Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 3783 Old 02-09-2010, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/09/p...0p-camcorders/

Pretty interesting.

- Support 1080p60, i60 and p24
- Better "Power OIS"
- 240GB HDD or 64GB flash models
- 3" touch-screen LCD
- 5.1 Audio, zoom mic and wind noise canceller
- "3MOS" sensor with 7.59MP for video, and 14.2MP stills
- 35mm F/1.5 wide angle lens, 12x zoom

I wonder how Panasonic got to support 1080p60 on the AVCHD format (camcorder's got the label)...
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post #2 of 3783 Old 02-09-2010, 09:42 PM
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I don't know what's more shocking. f/1.5 lens or a 1080 60p mode.

Looks like the full acquisition of Sanyo allowed them to more easily offer a 1080 60p mode. It doesn't have to be part of the AVCHD spec. You can have more than one format if you want to. For example some JVC camcorders records to both AVCHD and MPEG2 files.
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post #3 of 3783 Old 02-09-2010, 09:53 PM
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i wonder if that is a real focus ring?
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post #4 of 3783 Old 02-09-2010, 10:10 PM
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Since the previous versions had a focusing ring, their is no reason that these shouldn't.
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post #5 of 3783 Old 02-09-2010, 10:48 PM
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I found these info:

"At the highest video resolution and frame rate (1920 by 1080 at 60 fps), both camcorders record MPEG-4 video using the H.264 codec at a 28-megabits-per-second bit rate. That's higher than the bit rate the AVCHD format supports (24 mbps), which means that the file sizes should be a bit bigger, but the raw footage is compatible with most video editing and playback software. Both camcorders also shoot 1980-by-1080-resolution AVCHD video at lower bit rates: 17 mbps, 13 mbps, 9 mbps, and 5 mbps."

Is it already time to sell my HS350 ?

http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n100210-1.html

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/tm700/

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/n...13_340433.html

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/s...09_341567.html
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post #6 of 3783 Old 02-09-2010, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

I don't know what's more shocking. f/1.5 lens or a 1080 60p mode.

Looks like the full acquisition of Sanyo allowed them to more easily offer a 1080 60p mode. It doesn't have to be part of the AVCHD spec. You can have more than one format if you want to. For example some JVC camcorders records to both AVCHD and MPEG2 files.

But JVC isn't one of the co-writer/owner of the AVCHD format, like Panasonic is. It's a little weird to me that Panasonic went the MP4 route when they could have simply rev'ed up the AVCHD spec. With MP4 support, they've got a new set of licensing to pay. IMO, this might actually be the begining of the end for the AVCHD format.
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post #7 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 12:02 AM
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post #8 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 11:45 AM
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It also shows clear support for SDXC, fwiw.

-Suntan
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post #9 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 04:05 PM
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You have to admit: It's a great time to be a consumer. Canon, Panasonic, and Sony are all driving each other hard to innovate and the results are excellent camcorders that each have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's going to be really difficult to make a decision between the HDC-TM700, HDR-CX550V, and HF S21.
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post #10 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 06:19 PM
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wow, $1,873!

I'll stick with my $499 hf200 me thinks
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post #11 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyr-Sog View Post

wow, $1,873!

I'll stick with my $499 hf200 me thinks


That will be a good way to kill the format before it really takes off. Now anyone who opts in will have a real b-itch to complain about, dollar for dollar
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post #12 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 09:23 PM
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Electronics are usually significantly more money in the UK than the U.S. The US price will be much less than that. My estimate is $1,300 for the TM700.
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post #13 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Where's that number coming from?
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post #14 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 10:19 PM
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The $1,873 figure is from your link. Engadget undated their article. That's the UK price converted to U.S. dollars.
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post #15 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 11:29 PM
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I think I will buy the xr550 because I need a camorder that got a 37mm lens ring.
Than I am thinking to sell my hs350 and maybe later buy the hs700.
The thing is that, how much money could I make off my hs 350 ?

Thanks
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post #16 of 3783 Old 02-10-2010, 11:48 PM
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You'd be lucky if you can sell it for $800.
Here are EBAY prices for brand new models.
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories
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post #17 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

The $1,873 figure is from your link. Engadget undated their article. That's the UK price converted to U.S. dollars.

Thanks. Looked everywhere except my own link.

That price most probably includes VAT and that infamous extra camcorder tax (from what I understand, taxes are precharged in the UK) and is MSRP, so I would be really surprised if the cams would sell over $1400 in the US.

$1900 is neighboring the prosumer's price bracket. :/
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post #18 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 12:55 AM
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I was going to fix what I wrote but you just had to quote me. It was supposed to be updated not undated.

Anyway, that price would have been a little bit too high. The HMC40 costs $1,850 and it comes with a free copy of Edius Neo 2 and a 3 year warranty.

This news is making me looking forward to what the successor of the HMC40, HMC150 and the HPX170 will be like.
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post #19 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 07:57 AM
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I am a bit confused...Every article i've read says the TM700 is a 64GB flash camcorder, but if you look at the press release from panasonic's site:

Google Translation of "Official Data"

it says that the internal memory is 96GB.

Also, how can it take a still picture of 14.4MP, and 13.3MP when it says that the image sensor has 9.15MP (3.05MP X 3 sensors), and an effective video resolution of 7.59MP(2.53MP × 3), and a still resolution of 7.89MP (2.63MP × 3).

When I first saw the specs of this, i was like..man, I want this! But now I'm not so sure. Can anybody explain how they get a 14.4MP image from a sensor that has 9.15MP? (and even at that...it's really 3x3.05MP sensors, so shouldn't that only be 3.05MP at most?) Maybe I'm just too new at this and don't understand. I have to read up a bit on my 3mos technology. My current camcorder is a 3CCD panasonic from about 5 years ago, so i figured this could be a nice step up...but i'm so confused!
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post #20 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pezgod View Post

Can anybody explain how they get a 14.4MP image from a sensor that has 9.15MP?

Interpolation Basically, they take the information from the sensor, which is at a much lower resolution than 14.4MP and they make up a lot of pixels based on a best guess algorithm of what they should be.

FWIW, you can do the same thing (uprezzing the default resolution to a much larger image size) on the computer. Depending on the quality of the algorithm they use in the camera, and the quality up the program you use on the computer, you can even do a better job of it on the computer after the fact.

Long story short, marketing interpolated numbers for a camera is a lot like taking your hot cousin to the prom. Once people know what you're doing, they think you are a bit of a creep, but the suckers that don't know what you are doing just think you have a hot date

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post #21 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 09:01 AM
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that's what I figured they were doing. Another thing I'm confused about..If you look at the pics from the engadget article, on the side of the tm700, it says 32gb of built-in memory. So, the Japanese version has 96gb (it says that on the side of the camcorder in the images on panasonic's site), the US version says it has 32 on the side...but everybody is reporting 64gb?

I don't mind the whole scaling of the image...because frankly, I think anything over 5MP is overkill for me anyway (really...how often to i get prints made that are bigger than 4x6??) so all that extra resolution is lost for me no matter what, and I normally have what I want for the picture in frame already, so i don't really crop or zoom anything either.

This whole memory thing really bothers me though...also, i did the math. using the 28mbps H.264 1080/60p mode nets you about 5 minutes per GB. That's an expensive mode to be shooting in if you want to keep all of your recordings as backups (as i like to do), which is why I'm hesitant about leaving my miniDV tapes!
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post #22 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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MiniDV tapes are using 25Mbps for SD (720x480i) or HD (1440x1080x60i), and you're trying to encode at the least 3 times more pixels per second at 1920x1080x60p, so I personally don't see 28Mbps as a big deal, especially when 2TB external drives are available for less than $140 and still going down in price.

Now, the MOV/H.264 ~40Mbps that Canon puts in all its DSLR and P&S for only 1080p30 on the other hand...
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post #23 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjut View Post

MiniDV tapes are using 25Mbps for SD (720x480i) or HD (1440x1080x60i), and you're trying to encode at the least 3 times more pixels per second at 1920x1080x60p, so I personally don't see 28Mbps as a big deal, especially when 2TB external drives are available for less than $140 and still going down in price.

Oh, I'm not worried about storage space on my computer. that's not a problem!!! But i can get 1 hour of footage on a miniDV tape for < $2.00, where 1 hour on an SD card is going to cost me > $20. Granted, there is the i vs p, as well as 1440 vs 1920 (but the PAR is different for HDV as well). I'm all about getting better quality, but like I said, I like to keep my original source. For my digital camera, when I fill up my memory card, I put it away and don't reuse (i know that sort of defeats the purpose of reusable media, but i have a fear of losing all my data, even with my backup hard drives and burned disks), and i don't reuse my miniDV tapes either. So this would be very costly for me. Hopefully flash memory keeps dropping in price as well!



also... I did not now that the dslrs did 40mbps, how much space does that take up!!! jeez! (granted, that is only 30p, but still!)
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post #24 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I command you on your redundency efforts.

But at $70/1TB for a decent external HDD, your tapes are not only inconvenient to use (have to do everything real time), but they're actually much more expensive, as it takes about 84 tapes to store the same amount of data (~12GB per tape). At $2 each (which is not HDV grade at that price, whatever that means), that would cost you over double what HDD space costs.

You might bring the fact that the HDD medium is more prone to failures, but tapes aren't perfect either (I've experienced data corruption within 5 years, that might not be typical, but it happened to me). For the price difference, you can rest assured that you'll be able to move your data every 5 years for cheaper (in 5 years time frame, I suspect 10TB will be at around $100). While your tapes are probably going to go up in price since there are less and less camcorders using them on the market. Note that no DV or HDV consumer camcorder were announced in 2010 from any company. And let's not forget that you'll have to keep that tape-based camcorder in working order to be able to use the tapes if you ever need them. That's still possible right now, though somewhat harder already (try to find a new HDV cam right now, it's not easy). Now, think in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Bottom line, your HDD content is medium agnostic... you can easily transfer it to whatever cool medium will come in the future using any current or future PC. You tapes on the other hand are tied up to the HDV miniDV medium and will require hardware and lots of time to transfer.

My $0.02...
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post #25 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 11:06 AM
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It will be interesting to see how it actually performs. Specs such as bitrate are usually overrated. For example, megapixels means almost nothing in digital still camera, especially relative to the optics, sensor quality, electronic processing, etc. Similarly, the CX500 delivers class-leading quality in a very parsimonious 16mbps.

Speaking of quality, I was really impressed by the production quality of this video, which was shot with a Canon 7d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

The new Canon Rebel T2i appears to have the same sensor and capabilities for $1000 less: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=19943
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post #26 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjut View Post

I command you on your redundency efforts.
And let's not forget that you'll have to keep that tape-based camcorder in working order to be able to use the tapes if you ever need them. That's still possible right now, though somewhat harder already (try to find a new HDV cam right now, it's not easy). Now, think in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Bottom line, your HDD content is medium agnostic... you can easily transfer it to whatever cool medium will come in the future using any current or future PC. You tapes on the other hand are tied up to the HDV miniDV medium and will require hardware and lots of time to transfer.

Cannot argue with those points right there!!! Transfer time is a killer with tapes!! I guess I'll just have to wait for this thing to come out and get some reviews on it. I really wanted one of the canon HVxx camcorders, but i love the colors my panasonic 3CCD camcorder gave me, and i'd like to believe that this one would at least be comparable. and the focus ring is also a nice feature.

I still like my redundancy, one of the downfalls of working with computers all day i guess! But that is very true, with these, it's just a file i'd be moving around, i could toss it onto 5 hdds if i wanted to! (the odds of them all going down at the same time are pretty slim...slim, but still possible!!!!)
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post #27 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 02:24 PM
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Looking at the Amazon UK price of the internal flash version, the TM700, it's £999.99 so when you convert that to US dollars, it's $1,569.54, which indicates that the US price will probably retail for around $1,100 to $1,200 at the most for that model.
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post #28 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 03:16 PM
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Ok. I give up with the specs on this camcorder! 32gb or 64gb or 96gb??? I'm starting to lean more toward the 32gb number...seeing as how that is what has been on the side of most of the images i've seen (excluding the Japanese one that says 96gb)

then we have amazon listing
"The TM700's high-sensitivity 3MOS system has achieved 11.49 million effective motion image pixels (3.83 megapixels x 3)."
when panasonic japan's website says
an effective video resolution of 7.59MP(2.53MP × 3), and a still resolution of 7.89MP (2.63MP × 3).

AAHHHH!! So much conflicting information!
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post #29 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 03:57 PM
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Going by the UK site, it's 32GB of internal storage and when you add a 64GB memory card, it's a total of 96GB. That's most-likely where 96GB figure comes from.
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_G...trackInfo=true

Now if it really had 96GB of internal flash, it would almost be like paying nothing for the camcorder. Flash is not the cheap yet. Hopefully Panasonic clarify some things soon.
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post #30 of 3783 Old 02-11-2010, 06:18 PM
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B&H has the price of the TM700 set to $1,000.
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