Sony HDR-CX550V or Panasonic HDC-TM700? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:37 PM
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So you will go for Sony CX550V insteed?

Regards
Rickard


Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

Just returned my TM700 today. After having it for a while, just too many cracks showing in the shell.

1) The fan noise was a concern. Mine would change noise by just the camera position. And I could hear it in a lot of quite rooms. Plus, fans over time don't get quieter.

2) The low light loss of detail is more then I can accept. It is way over-processed. This was the killer for me. I really wanted a very good low light video camera. Doing my own test and looking at some other sites, the TM700 really has a lot of sensor noise. They are very cleaver in the digital processing, but just too many times it fails poorly. The Sony looks a lot cleaner overall.

3) Stabilization is mixed bag. Not really bad, I just could not get good pans. My older TR900 and testing in store with 550V, I just get a lot smoother pan. Also, the TM700 seems to jerky and then lock-in. When locked , it looked very good. But the few seconds while doing it concerns me and looked very bad upon viewing. YMMV. But this seems to be one for Sony too.

4) As much as I like the 60P feature and PQ, it just does not override the above concerns.

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Old 04-15-2010, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rico90 View Post

So you will go for Sony CX550V instead?

Regards
Rickard

Don't know. I am rethinking this whole high-end consumer camcorder space.

At one level, the TM700 does so much right. And I am sure the same for Sony. But if you look at the "usage" of these cameras, they are basically just documentation of family/personal events devices. It seems the only videos today that are use by these cameras are for personal use. Just look at the Internet, it it hard to find anything that really justifies the quality of these cameras. Most of it is just boring content to any reasonable sane non-family member. And that is probably pushing it for more than 10 minutes at a time in reality for even a family member. That is what I certainly used my TRV900 for 12 years. If I had a young child, the TM700 or Sony would do just fine. In reality, they are overkill for the purpose. But being reasonably affordable, why not get the best consumer cam. I did in 1999. And these new HD cams are much less in 2010 dollars then I paid for my SONY TRV900 or even most of my Nikon lens.

I guess what bothers me is today the "real film makers" only want 24P. Just look at the RED camera. No 60i or 60P. And the excitement of the DSLR video market. Again 24P. One can argue a throw back to Edison's 24fps, but then look at the resurgence in B/W. 24P has become stylistic. 60i/60P soap operas.

On the other hand, the traditional professional video camera stops at 1080/60i. Not so much as 60P is not worthwhile, but they have to fit into the existing infrastructures, work flows and distribution processes of a production video. 60P today does not fit. 60i does. And they don't just throw it on a professional camera like the TM700 even if they could. Just look at Sony's NXCAM and the new Panny M43 professional video cam. Not one 60P button in sight. If you want quality progressive, you go 24P again. One just has to look at all the issues/concerns of the TM700's 60P to guess why we don't see a rush.

And then a new wrinkle, you have the new M43 Panasonic professional using a larger one chip sensor with AVCHD. Just like Sony NXCAM, but a bigger sensor. Again no 60P, but 24P. Not even three chips for good color. I even found comments on some of the professional forums wondering why it even had 60i, since they see it fitting more into RED/DSLR/Panavision Genesis space of 24P. They are really saying would someone really buy this cam for the 10PM news?


It seems the high-end consumer cam territory is threaten at both ends. They really don't have a clear mission anymore. Just high-end personal event capture machines or really low, low end film makers. People that just want kids, pet, family events and vacations are probably buying cheaper,much smaller HD cameras or get HD video in some multiple purpose device- not a standalone high-end consumer HD camcorder. I showed my TM700 to a friend and they commented how large it was- really. And these low-end HD cams are getting better every year. Others want the film look, depth of field only a lager sensor can do.

And the new film makers don't really care squat about video. They just want a cheaper alternative to film. Video just happens to do it, but only 24P. The TM700 would be only used by the guy that could not do 24P large sensor today.

But to answer your question will I buy the Sony. Probably not. I am in the market for the D400 Nikon that should have 1080 P24/P30 video along for the ride. It will probably meet my needs for family capture, in some fashion. And I have lots of lens that would make this fun to use. And the DLSR already have great low-level lighting. So I will probably just wait.

Or perhaps next year, the new Panasonic will refine their cam again. I am not sure I want to spend $300 more for the Sony V550 today and get less PQ even it has lower light capability and better for me stabilization. It would pale next to a DSLR with a fast lens.

Panasonic can fix the fan issue at some point. It looks like a poor implementation and the next gen of processor chips might run cooler too. And they might tweak their stabilization. It just seems over aggressive for the 5x improvement over the TM300. And when it does finally lock-in, it is equal or better then the Sony.

And I can always buy the TM700 again later this year, if needed. Maybe they will put a fan that does not have a loose shaft and temperature controlled.
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Old 04-15-2010, 01:19 AM
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Hi all,
Thanks to all for adding to my new found knowledge. I started my research about 2 weeks ago and have spent some very long nights since here at my comp. Before hand I was clueless (that's an understatement) on camcorders but was glad to see the top 3 I narrowed it down to were in this discussion. I do on the other hand have a reasonably good amount of knowledge in video editing. I mainly use After Effects & Premeire. One quick thing I want to point out is regardless of 1080i or P, when it comes to slow motion, software like I mentioned has a gotten much smarter and does a pretty awesome job at creating missing frames, even easy ways of deinterlacing footage that would fool most perfectionists (a subject for another day perhaps).

Well I just read every single post and followed every link and read each and every review and once again, thanks! I hope it has made me a little wiser. So please bare with me as I've read a lot and have a lot I'd like to say

Although I do have a decent software background it is mostly working part time with a friend to help him edit his commercial footage (I'm hourly ;-). So I just take what I get and make it better is all, of course the better fps makes that better all around and easier but from reading a lot of the posts I would say a few here are new to video in general and probably unfamilliar with what can be done with the right apps.

I shoot underwater video when I go scuba diving with my aging Olympus and that has always been fine for me but the video I work with is much better quality. Well, now I have reason to buy something much better. My baby sister is getting married and asked me to of course shoot the wedding, and although I told her what a huge mistake that was, am automatically commited, so here I am, hehe.

I don't really have a question, but after reading all this great info and many differences of opinion thought I would share my own. I can agree with someones point I think they were trying to make where I would have liked to see the review also showing some comparisons at the same resolution and frame rate. So it is obvious that the TM700 seems to be the better camera, but would like to see a comparison of what it does (what they all can do) given the same res/fps. I look forward to seeing more, but for me I don't think 1080 @60p is as big a selling point if the camera can't at least keep up with the Canon and the Sony at what they can do. What worried me or caught my attention was how much the reviewer pointed out how much better it was at 60p in comparison to it's 60i. Knowing this info is pretty important to me anyway.

Looking at what I might use my new camcorder for after the wedding would be family fun and lots of green screen play, but don't want to invest in something that might only out perform the other two "Only" because of the 60p factor. If it's 60i is at least close to the other two then I'll probably get my credit card out soon as I see that.

I currently use CS3 Production Premium, but will soon have CS5 and don't see not being able to work with 1080/60p since CS4 can, although I need to look into the exact format more. If it's just MPEG4 then that's fine.

Anywho, I'm sure there will be a ton of more reviews coming in the next few weeks and I have time to wait and continue to read and learn from forums like this since the wedding is still months away.

Haha, besides I have many hundreds of hours of work ahead of me just in getting my Blueray templates and various ideas done in After Effects before I'll even turn one on.
So many thanks all, I'm sure whatever you all decide on out of these 3 will make you more than happy.
~Dan
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Old 04-15-2010, 02:44 AM
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I'm sitting on a fence as well, trying to decide which camera to choose. Originally I planned to purchase CX550, then heard about TM700 and read many posts saying its PQ is far better than that of Sony.

The problem is here in China Sony has very strong presence, good after-sales service network, and - what's most important - CX550 is already available and some discounts are offered already as well.

Now my old Sony PC5E that accompanied me on many trips for the last decade is dying and I cannot allow it - I have hundreds of footage on tapes that will have to be transferred to PC, and I need it for that. Hence I desperately need a new camorder - ASAP.

Last year I was already planning to get CX500, but without any manual controls and viefinder I decided to wait. In the meantime TM300 appeared and I thought of purchasing it too. The problem was it was basically impossible to find, and when finally I could get it it was beginning of this year and news about new CX550 set me on it.
I'm afraid TM700 may be available for sale here not earlier than at the end of the year.

I've been considering buying TM700 online, but its warranty will not be valid here, and biesides I want to try it before buying it. The fan issue does not make things easier either, just like blue dot for Sony.

What I usually film are demos of traditional martial arts in China, as well as interviews with monks living in temples and seclusion. Hence the need for a camcorder that works well for movements as well as in low light. But here's another thing - 13 years ago I was able to meet and film an old master of a very rare style. The master passed away and it appears I'm the only person who has him on video. Now when I think of it many would accept even mediocre quality just to see an old timer doing his thing. Of course good quality would be better, but at the end of the day it is the contents that matters, and quality is secondary.

The first Sony I had was a Hi8 camcorder I purchased in 1991. It disappointed me a bit, but PC5E has worked fine for 10 years, and I regained my trust in Sony. I know close to nothing about Panasonic products - just that it is very difficult to purchase them, impossible to try in a shop (Canon and Sony have special showrooms allowin one to play with their products), and who knows how they would deal with quality problems.

I think I will toss a coin...
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

...

Thanks for all the comments about your first-hand experience with TM700.
But I wanted to mention that there is market for these camcorders out there, in between of film makers and casual family-video people.. Many people do amateur video of something they're excited with. That can be sports (like me), model planes (see start of thread), martial arts (post just before mine), and tons of other stuff. And while we'd all be happy to have money for a true film makers dreams like RED camera (boy, would I want that one!) - we simply can't afford them. This is next best thing to those unreachable cams.. Besides, it gives you "future-proof" equipment with which you won't feel you want to change for another one after 6 months. There are also many people that simply are frustrated with image quality of cams that you mention (those "pocket-size" HD cams come to my mind). I'm in that category as well. I've seen video quality of a 300$ "HD camera" and it simply - sucks. Why? I want HD because of the details, sharpness. And those cams have picture quality that's almost as lousy as when I take 848x480 video with my Panasonic DMC-FZ7 digital (still) camera, re-encode it to H264, and stretch it over my 1080 pixel screen. There's no details, they're simply lost.. So why would I waste 300$ ?! I can do almost same quality with ~3 year old still camera. So if I'm already spending money, I want it to be spent good. Sure, TM700 and similar cams are still "too expensive".. but I'm hoping to find a way.. Oh, and with all the 5.1 systems all around us, I can't stand cameras not having 5.1 sound recording capability without adding more equipment to it. I'm talking about Canon, which is already and expensive cam, and than you have to buy Canon proprietary surround mic to top it of. Yuck! Anyway, just wanted to show that there are people that do "need" these cameras. Since nothing in the lower segments can actually satisfy our needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sholle View Post

I would assume that the color shown in the tiles are taken from direct screen grabs of actual frames of footage. I can't imagine that the color tiles were printed out, then photographed with a digital camera to bring back into a digital form. Why would they go through such gyrations?

You misunderstood me. Sure, "tile" for cameras were taken directly from footage. But ORIGINAL or "IDEAL" tile had to be taken from them to you. If they are shooting a physical picture with all the lines and colors, they had to either a) have original in digital form, than print it out, so printer may be a problem or b) they had it in physical for to start with, so they had to photograph/scan the picture to put it on their website. There is another possibility, that they are showing test picture on screen, and shoot it with camera, but in that case there is again question of the screen on which it was reproduced (but I seriously doubt anyone records live screen to test camera picture quality). Any way you turn it, the "IDEAL" tile had to be transported from original media through a chain of changes to your screen, so it can't be perfect.

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Originally Posted by Danbo342 View Post

Looking at what I might use my new camcorder for after the wedding would be family fun and lots of green screen play, but don't want to invest in something that might only out perform the other two "Only" because of the 60p factor. If it's 60i is at least close to the other two then I'll probably get my credit card out soon as I see that.

Well, while reviewers in TM700 reviews did say that 60p is much better than 60i, they've also said that TM700/60p is much better than others/60i .. And I haven't seen any references in those reviews that TM700/60i is much worse than others/60i. Maybe I've missed something, but according to what I've seen TM700 does very good 60i video, and great 60p video. Choice is up to you! Not to mention - you can also do 24p with it..
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

And trust me, this review will also be dismissed by the same naysayers. You will find that this site's review of the 700 is the highest overall rating they have ever given to a consumer camcorder. See a trend here? Or is this a manifestation of some 'psycho' something on the part of this review? Stay tuned, I think we'll find out

As much as I value your contributions, you probably don't realize how often you are guilty of baiting trolls. It's these comments that start the negative atmosphere in here by egging on the Sony owners.
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoor View Post

Just returned my TM700 today. After having it for a while, just too many cracks showing in the shell.

I'm in the exact same boat as you, probably returning my TM700 this weekend. I'll be interested to see what other camera you choose, I don't know what other camera to go with but the TM700 is slowly getting to me... and the sum of all the annoyances unfortunately is greater than the 60P quality.
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeAddct View Post

I'm in the exact same boat as you, probably returning my TM700 this weekend. I'll be interested to see what other camera you choose, I don't know what other camera to go with but the TM700 is slowly getting to me... and the sum of all the annoyances unfortunately is greater than the 60P quality.

Could you post a bit more info? Please.. It's valuable to people like me that have to decide, and don't have the shops with "trial" return policy like some of you are lucky to have
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LuxZg View Post

Well, while reviewers in TM700 reviews did say that 60p is much better than 60i, they've also said that TM700/60p is much better than others/60i .. And I haven't seen any references in those reviews that TM700/60i is much worse than others/60i. Maybe I've missed something, but according to what I've seen TM700 does very good 60i video, and great 60p video. Choice is up to you! Not to mention - you can also do 24p with it..

I'm confused here but I think the responce is, yes, that's what I'm saying. I wouldn't be using 60p that often and the majority of the time I would be using 60i, 24p or whichever. So from the review in some instances it sounds like there is a huge difference, so my point is if they were to do a review comparing it's 60i to sony or canons and it was as good, better or at least close to on par I would be a happier camper. If it is only better in 60p then "for me" that's no good at all. It has less storage capability than others yet would need double the amount space per second (recording at 1080/60p would only give 2.4hrs with 64gb) so as you can see this is a concern. I can easily convert 1080i to what would look exactly like 1080p with after effects so price per gb is more easily screwtinized by me and I really can't afford more than $1,500 for a nice set up, like camera and accessories (extended batteries, SD's, etc...).

I have decided against the 700 anyway. At least for now. After I wrote my post and saw the review from Skoor I was not happy at all to hear about the panning issue since I think that aspect would drive me to drink (ok, well another excuse to drink). I also didn't like the fan problem and looked into that more and found a lot of users with the same problem.

Here is one video of it (go to vimeo and look up 10625064, I'm not yet allowed to post url's here).

It's not that loud in the video but from a couple posts and one particular one on Amazon that stated it gets worse (sorry can't find that page atm, but just google it like I did).

It's ashame, there are still a lot of things I like about the 700 but am still looking and at this point would rather get the sony or canon and wait until my next upgrade. By then I'm sure they'll all have it.

Edit: Found it. I can't post the link, but here is one statement that helped make my choice since I would like the idea of 60p as an option, but for me not needed.

"If you are shopping for a "flagship" consumer camcorder, when considering the TM700 you must ask yourself whether you really care about 60P. After all, it's the 60P mode (and resulting high image quality) that sets this camera apart from its Sony & Canon competitors".
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:01 AM
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Skoor, a well-reasoned rationale for your decision.

To be honest, I haven't found that jerkiness in pans you mentioned. I'm wondering if you left it in mega OIS all the time? I've seen some of that in other OIS cams I've used (a slight jerk as you begin a pan), but with the cam in normal OIS, I haven't noticed it.

I've always been a PQ fanatic, whether it be cams or my HDTVs. So for me, capturing vacations, family events, anything, in the best PQ is all I'm interested in. I have no aspirations to make low budget movies, so for me the whole 24p thing alludes me. I could never live with that 24p jerkiness and so I've never used that function in cams I've owned that had it. I'll initially test it, see the jerkiness and discard it. I've never even seen that 'film-like' effect that some see in 24p. To my eyes it looks nothing like film.

I do believe you'll see 1080p on more cams, including pro, prosumer & consumer. It's always been considered the 'holy grail' of high end video and I'd be shocked if this trend doesn't continue.

A DSLR could be a good choice for you, but one word of caution. I've got the GH1 and I think it's a great cam. But you mentioned about jerkiness with some of your pans. If that bothered you, I'll send out a red flag to you regarding zooming when shooting video with DSLRs. It's almost impossible to use a zoom smoothly when using these cameras since there's no power zooms. For me, it is far & away the biggest issue in shooting video with them. I can even get passed the awkward ergonomics of a DSLR for use as a camcorder, and the poor autofocus they all have, but the zoom....

So now I approach it as if there's no zoom capability period. That's almost your best bet if you go that route Skoor. But they do take very nice videos and you do get that very nice DOF.

Good luck in which ever way you go guy!
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeAddct View Post

As much as I value your contributions, you probably don't realize how often you are guilty of baiting trolls. It's these comments that start the negative atmosphere in here by egging on the Sony owners.

You're probably right, but it is frustrating to see these comments (even if not provoked). You see Sony owners coming over to the Panasonic thread and doing the same thing. I don't even bother going over to the sony thread anymore, I'm perfectly happy with the 700.

But your comment is duly noted.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:31 AM
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The 1080i of the 700 is certainly in the same league as the other cams. Nobody and no review ever stated that the 700's 1080i is worse than others. Comparing my xr500 (and I see no evidence of the 550s PQ being better than the 500's PQ from all the clips I've seen) the 700 beats it in 1080i.

It has better color, resolution and sharpness than my 500. So no, the 700 is not inferior in the 1080i mode to the Sony. It is inferior to the video in the 1080p mode.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:53 AM
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The 1080i of the 700 is certainly in the same league as the other cams. Nobody and no review ever stated that the 700's 1080i is worse than others. Comparing my xr500 (and I see no evidence of the 550s PQ being better than the 500's PQ from all the clips I've seen) the 700 beats it in 1080i.

It has better color, resolution and sharpness than my 500. So no, the 700 is not inferior in the 1080i mode to the Sony. It is inferior to the video in the 1080p mode.

Thanks Ken,
I know no review ever said it was worse. Not sure where I said that but rereading both your post and lux's seems to insinutate I did, but no I am not saying that. All the tests were done with the cam in 60p is all so after reading many other forums saying that is the only thing that really seperates them am obviously curious to see a review (or videos) otherwise.
I agree on the color. From everything I've seen of Panasonic I think they have the best color in my opinions.
Cheers,
Dan
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by skoor View Post

Don't know. I am rethinking this whole high-end consumer camcorder space.

At one level, the TM700 does so much right. And I am sure the same for Sony. But if you look at the "usage" of these cameras, they are basically just documentation of family/personal events devices. It seems the only videos today that are use by these cameras are for personal use. Just look at the Internet, it it hard to find anything that really justifies the quality of these cameras. Most of it is just boring content to any reasonable sane non-family member. And that is probably pushing it for more than 10 minutes at a time in reality for even a family member. That is what I certainly used my TRV900 for 12 years. If I had a young child, the TM700 or Sony would do just fine. In reality, they are overkill for the purpose. But being reasonably affordable, why not get the best consumer cam. I did in 1999. And these new HD cams are much less in 2010 dollars then I paid for my SONY TRV900 or even most of my Nikon lens.

I guess what bothers me is today the "real film makers" only want 24P. Just look at the RED camera. No 60i or 60P. And the excitement of the DSLR video market. Again 24P. One can argue a throw back to Edison's 24fps, but then look at the resurgence in B/W. 24P has become stylistic. 60i/60P soap operas.

On the other hand, the traditional professional video camera stops at 1080/60i. Not so much as 60P is not worthwhile, but they have to fit into the existing infrastructures, work flows and distribution processes of a production video. 60P today does not fit. 60i does. And they don't just throw it on a professional camera like the TM700 even if they could. Just look at Sony's NXCAM and the new Panny M43 professional video cam. Not one 60P button in sight. If you want quality progressive, you go 24P again. One just has to look at all the issues/concerns of the TM700's 60P to guess why we don't see a rush.

And then a new wrinkle, you have the new M43 Panasonic professional using a larger one chip sensor with AVCHD. Just like Sony NXCAM, but a bigger sensor. Again no 60P, but 24P. Not even three chips for good color. I even found comments on some of the professional forums wondering why it even had 60i, since they see it fitting more into RED/DSLR/Panavision Genesis space of 24P. They are really saying would someone really buy this cam for the 10PM news?


It seems the high-end consumer cam territory is threaten at both ends. They really don't have a clear mission anymore. Just high-end personal event capture machines or really low, low end film makers. People that just want kids, pet, family events and vacations are probably buying cheaper,much smaller HD cameras or get HD video in some multiple purpose device- not a standalone high-end consumer HD camcorder. I showed my TM700 to a friend and they commented how large it was- really. And these low-end HD cams are getting better every year. Others want the film look, depth of field only a lager sensor can do.

And the new film makers don't really care squat about video. They just want a cheaper alternative to film. Video just happens to do it, but only 24P. The TM700 would be only used by the guy that could not do 24P large sensor today.

But to answer your question will I buy the Sony. Probably not. I am in the market for the D400 Nikon that should have 1080 P24/P30 video along for the ride. It will probably meet my needs for family capture, in some fashion. And I have lots of lens that would make this fun to use. And the DLSR already have great low-level lighting. So I will probably just wait.

Or perhaps next year, the new Panasonic will refine their cam again. I am not sure I want to spend $300 more for the Sony V550 today and get less PQ even it has lower light capability and better for me stabilization. It would pale next to a DSLR with a fast lens.

Panasonic can fix the fan issue at some point. It looks like a poor implementation and the next gen of processor chips might run cooler too. And they might tweak their stabilization. It just seems over aggressive for the 5x improvement over the TM300. And when it does finally lock-in, it is equal or better then the Sony.

And I can always buy the TM700 again later this year, if needed. Maybe they will put a fan that does not have a loose shaft and temperature controlled.

"I am in the market for the D400 Nikon that should have 1080 P24/P30 video along for the ride. It will probably meet my needs for family capture, in some fashion. And I have lots of lens that would make this fun to use. And the DLSR already have great low-level lighting. So I will probably just wait."


Unless the D400 has EVF, AF with HD video and power zoom lenses it will not work like a camcorder. I use my Pentax K-7 to shoot HD video with lenses from 6.5 to 2350mm and the only lens I use when shooting videos of the kids is my 10-24mm Tamron @10mm so I don't have to focus it when it's set to 6ft. I main reason today for video with DSLRs is for shallow DOF instead of camcorder/35mm adapter combos and low light when using fast F1.4 lenses in DSLRs with manual shutter, ISO and aperture settings in video mode.

BTW 24p might be great for Hollywood type films but not with the kids soccer games etc. 1080p60 is the future and watch Sony along with Canon using it in 2011.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:00 AM
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Just returned my TM700 today. After having it for a while, just too many cracks showing in the shell.

4) As much as I like the 60P feature and PQ, it just does not override the above concerns.

I agree because when you're filming your family, who knows or cares that you are using 60p? And it sucks that it uses up so much memory. I received my cx550 last night and it seems great. I am really liking the touchscreen. I am now waiting for the TM700 to arrive so I can compare both. Without having the Panny in my hand yet I already seem to like the Sony more but we will see...
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:30 AM
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I agree because when you're filming your family, who knows or cares that you are using 60p?

Um, how about the person shooting the video who is looking for the best picture quality? I don't care if my aunt, son or other family members don't appreciate 60p, they're not videophiles, I am!

Would you say it's also foolish for someone to buy a $3,000 DSLR because family members think the $200 digicam is "good enough"? Some people buy equipment because THEY can see or hear the difference and can appreciate it.

I see no way that you'll ever be able to do an objective comparison of your Sony with the 700.

BTW, your reasoning about quality vs storage space would suggest you put the Sony in the lowest quality to save space.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:34 AM
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The color accuracy scores come from the deviations on the color triangle's color points. THIS is the proper way to measure color accuracy and it's been used for years in measuring HDTV color accuracy. Forget the tiles Dave.

CCI's statement on the amazing color accuracy of the 700 is based on the triangle and is valid

Ken, here is the problem. My background is in science. In science you don't only go with the data that agrees with your hypothesis, and ignore data that doesn't agree with your hypothesis. You must understand and explain data that doesn't agree with your hypothesis, or modify your hypothesis. By doing this, you end up improving and strengthening your hypothesis. The color tiles are actual visual data from these various camcorders and I think that we all agree that for ALL of the camcorders, the color tiles are laughably incorrect compared to the Ideal. I'm just trying to figure out why that is, and how it correlates with color accuracy scores.

When I look at the images above the color tiles (the color chart/grey scale chart) I see very little difference in the comparison between the four camcorders. By the way, on the color charts, the color reproduction differences among camcorders are much more apparent at low light settings.

It is frustrating, since at least CCI attempts to collect actual data in a standardized way to compare camcorders, and I applaud them for that. That is potentially more useful than random comparisons between camcorders found on the web that are in wildly different lighting conditions and shot with parameter settings that are not known. The problem with CCI is that they leave unexplained why the color tiles are so incorrect, even for camcorders that have higher color accuracy scores.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:48 AM
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Dave, I appreciate what you're saying, and I might add that my background (2 degrees in a scienctific field) is also science related.

However, you should also know that when a testing procedure cocsistently yields such flawed results, you question the testing procedure. When I see that any of these cams are capable of much better results than the tile test would suggest, I DO throw that test out.

I did that with CCI's tile tests a long time ago. Rather than continuosly dwell on it, I came to the realization there is something flawed with the test. I never owned a cam they tested where that test correlated with what my eyes saw. I think that's a perfectly objective approach to take. If a testing procedure continuosly provides flawed results, you discount it.

I do think their other tests DO yield results that correlate with real world observations
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:52 AM
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skoor, you're missing the space where the TM700's 60p will readily become the standard. Action sports video!

The capture of panning motion with the TM700 is worlds better than any consumer/prosumer cam ever made. If you are seeing the image skip with the TM700, your computer is not fast enough to handle the data. If you are playing 60p directly through an HDMI cable to your TV you will never see any jumping of the image as you have noted.

I believe the OIS on the TM700 is better than any consumer cam ever made for larger movements. The Youtube videos of OIS between the CX550 and TM700 from CCI clearly show that the TM700 does a better job at larger amplitude movements.

Lastly, there is no fan noise issue with the TM700. It is less than -50db and can not be heard without amplifying the audio stream. If you turn the volume to a normal speaking level on any output device, the fan noise is not audible in any conventional environment. In all the video's shown with fan noise on the web from these cams, there is no reference amplitude. The sound of outer space is horrible when amplified to 0db too!

Overkill for family video's in a darkly lit living room, sure, I'll give you that. Where this cam is going to shine is in proper action sports work where 60i, 30p and 24p cams make you want to puke. The skate, snowboard, ski and bmx crowd are going to go crazy on these things when they eventually see them in action.

My TM700 is going to be hung under a gyro stabilized RC Heli later today. Hoping to have some extreme skiing clips to show next week some time

Cheers,
Pete
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:55 AM
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I agree because when you're filming your family, who knows or cares that you are using 60p? And it sucks that it uses up so much memory. I received my cx550 last night and it seems great. I am really liking the touchscreen. I am now waiting for the TM700 to arrive so I can compare both. Without having the Panny in my hand yet I already seem to like the Sony more but we will see...

Than why are you wasting your money if you already have 550 and made up your mind? You are so sure you don't need 60p etc etc. You are not some tester or whatever...?
You just registered here, claim that you were happy with 8mm for 15 years.. Logically, i think you wouldn't even know what 1080i and 1080p is.....There seems to be no common sense in what you post.
You remind me of someone here (i think it was joe something) who 'bought' his tm700 just to bash it. I actually, don't believe a single word that person posted, hope you're not another fake.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:11 AM
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Um, how about the person shooting the video who is looking for the best picture quality? I don't care if my aunt, son or other family members don't appreciate 60p, they're not videophiles, I am!

Would you say it's also foolish for someone to buy a $3,000 DSLR because family members think the $200 digicam is "good enough"? Some people buy equipment because THEY can see or hear the difference and can appreciate it.

I see no way that you'll ever be able to do an objective comparison of your Sony with the 700.

BTW, your reasoning about quality vs storage space would suggest you put the Sony in the lowest quality to save space.

All I'm saying is I don't see the need to film my family in 1080p. But I can understand what you're saying especially coming from a videonut. We all know the panny features without even physically having the unit and I doubt it'll outweigh the CX550 for my needs.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:20 AM
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Than why are you wasting your money if you already have 550 and made up your mind? You are so sure you don't need 60p etc etc. You are not some tester or whatever...?
You just registered here, claim that you were happy with 8mm for 15 years.. Logically, i think you wouldn't even know what 1080i and 1080p is.....There seems to be no common sense in what you post.
You remind me of someone here (i think it was joe something) who 'bought' his tm700 just to bash it. I actually, don't believe a single word that person posted, hope you're not another fake.

I do notice that so many of these posts come from guys with 1 or 2 posts. Long time AVSrs will tell you that is often a "red flag". Not to say there aren't legit posts from newbies, but when you see a rash of them, many saying the same thing, you do have to wonder.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:21 AM
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Than why are you wasting your money if you already have 550 and made up your mind? You are so sure you don't need 60p etc etc. You are not some tester or whatever...?
You just registered here, claim that you were happy with 8mm for 15 years.. Logically, i think you wouldn't even know what 1080i and 1080p is.....There seems to be no common sense in what you post.
You remind me of someone here (i think it was joe something) who 'bought' his tm700 just to bash it. I actually, don't believe a single word that person posted, hope you're not another fake.

I'm not wasting money because one of the units will go back at no loss. Of course I'm a tester ... becuase I wouldn't want to just pick up any random cam. And I never said I was happy with my 8mm. I haven't touched it in over a decade.

1080p is probably not necessary for my needs. If I decide to keep the panny I wouldn't be surprised if I decide to record in 1080i so to have more recording time. The 1080p would just be an extra.

I'm not here to bash anyone or anything. I'm here because I'm undecided as to which cam I want and need. Originally I decided on the Sony based on specs and features. Now I have the opportunity to try both.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:26 AM
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All I'm saying is I don't see the need to film my family in 1080p. But I can understand what you're saying especially coming from a videonut. We all know the panny features without even physically having the unit and I doubt it'll outweigh the CX550 for my needs.

People who don't care about the best PQ will probably not see the value in the 700. If I were a 'it's ggood enough' kind of guy, I would never have bought the 700. In that case I would have stuck with my XR500...good enough. I would never have even upgraded to the 550 since the changes wouldn't have impressed me. But that for sure is not mt.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:48 AM
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People who don't care about the best PQ will probably not see the value in the 700. If I were a 'it's ggood enough' kind of guy, I would never have bought the 700. In that case I would have stuck with my XR500...good enough. I would never have even upgraded to the 550 since the changes wouldn't have impressed me. But that for sure is not mt.

Well, I care about PQ and that's why I'm in the market for an HD camera. The question is do I care/want/need to use 1080p over 1080i?
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:59 AM
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TM700-I uploaded this to Vimeo a few days ago.

http://vimeo.com/10834109

I don't remember the mode I shot it in. I think it's pretty damn good though.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:03 AM
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Well, I care about PQ and that's why I'm in the market for an HD camera. The question is do I care/want/need to use 1080p over 1080i?

Then you should have answered that question long before you ordered the 700. If you 'really' are looking for the best PQ, you would use 1080p, if not you won't. Of course the color quality produced by 3 chips is another reason for the 700, but you have to be able to appreciate it.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:05 AM
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TM700-I uploaded this to Vimeo a few days ago.

http://vimeo.com/10834109

I don't remember the mode I shot it in. I think it's pretty damn good though.

I'm on a plane now, but I'd love to see it when I get home.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:09 AM
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It's just a little league baseball hit. I think it's a little dark because I had the camera in manual mode. The screen tends to brighten things up a little and I always think everything is over expossed when looking at it, so I tend to make adjustments only to find that when I look at the videos on a larger screen, they are under exposed.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:54 AM
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Then you should have answered that question long before you ordered the 700. If you 'really' are looking for the best PQ, you would use 1080p, if not you won't. Of course the color quality produced by 3 chips is another reason for the 700, but you have to be able to appreciate it.

At a difference of 400 bucks I still need to try the TM700.
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