sony Vegas software plus my Sound Forge generally can tame that type of noise produced by the TM700.

question:

Is there anyway for a mere mortal in the U.S. without corporate discounts available to buy this camera for less than $1000? I saw one on ebay go for $909, but the word that this is a hot camera must have gotten out . . . today I couldn't find anything on ebay even approaching $1000 (Amazon still has them at $1000). Any ideas for a better price?



http://us.corporateperks.com
Just ordered my tm700 for $750



By the way, those that are playing the footage on the PS3, how are you getting it there?

Thanks
~Zach
Volktronic is offline  
post #548 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 05:41 PM
Senior Member
 
David Sholle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by LReavis View Post

question: Is there any time gap when recording on the TM700 when the file size reaches 4gig? I ask because on the Sanyo cams, shooting a long shoot (around 22-min. in the 60p mode, I believe) results in a 10-second gap before the recording continues on to the next file. Since Panasonic seems to have incorporated much of the Sanyo specs but with 3 chips and a better lens, I wonder if it, too, has this quirk?

That is an interesting question. The TM700 uses AVCHD for its 60i and on down footage, but doesn't use it for 60p. Hopefully there are no gaps at all frame rates, but it certainly could be that it is seamless for the AVCHD footage and a gap for 60p. Someone should check it out. For my purposes, that would not be important, but your mileage might vary.
David Sholle is offline  
post #549 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jogiba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,816
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by LReavis View Post

question: Is there any time gap when recording on the TM700 when the file size reaches 4gig? I ask because on the Sanyo cams, shooting a long shoot (around 22-min. in the 60p mode, I believe) results in a 10-second gap before the recording continues on to the next file. Since Panasonic seems to have incorporated much of the Sanyo specs but with 3 chips and a better lens, I wonder if it, too, has this quirk?

Well if it is caused by the 4GB FAT32 limit on SDHC cards the problem would be fixed using SDXC cards with exFAT file system on the TM700.
jogiba is offline  
post #550 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Member
 
joe41524's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One question about the 1080P mode on the TM700... if the 60i mode is 17Meg/sec, wouldn't the 60p mode require twice the bandwidth to keep the same encoding quality (because there is basically twice the data to encode)?

The TM700 28Meg/sec 60P is only providing 65% more bandwidth for 100% more data?

I'm not bashing, I really do want to understand the mechanics of it... there's a good chance I'm misunderstanding something and this came up in conversation with a friend today.
joe41524 is offline  
post #551 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 06:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
It's like I mentioned in another post, theirs a lot more to it than bit rate. The strength of the encoder and and way the GOP is built can mean a lot.
Now if you were comparing codecs that has nothing but I frames, like AVC Intra for example, the situation would be a little different.

Not nearly as much as I'd like but their have been a lot of native 1080 60p clips to download.
All of the videos that have been up for a week or less except for the fox Video are native 1080 60p from the new Panasonic camcorders.
http://vimeo.com/groups/native1920x108060pclips/videos

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #552 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 06:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

I ordered the TM700 yesterday via Panasonic EPP. It will be my first HD camcorder. I was very excited when I read about the features and specs, but now I'm thinking I may end up being disappointed for the following reasons.

I would like to shoot at either 1080p/24 or 1080p/60 and archive to Blu-ray, and possibly downsample to SD DVD for some family members. I realized BD does not support 1080p/60, which is why I am fine with 1080p/24. But now I understand Panasonic's version of 24p is "Digital Cinema" as opposed to 24p Native. Are they still using a 60i 'wrapper' (not entirely sure how they are accomplishing this) or are the simply shooting at 60p and shucking off every 2/3 frame to get to 24P?

What editing software would I need to to very basic editing of footage and burn to Blu-ray @ 1080p/24? Seems like I might need Cineform Neoscene, but I'm not 100%. And should I wait for Nero 10 for burning?

Sorry for so many questions, but I know calling Panasonic will not yield the answers I'm looking for.

Can anyone shed some light on my questions above?
Sam S is online now  
post #553 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 07:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Unfortunately, and to my surprise, 24p has pull-down added. Yes NeoScene would be perfect for removing the pull-down. It still would have been better if you didn't have to go through one extra step. Still, the cheapest camcorder that has 24p without pull-down is the HF S21 which is $1,400 and then the HMC40 for $1850.

To be safe, Edius Neo 2 Booster may be the best option for editing although Nero 10 does look very promising especially if you can't afford the $200 for Edius Neo 2 Booster.

Anyway, theirs talk about Neo 2 Booster having a pull-down remover built in although I'm not so sure it'll be better than NeoScene.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #554 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 07:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Thanks Paulo. If I'm capturing at 24p, what format is the camcorder outputting? I mean if you are saying the pulldown frames will have to be removed, that seems to imply the format I'll ultimately be editing is 1080p/60.
Sam S is online now  
post #555 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 07:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
The chip outputs 24 frames per second but it gets recorded as 60i. With NeoScene you just put the clip inside and it outputs a pure CineForm AVI 24p file automatically. You then put that AVI file into your editor.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #556 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 07:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 19
OK, I think that makes sense. So, I could take the 24p output that CineForm gives me, and do light editing, and format either a Blu-ray or SD DVD with Nero 10?

Am I going down the wrong path? I really want to capture images progressively, and end up with a progressive Blu-ray image. The resulting DVD output is not as important. I imagine Nero could input the proper flags if I'm going to do 480i/30 DVDs.
Sam S is online now  
post #557 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Yes, for authoring to Blu-Ray, it's that simple.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #558 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 07:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Thanks again. It's a shame I have to spend $129 on Cineform just to get proper 24p output that the camera is supposedly capturing
Sam S is online now  
post #559 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 08:03 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volktronic View Post

By the way, those that are playing the footage on the PS3, how are you getting it there?

Thanks
~Zach

Zach, just record to an SDHC card and you're good to go. I've been recording to the internal memory, so all I did was hook it up to the computer which then recognizes as another drive. From there you have access to any of the files on the internal drive. At that point it's easy to copy any of the files to an SDHC card which you then insert into the PS3.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #560 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 08:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

I don't know. I wondered about that, but just assumed the set not the cam would do it. Have no way of testing and don't see any options on my HDTV set that would affect that choice either. But that would explain why your Kuro's perfect interlacer would be bypassed if the TM700 is "trying" to do it.

Well not exactly. I originally had the 700 set to 'Auto' on the output (which I would have thought would have defaulted to 1080p) and I could have sworn I saw the Kuro register 1080i when I had originally played a 1080i clip.

I'll try the experiment tomorrow using both the 700 and the PS3 with a 1080i clip. I'll need to reshoot a 1080i clip since I think I had only one which I deleted. Everything has been 1080p for me.

BTW, unfortunately the Oppo has no SD card input. I wish it did since it would make the testing so much easier. Hey, I'll probably wind up with one of the first Panny 60p BD players too.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #561 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 08:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe41524 View Post

One question about the 1080P mode on the TM700... if the 60i mode is 17Meg/sec, wouldn't the 60p mode require twice the bandwidth to keep the same encoding quality (because there is basically twice the data to encode)?

The TM700 28Meg/sec 60P is only providing 65% more bandwidth for 100% more data?

I'm not bashing, I really do want to understand the mechanics of it... there's a good chance I'm misunderstanding something and this came up in conversation with a friend today.

Joe, it's not purely AVCHD, it's a variant that uses MPEG4. So it's not apples to apples in terms of compression
Ken Ross is offline  
post #562 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 08:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Ken, are you going to make any Blu-rays from the footage you shot?
Sam S is online now  
post #563 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 08:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Sam, eventually for material I truly want to edit. If you've read my posts, I don't edit the vast majority of what I shoot, I simply watch back from the camcorder to my HDTV. The one notable exception being a trip to Alaska where I had over 3 hours of footage. That needed editing and for me was worth the effort.

But to play anything back in 60p via disc, we'll have to wait for the upcoming 60p BD players from Panasonic. I suspect it won't be too long.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #564 of 3783 Old 04-05-2010, 08:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
For now people can get themselves a PS3 to playback 1080 60p files. I know I've mentioned this a lot but I don't think most people will have issues. Once the audio didn't play in my PS3, I started to play the clips over again and the audio got live again.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #565 of 3783 Old 04-06-2010, 05:06 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

For now people can get themselves a PS3 to playback 1080 60p files. I know I've mentioned this a lot but I don't think most people will have issues. Once the audio didn't play in my PS3, I started to play the clips over again and the audio got live again.

I wonder if it's a receiver issue not kicking in to the proper audio decoding.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #566 of 3783 Old 04-06-2010, 05:10 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

Cased closed for 1080i vs 1080P. Uh, in 1988? Yes, 1988.

"...However, the DoD does not allow for the production and dissemination of source material in the 1080i HDTV interlace format because the experts determined that it has significant motion image impairment and an inefficient use of scarce bandwidth, both issues of concern for military missions and applications. ..."

"...The simplest way to consider the relative maturity and thus future application of HDTV technology is as follows. Consider that 1080i (1035i) was introduced over 18 years ago and can be considered to be the first generation of HDTV, based in large part on analog techniques. 720p technology can be correctly characterized as the second generation of HDTV, delivering superior images, using less bandwidth, at a price point comparable to or less expensive than interlace technology. Therefore, from a long term financial investment point of view 720p is better than 1080i because 720p will be the future HD imaging standard for some time to come, whereas 1080 interlace is at best an interim technology, built upon legacy equipment and standards, and serves only as a temporary measure arrived at before 720p was a viable alternative. When computer "friendliness" is considered, 720p technology is significantly less expensive than interlace technology. As technology advances permit even higher bandwidth and processing power, the advent of all progressive, higher resolution formats such as 1080 progressive will usher in the third generation of HDTV. ..."


General Henry H. Shelton, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff speaking before the 105th Congress, Committee on National Security, United States House of Representative on 5 February 1998

http://www.atd.net/HDTV_faq.html

It's funny Skoor, as big an advocate as I am for the superior image quality of 1080p on the 700, I never felt the same way about 720p vs 1080i broadcasting.

We used to have these arguments on AVS years ago when HD was new. I always found superior detail in 1080i broadcasts vs 720p. It was easy to see with many sports broadcasts on CBS vs ESPN or ABC. Interlacing artifacts were never so bad IMO that it outweighed the superior detail of 1080i.

But that's an old argument and I'm grateful for the 700 and its 1080p capability. Best of both worlds, detail and no artifacts.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #567 of 3783 Old 04-06-2010, 05:15 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,965
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked: 1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

A poster asked about the compression of all the 2x data of 60P vs 60i, a question I wondered also.

Found this.

"Not only is interlaced television a legacy of the past but interlaced signals are also inefficient to compress: interlaced costs bits. While a progressive
60p format has twice the data rate (about 3Gbps) of the equivalent interlaced video, the signal exhibits much stronger vertical correlation and, as such, compresses more easily to about 1.2 times more bits than the interlaced ones."

Let's try it. The max for AVCHD is 24 for 60i, so 24 x 1.2 = 28.8. Close enough for government work to the TM700's 60P stated bit rate of 28 mbps.

So if the author is correct, the TM700 is dong the equivalent of AVCHD's max 24 mbps bit rate today but you are getting the advantage of 60P for 4 more mbps.

Do we have a winner?

http://www.ambarella.com/docs/1080p60.pdf

Oh we have a winner, we know that, but I believe (I could be wrong) that we still need to factor in the fact that we are dealing with what is essentially 2 different compression schemes. One for 1080i and Panasonic's implementation of MPEG4/AVCHD for 1080p. So it seems it's not quite apples to apples. Remember that the bitrate for 1080p falls outside of the AVCHD specs.

I'll shoot some 1080i clips later and either burn it to a DVD-R and see how it looks on the Oppo or just put it on a card and play it in the PS3. Either way I'll get the Kuro''s deinterlacing out of the picture.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #568 of 3783 Old 04-06-2010, 05:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jogiba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,816
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 69
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....85&ts%20tart=0

Quote:


As a workaround you can take the MTS files (in the camera STREAM folder file structure on the desktop mounted disks) into TOAST and convert to any format there. ProRes 422 HQ retains top quality but maxes out the file size!

Quote:


As another work-around if you don't want to buy Toast, you could try running it through the free Handbrake application and converting into a plain MP4 file. You also have the option to max out the quality with the same issue of huge file size.

Quote:


I created an Automator workflow to make it a simple drag-and-drop process. You can get it from my MobileMe public folder (http://public.me.com/catservant) and it's named Rewrap2M4V.app.

It requires you to get the ClipGrab application (http://clipgrab.de/download_en.html) because it uses the copy of ffmpeg embedded in ClipGrab's application bundle (it's the only up-to-date compiled copy I could find reasonably easily). ClipGrab must be installed in the /Applications folder in order for the workflow to work; the workflow itself can be installed anywhere.

Then, just drag and drop the .m2ts or .mts files onto Rewrap2M4V.app. The converted files will have the same name with a .m4v extension appended.

jogiba is offline  
post #569 of 3783 Old 04-06-2010, 06:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 25
this is great - just tried the Handbrake trick - it works!
Webmonkey is offline  
post #570 of 3783 Old 04-06-2010, 06:30 AM
Member
 
HTPCfreddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My TM700 arrived 5 days ago and I have been recording various sample video to get used to the new camcorder. The footage from the 1080 60p samples look incredible on my 1080p 50" plasma display. Even the HA 1080 60i samples (max AVCHD mode for this camcorder=17 Mb/s) look very good. I am not new to using camcorders (Canon Optura Pi -> Panny PVR-GS250 -> Panny HDC-TM700), but I am very concerned about editing the footage. Tonight, I have a chance to try my Sony Vegas Movie Studio to edit the sample 1080 60p recordings.

My PC is a Core2Duo E8400 @ 3GHz, 8GB RAM, Raid 0 HDs, and Win7-64bit. Based on all the comments I've seen so far about editing video, my system will likely fall on it's knees. Render time after edits is not crucial for me, but having jerky video/audio in previews while editing is unacceptable. The first plan (1) I can get a Core2Quad 9550 (2.83GHz) for $179 which will simply drop into my PC system and hope that this will work for editing. The second plan (2): i7 930 + i7 Motherboard + 6GB DDR3 + Case + PowerSupply for $800. I'd like to spend less if possible (plan 1) to meet the needs for
1080 60p editing but also I welcome any comments on PC hardware recommendations.

If one was to buy the Cineform CODEC, how do you use it for post process? For example, does one get a TM700 .mt2s file and read it into a utility to convert to a Cineform file? Then, the cineform file can be edited with Vegas Movie Studio or Edius Neo Booster?
HTPCfreddy is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off