Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3783 Old 04-07-2010, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's good news Tom, since every single Sony I've owned has been poor to just OK with autofocus. My prosumer Z5 is a real crapshoot to use in autofocus and I try to avoid it as much as possible. But it does seem there's no change in PQ from my 500 based on clips I've seen. There was just no contest in PQ between my 500 and 700.

Yeah, based on what I've read here and in the specs and on what Sony didn't say (why discuss things that didn't change), I think the CX550 and the CX500 have the exact same sensor chip and the PQ should be the same except maybe in these cases:

1. The 550's walking stabilization algorithms sound improved over the 500.
2. The iAuto settings may do better in the 550 than the 500 where they apply, which I don't think is in all filming scenarios. With iAuto off outside of its scope, I suspect the auto settings of both cams produce the same video.
3. The 550s 24Mbs mode may provide better PQ in some very limited cases (the classic 24Mbs vs 17Mbs discussion).
4. The improved autofocus should mean more of the 550s video is in focus if the videographer tends to pan and zoom and otherwise move the camcorder around a lot. I have one scenario where I'd like to see it - close-up video of moving O-gauge model trains. I have found the 500 has to be set up very carefully to do well with this scenario, and there are tons of videos on YouTube showing how poorly most cams do with this scenario.

Many people love the changes in focal length in the 550; I am the opposite, I prefer the focal length range in the 500. Generally, I don't consider this a PQ "change". I would expect the PQ from a 500 with a good wide-angle converter to be equivalent to the PQ from the 550's native full wide-angle setting.

So to bring this back to this Panasonic thread, I would generally expect comparisons of PQ for a 500 or a 550 against a 700 to be roughly equivalent unless there's some specific factor where we find out the 550 is unexpectedly different.
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post #632 of 3783 Old 04-07-2010, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

If anyone wants to see a great test of the 700 vs the Sony 550, watch this! If this doesn't show the difference in PQ, I don't know what does. I strongly suggest you download the video to watch it since it will show it in a higher resolution.

http://vimeo.com/10644846

Guys, how do you download the video file from vimeo? I'd like to watch that video at full resolution.
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post #633 of 3783 Old 04-07-2010, 07:58 PM
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You have to first be signed in. Once you do that and your on the video page, the download link will be on the right side.
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post #634 of 3783 Old 04-07-2010, 11:18 PM
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Well guys, I have to admit, after all the reading I've done here, and research etc. I am ready to buy this camcorder with confidence.

Fan issue - Simple, get an external microphone = superior sound (which will always be better than any standard microphone provided on any consumer camcorder).

1080p60 Editing Issue - Many options currently exist to edit with support for more coming within the month.

1080p60 Sharing Issue - I've seen this issue come up but no discussed. Simple - If I want to watch my own 1080p60 footage, I'll be able to do so. Within the year, all manufacturers will adopt 1080p60 footage to be played back on everything so no worries longterm. Shorterm? Easy, just convert my footage from 1080p60 to 1080p30. You will retain the same clarity/sharpness/PQ level that you see in the 1080p60 per frame. Sure, it may not playback as smooth as 1080i60, but its going to be a hell of a lot better looking and not as soft as 1080i60. Plus - you wont' have to worry about the end result because no matter whether your user watches it on HDTV or Computer Monitor, its going to look great. Not so with interlaced footage. There is no guarantee that someone is going to have an amazing deinterlacer built into their TV set.

Also, how come no one mentioned 720p60 - again another easy format to go to. Going from 1080p60 to 1080p30 or 720p60 is easy and retains the same great image quality.

Also, I'd like to mention and give credit to Volktronic and LReavis for mentioning and confirming the us corporate perks website. Will be getting my TM700 for $750 w/ free shipping. Can't beat that.

So if your still on the fence about whether to get a Sony/Canon - just remember, they only record in 1080i60. And those camcorders each cost ~$1400. I'd rather just save the money and buy a TM700 AND a Nikon 50mm f1.4 lens for my DSLR
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post #635 of 3783 Old 04-07-2010, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NammyBoy View Post

Hi All,

I just bought the TM700 yesterday, and should arrive sometime next week. This is my first camcorder, so I have very little experience dealing with video. What really drew me to this camcorder is the image quality and the wide angle lens. But at 35mm, it still isn't wide enough for me (from my experience as a hobbyist photographer).

What are some options out there for wide angle adapters? I did a quick Google search, and it seems a lot of people are pretty content with the Raynox HD6600 and HD7000. The HD6600 is a .66x and comes in a 49mm filter size (as well as 52mm and 58mm) whereas the HD7000 is a .7x and comes in 58mm filter size only. The HD7000 seems to do a bit better if you need to retain zoom function with the wide angle conversion on, but the HD6600 seems to do a bit better when you are zoomed all the way out (although at 23.1mm equivalent, that's quite wide and I wonder if there will be too much distortion).

So my questions to those with experience with these wide angle adapters:
1) HD7000 or HD6600? Or something else? Would the .66x be too much for an already decently wide 35mm lens?

2) If I were to get the HD6600, should I get it in the 49mm filter size to reduce weight, or should I go with the 52mm size or even 58mm so that I reduce the likelihood of vignetting? Or would the larger sizes reduce quality because you're using less of the lens?

3) Any other suggestions for wanting more wide angle out of the TM700?

Thank you!
~Nam

So I posted this question a while back and got no responses--apparently everyone else is plenty happy with 35mm wide. But those who are not, I bought the Raynox HD6600, with a 52mm filter size and a 46mm to 52mm step-up ring. Unfortunately, there is heavy vignetting in the videos at full wide, that does not disappear until the camera is zoomed in nearly to 35mm, defeating the purpose of the wide angle adapter.

The problem comes from the fact that a step-up ring is required when using the Raynox HD6600, which only comes in 43mm, 49mm, 52mm and 58mm. The step-up ring places the wide angle adapter a few millimeters further away from the lens, reducing the angle of light that can reach the TM700's lens and causes heavy vignetting. I removed the step-up ring, and held the wide angle lens against the camera with my left hand, and the vignetting disappeared. It seems that it doesn't matter what filter size you order the HD6600 in because the optical elements are the same, but the rear mount is different to fit the different filter sizes. I don't think the HD6600 is compatible with the TM700, unless they were to come out with a 46mm filter thread, eliminating the need for a step-up ring.

I think that the HD7000, which has a 0.7x magnification probably has a much higher likelihood of working. This is because the smallest rear diameter is 58mm, and and the front element is much wider with a front filter size of 82mm (vs. 72mm). I am going to see if the shop I purchased the HD6600 from will allow me to exchange it for the HD7000.

EDIT: here's what you guys are missing out on... 23mm vs. 35mm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1ocxc2Op-Y
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post #636 of 3783 Old 04-07-2010, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NammyBoy View Post

So I posted this question a while back and got no responses--apparently everyone else is plenty happy with 35mm wide. But those who are not, I bought the Raynox HD6600, with a 52mm filter size and a 46mm to 52mm step-up ring. Unfortunately, there is heavy vignetting in the videos at full wide, that does not disappear until the camera is zoomed in nearly to 35mm, defeating the purpose of the wide angle adapter.

The problem comes from the fact that a step-up ring is required when using the Raynox HD6600, which only comes in 43mm, 49mm, 52mm and 58mm. The step-up ring places the wide angle adapter a few millimeters further away from the lens, reducing the angle of light that can reach the TM700's lens and causes heavy vignetting. I removed the step-up ring, and held the wide angle lens against the camera with my left hand, and the vignetting disappeared. It seems that it doesn't matter what filter size you order the HD6600 in because the optical elements are the same, but the rear mount is different to fit the different filter sizes. I don't think the HD6600 is compatible with the TM700, unless they were to come out with a 46mm filter thread, eliminating the need for a step-up ring.

I think that the HD7000, which has a 0.7x magnification probably has a much higher likelihood of working. This is because the smallest rear diameter is 58mm, and and the front element is much wider with a front filter size of 82mm (vs. 72mm). I am going to see if the shop I purchased the HD6600 from will allow me to exchange it for the HD7000.

I don't understand why your not using the lens suggested by Panasonic on their website?

http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/h...cessories.html

Rick
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post #637 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich121 View Post

I don't understand why your not using the lens suggested by Panasonic on their website?

Rick

I couldn't find any US retailers that sell it (and I need it by this weekend), and I know that the Canon camp has used the Raynox with very good results, and tested to be better than what Canon themselves had to offer. Sorta like how people prefer to use the Rode Videomic over Canon's Shotgun Mic. Just because it's labeled Panasonic and costs twice as much doesn't mean it's better. Plus this one is 0.66x vs. 0.70x. I think I can make it work if I can find a thinner step-up ring.
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post #638 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 01:04 AM
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Will the TM-300 take external mics like Rode video and stereo or is it too small to handle them.
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post #639 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 03:27 AM
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Hi, I've been watching this thread with great interest because I'm in the market for a new HD camera. I'm leaning towards the TM700 but have some concerns about the resulting 60P file.

I have a Core2 Duo E8400 Intel CPU, with a 8800 GTS 512MB Nvidia graphics card.

I don't have the horsepower to play the 60P files smoothly (I've tested with a bunch of Vimeo source downloads), but with my mobo I can drop in a Quad Q9550 cpu easily... would this make a difference in viewing 60P files (i know it would for editing, just not sure for viewing).

Thanks!
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post #640 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeAddct View Post

Hi, I've been watching this thread with great interest because I'm in the market for a new HD camera. I'm leaning towards the TM700 but have some concerns about the resulting 60P file.

I have a Core2 Duo E8400 Intel CPU, with a 8800 GTS 512MB Nvidia graphics card.

I don't have the horsepower to play the 60P files smoothly (I've tested with a bunch of Vimeo source downloads), but with my mobo I can drop in a Quad Q9550 cpu easily... would this make a difference in viewing 60P files (i know it would for editing, just not sure for viewing).

Thanks!

I have the exact same CPU with 8GB RAM and similar issue(s). My TM700 1080 60P recordings don't play back smoothly in Win7 64bit. I've heard that our E8400 are great overclockers but I don't really want to go that route. The recordings are also very difficult to edit in Vegas Movie Studio (got slightly better when I bumped up the preview buffer from 128MB to 1024MB) and my trial version of Edius Neo.

Anyways, I'm seriously considering dropping some coin for a Q9550 and hoping that meets my playback and editing needs or else I may have to go full throttle with an i7 930 + socket 1366 motherboard + 6GB DDR3 which is 3 times as much coin as just plopping in a Q9550
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post #641 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeAddct View Post

Hi, I've been watching this thread with great interest because I'm in the market for a new HD camera. I'm leaning towards the TM700 but have some concerns about the resulting 60P file.

I have a Core2 Duo E8400 Intel CPU, with a 8800 GTS 512MB Nvidia graphics card.

I don't have the horsepower to play the 60P files smoothly (I've tested with a bunch of Vimeo source downloads), but with my mobo I can drop in a Quad Q9550 cpu easily... would this make a difference in viewing 60P files (i know it would for editing, just not sure for viewing).

Thanks!

I have Core 2 Duo 3.06GHZ in my macbook pro - it should be able to play it - but current are some issues with the new Panny format, Sanyo 1080P60 playes fine, so does MP4 and AIC versions of the Panny files.
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post #642 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 05:19 AM
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Hi!

What bag would be best suited for the TM700? I'm looking for something small that fits the camera and maybe extra memorycards. For those of you who already own the camera, what bags are you using?
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post #643 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

On the TM700 low light capability, this is one area I am least impressive. I don't like the low light shots with auto gain and override it. I would rather have a darker, cleaner (and to me more realistic shot) then the nosy, bright picture.

Also, what I have noticed it that just like most digital cameras over its base ISO (the gain), the manufacture either tries to hide the increased noise by smoothing the picture or keeps most of the native sensor resoluton but you see more noise (or "grain").

I prefer the approach of quality over the lost of resoluton to get the smooth, creamy picture. I am probably influenced by years of 35mm film use. Nikon's DSLRs take this approach. Others don't.

Unfortunately, Panasonic chose the creamy look and I definitely notice the loss in critical viewing of low detail. No a deal beaker, but it is just not that super sharp picture I love. And even at 60P is is noticeable. Don't know about Sony 550V, but thier DSLRd go for the creamy look vs Nikon. I would expect the same for the cam.

Guess can't have everything.

And on the Sony's 550V, I thought its focus was rather slow or tried to hang on to the prior focus too long. Regardless, I did not like. But didn't spend much time checking it out, since it was rapidly becoming a distant 2nd over TM700. The viewfinder just looked cheap. The image just confirmed it. They should I just left it off. A real turn-off for me.

The TM700 really was petty easy. Good fast F1.5, reasonable WA lens, long zoom, no flair yet, 46mm filter, much discussed 60P bonus, and MRSP lower than Sony. Not sure about the OIS difference. And I can get EPP pricing making its hundreds cheaper. However, the TM700 still might have been the choice if the pricing was reversed. Just becasue of 60P.

I just think Panasonic understands the high-end cam market needs to have a lower price than the $1300-1500 of past. At some point with all the alternatives, even a MRSP of $1000 is gong to be way too much for most folks. They will go the "HD" $300-400 cam or just cameras with video.

Regarding the low light, I compared the hs350 and the xr550. The hs350 can see where the xr550 can't. I mean the xr550 have no noise at all, while the hs350 have noise everywhere, but the colors are vivid in the hs350 and you can see the details, while the xr550, can not distinguise at low light the colors, and gives you an overall dark image.
Would u use any program or way to bright up dark low light videos of the xr550 ?...or make the color vivids and distingush in low light among the different colors ? The xr550 can not do this 2 things and lose vs hs350, but xr550 wins a lot over noise...no noise
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post #644 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sushinut View Post

if possible could you either post your stairs video with the 550 or at least describe how you walked up the stairs and held the 550? Default settings with the 550 I assume. Just so a comparable tm700 recording can be done.

Here's my video from CX550. The OIS is pretty amazing on this camera. I can't wait to compare to TM700...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pegWqe0XQng
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post #645 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 06:30 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKpNiLoqI94

Quote:


it works quite well. it was definately a good buy. i like how you can zoom in all the way without distoring your image.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...58mm_0_7x.html
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post #646 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 08:14 AM
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Has anyone tried using Final Cut Pro to edit videos? Will it work? We have an imac and need to edit using our mac.
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post #647 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 09:17 AM
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Okay, I am guessing I am just dense, but here it goes.

I can not figure out the class on the memory card. I have looked all over the web. What class sdhc card should I buy for the TM700? What does it take to record in 1080 60p? I called Panasonic and asked. They said since it's not in the documentation it will take any card for any class at any recording quality. I don't believe them. The price difference in class 4, 6 and 10 is huge. What is the minimum and what is recommended by you the current users.

Thanks
Dan
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post #648 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bluetobb View Post

Okay, I am guessing I am just dense, but here it goes.

I can not figure out the class on the memory card. I have looked all over the web. What class sdhc card should I buy for the TM700? What does it take to record in 1080 60p? I called Panasonic and asked. They said since it's not in the documentation it will take any card for any class at any recording quality. I don't believe them. The price difference in class 4, 6 and 10 is huge. What is the minimum and what is recommended by you the current users.

Thanks
Dan

Class 6 should be OK. Price difference between Class 6 and Class 4 cards is very small even for 32 GB cards. You can get a good Class 6 Patriot 32 GB card for around $90.
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post #649 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 09:25 AM
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To be on the safe side, you should get class 6 cards especially for the 1080 60p mode. The last thing you need is to record something important and the camcorder decides to stop recording.
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post #650 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by musicmali View Post

Has anyone tried using Final Cut Pro to edit videos? Will it work? We have an imac and need to edit using our mac.

If the files are rewrapped as MP4 files (see my earlier post), iMovie doesn't have any problems with them, so I doubt FCP would either. I believe you'll lose 5.1 surround sound though.
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post #651 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 09:38 AM
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I have used the PAL version of the HDC-SD700 for just over a week [it has been on sale at the Tottenham Court Road dealers in London since late March but has not yet reached the national UK distributors].

Two observations I have not noticed on this board before:

1] The sharpness, saturation and gamma of the out-of camera 1080p50 *.mts files seem to be quite conservative - which is good because this allows headroom for colour grading and other adjustments in post to match the intended player. I wonder if Panasonic have used something like
the "Cine-like D:" “dynamic” tone curve mentioned by Adam Wilt in his review of the HMC40:


2] The time-lapse mode is a disappointment: Panasonic seem to use the approximately their lowest bitrate for the timelapse movies which means that the movies have no high frequency detail. This surprised me because I would have thought that a time lapse would have been recorded progresively, but I have to say that the time lapse movies don't look good.

Otherwise the movie quality has been excellent.

Otherwise the 1080p
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post #652 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 10:00 AM
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Anyone have any recommendations for a 5.1 external mic to attach to this camcorder? So far it seems that the Rode Mic is getting great reviews from people but that means you'll lose the 5.1 and get only Stereo - which isn't a bad thing either. I'm just curious.

Also, if you attach an external mic, is there a way to automatically control the volume so it doesn't peak in the event something very very loud happens?
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post #653 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenfields View Post

I have used the PAL version of the HDC-SD700 for just over a week [it has been on sale at the Tottenham Court Road dealers in London since late March but has not yet reached the national UK distributors].

Two observations I have not noticed on this board before:

1] The sharpness, saturation and gamma of the out-of camera 1080p50 *.mts files seem to be quite conservative - which is good because this allows headroom for colour grading and other adjustments in post to match the intended player. I wonder if Panasonic have used something like
the "Cine-like D:" “dynamic” tone curve mentioned by Adam Wilt in his review of the HMC40:


2] The time-lapse mode is a disappointment: Panasonic seem to use the approximately their lowest bitrate for the timelapse movies which means that the movies have no high frequency detail. This surprised me because I would have thought that a time lapse would have been recorded progresively, but I have to say that the time lapse movies don't look good.

Otherwise the movie quality has been excellent.

Otherwise the 1080p

2 exaggerated .....
the time lapse using a bitrate of 14mbps for a 50i is already high enough and eventually you move meter that are not are still

for me it is already as much as bitrate

are the optimal time lapse
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post #654 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 10:28 AM
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Thanks for the info adit and Paulo Teixeira. Now I just need a bag!
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post #655 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rico90 View Post

Hi!

What bag would be best suited for the TM700? I'm looking for something small that fits the camera and maybe extra memorycards. For those of you who already own the camera, what bags are you using?

I got a Lowepro Edit 110 bag, seems like enough space for what I need without being too big.
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post #656 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeAddct View Post

Hi, I've been watching this thread with great interest because I'm in the market for a new HD camera. I'm leaning towards the TM700 but have some concerns about the resulting 60P file.

I have a Core2 Duo E8400 Intel CPU, with a 8800 GTS 512MB Nvidia graphics card.

I don't have the horsepower to play the 60P files smoothly (I've tested with a bunch of Vimeo source downloads), but with my mobo I can drop in a Quad Q9550 cpu easily... would this make a difference in viewing 60P files (i know it would for editing, just not sure for viewing).

Thanks!

I did a similar upgrade from a duo to a quad and found that I still had stumbles with 60p mp4/AVCHD files. That's why I always re-encode all my video files to either PicVideo or Cineform intermediates. When I put them on a fast hard disk (or, better yet, a RAID 0 array), everything purrs smooth as silk. I always edit my files (with Sony's Vegas), and editing turns from nightmare to dream when I do that.

I paid $30 for the PicVideo, but the price has gone up. However, if you search the web, there is a British company that still offers it for $40, download. Highly recommended.
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post #657 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 11:38 AM
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Maybe a good bag.. I just brought 1

http://www.sellnsend.com/Items/lpcirrus120black-pak
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post #658 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 11:40 AM
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Here's a slightly dumb question...not sure if it was completely answered already:
I have an "old" Panasonic 42" 9uk, specs say the following (I have both a component and HDMI blade):
1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/24p, 1080/24sf, 1080/25p, 1080/30p, 720/60p, 720/50p, 480/60p, 480/60i signal compatibility

My BD60 doesn't play 1080/60p, so I would have to directly connect the tm700 to the display right? Or would I have to do a conversion to 720/60p? Is there any real benefit to record in 1080/60p for my current display? I plan to try it out, but would like to know from a technical point of view if I'm really seeing a better picture. I played a brief recording of my son out on an Easter egg hunt using the default HG setting and it looked nice to me. Then again he's only 3.5 and was just walking and trying not to get clobbered by the older kids .
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post #659 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Gull View Post

So to bring this back to this Panasonic thread, I would generally expect comparisons of PQ for a 500 or a 550 against a 700 to be roughly equivalent unless there's some specific factor where we find out the 550 is unexpectedly different.

Yeah, it's funny Tom, almost all the 550 videos I've seen look exactly as if they were shot with my 500. I see the same flesh tones, which I think are definitely better on the 700. I see the same overall color rendition, the same nutty greens in some cases (a real sore point with me...sometimes way too saturated and bluish on my 500 no matter how I set it!) and, what I also disliked in my 500, the same tendency to blow out highlights much too quickly.

All these problems are solved in my 700 footage. In fact I'd gladly give up some degree of stabilization improvement (although Sony mentions nothing about that on their website when I first started shopping) for the better PQ of the 700. As I've said before, I can easily work around a small bit of OIS disparity but there's not much I can do for colors that don't look right in some cases and certainly for blown out highlights.

That's what's made me such a fan of the 700. The major reason I took my Z5 on my Alaska trip was due to the greater dynamic range (my wife thought I was crazy lugging that thing!), but I see that same dynamic range of my Z5 in the 700... but with better colors, detail and sharpness.
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post #660 of 3783 Old 04-08-2010, 12:33 PM
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Besides all the dicsussion about 50/60p editing problems - what are the 700 owners general impression of the 24/25p and 50/60i when it comes to image quality?


It could be a place to start, until editing software catches up....
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