Suggest External Mic for Panasonic HDC-TM700 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 93 Old 05-17-2010, 10:59 PM
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I like keeping the mics further away from the camera. But that's just me. Getting above peoples heads and away from me mumbling to myself makes it better. Even if the onboard mics are of the same quality.
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post #32 of 93 Old 06-12-2010, 03:20 AM
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Greetings.

1. Does the TM700/HS700 supply plug-in-power at the external microphone input?

2. Does anyone have any experience with the MM-BSM-8 Binaural Stereo Microphones? Will it work with the TM700/HS700?

Many thanks.
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post #33 of 93 Old 06-12-2010, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

Greetings.

1. Does the TM700/HS700 supply plug-in-power at the external microphone input?

2. Does anyone have any experience with the MM-BSM-8 Binaural Stereo Microphones? Will it work with the TM700/HS700?

Many thanks.

1. It appears to. I tested with an Azden SMX-10, which typically requires a AAA battery. However, I tested it both with and without the battery and the audio seemed the same. I don't know if this means it will work with all microphones or not. I'm actually planning on trying out a friend's XLR mic today, which typically requires phantom power, doesn't have a battery, so we'll see if it works. I'll report back tonight or tomorrow.

2. no
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post #34 of 93 Old 06-12-2010, 08:18 PM
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Thanks for the reply, Roland.

Just to be sure, the MM-BSM-8 does not work with the TM700?

Many thanks and best regards.
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post #35 of 93 Old 06-13-2010, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Well... I've tested several mics now, with mixed results.

My initial test was with an Azden SMX-10, which typically requires a AAA battery for power. In one of my tests I had removed the battery, and it still worked the same. So evidently there's some power coming from the camera.

Yesterday however, I tested out a different mic, not sure of the model number it was a mic that came integrated with a very nice (and huge) professional sony HDV camera, but it was an XLR type mic that requires phantom power of 48v, it didn't work. All it picked up was horrendous static, it was weird, the audio sound meter would flash from the double red to nothing, then a little later double red, then nothing. On playback it was just static and silence.

I then tried out my cheapo ($10-$20) computer desk mic that I've used in the past for Skype, which has no battery option. This worked fine.

So, it seems that the camera can power some either low voltage or low power consuming mics, but in the single test I tried, it seems incapable of powering enough for an 48v XLR phantom mic. (note, I had an XLR, to 3.5mm cable) and no separate power source.

I have not used anything like the in-ear mics you're looking at, so can't comment.

Roland.
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post #36 of 93 Old 06-13-2010, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Previously I did a lot of testing of an Azden SMX-10 and Rode SVM against the built-in mic, however, I've realized I missed one very important test case. I didn't adequately compare the diretionality of the microphones.

As a result, and based on my prior conclusion, I returned both mics and went about recording with just the built in mic in stereo mode. As it appeared to yield similar quality results from a SN ratio, and frequency response as either of the external mics when recorded through the camera's audio circuits (which I think is the limiting factor for the quality of external mics)

However, one big gap in my testing was an absence of testing how focused the audio collection is. My results from a week's vacation show that the built in mic in stereo mode (the mode I used all week) is very omni-directional, and you quickly lose the voice of anyone just a few feet away if there is a lot of ambient noise.

ARGH! Back to the drawing board with even more research. I'm now wondering about the Azden SMX-10 again, or other more expensive Stereo shotguns, or perhaps even a mono shotgun.

Does anyone have suggestions for a highly directional (stereo or mono) shotgun mic, max length 9-10 inches, and a small mount so it's not bulky or heavy? I guess I'm also willing to push my budget to $400 now.

Roland.
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post #37 of 93 Old 06-13-2010, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I just concluded a Signal to Noise test for the camera's audio circuits. Rather than cross post, as I posted it to the main owners thread. Here's the link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18770673

So now I think I'm looking for recommendations for the following:

Stereo or Mono Shotgun mic
No longer than 9-10" (ideally 7")
Hotshoe mountable with a small sized mount
Highly sensitive (I think this is probably more important than SN ratio now)
Decent SN ratio, above 65 is probably sufficient, above 80 would be unnecessary.

Roland.
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post #38 of 93 Old 06-14-2010, 08:46 PM
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Greetings Roland. Thanks for the reply.

The MM-BSM-8 looks like an interesting low cost alternative to the Schoeps KFM6. Will check with the manufacturer for more info.

Best regards.
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post #39 of 93 Old 06-28-2010, 01:43 PM
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Since TM700 has an internal 5.1 microphone, I am searching for an external 5.1 or at least 4channel microphone. Do you know if such a microphone exist?
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post #40 of 93 Old 06-28-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosdion View Post

Since TM700 has an internal 5.1 microphone, I am searching for an external 5.1 or at least 4channel microphone. Do you know if such a microphone exist?

Would it matter if the input jack is only stereo? I would also hazard a guess that the onboard mic is only stereo as well, it's just the audio format is saved in 5.1, which might include the appropriate delay between front and rear speakers or not. But is likely not true 5.1. Even if it is, it's not likely input-able through the input jack.

A stereo image helps isolate sounds in a noisy environment. But it doesn't really remove noise.

Plug-in power / bias voltage / whatever you want to call it is provided by most cheap recorders. In the neighborhood of 2V - 9V in strength. Not normally enough to drive 12V - 48V phantom powered mics. And coming from a device that is doing other things, it can be inconsistent on it's voltage and yield results that are otherwise noisier than they would be. Putting a battery box in there to supply the voltage guarantees that it's there and that's it's more consistent. But still a cheap mic on a cheap interface.

Beachtek and Juiced link make preamps to run more pro like mics and feed a camcorder. You can also go the Zoom H4n, H2, H1 route. All of which increase the size of your recording device by stacking multiple devices. Plus mics, hotshoes, and other things. And don't forget to turn those devices on before starting to record the video.

Mics come in various flavors. OMNI is sort of the lantern of audio. Shotgun being the laser beam. Hyper cardioid more flashlight like. Cardioid more headlight like. Some mics let you choose the pattern on mic, most don't. A S/N towards 80dB is desireable, something towards 50dB will have a noticeable self noise. There an A weighted version where 15dB is desireable, and 30dB is a noticeable self noise.

You could go with something cheap like this one:

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com...-minigold1.htm

Or something more high end like these:

http://soundfield.com/products/products.php

Or just stick with the usual suspects: azden, sony, .......
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post #41 of 93 Old 06-28-2010, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosdion View Post

Since TM700 has an internal 5.1 microphone, I am searching for an external 5.1 or at least 4channel microphone. Do you know if such a microphone exist?

I'm not sure (I have a Sony cam) but does the TM700 have an interactive hot shoe?

Sony has the HW2 wireless blue tooth mic that will act as the center channel mic on its 5.1 system (The center channel mic operates up to 100 meters away while the on-board surround mics continue to operate). It adds some incredible depth to the 5.1 sound.

I'm not sure if the tm700 has the hot shoe, but it seems to me that if it does then you should be able to do much the same?

One added note... you can use the VIVE mic. It's srround sound... although not 5.1 (it has left, right, and rear) and works through a stereo jack (it operates on the pro logic principle). I'm not in love with its sound quality though... the Sony 5.1 sounds MUCH better.
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post #42 of 93 Old 06-28-2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post

....
I would also hazard a guess that the onboard mic is only stereo as well, it's just the audio format is saved in 5.1, which might include the appropriate delay between front and rear speakers or not. But is likely not true 5.1.
.......

Greetings Shadow.

I suspect this might be the case, but is there a way to verify this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post

....
A S/N towards 80dB is desireable, something towards 50dB will have a noticeable self noise. There an A weighted version where 15dB is desireable, and 30dB is a noticeable self noise.
....

I' looking at the MM-BSM-8, do you think it is too noisy?

Can you also suggest something similar but with a cardiod instead of the omni capsule?

Many thanks and best regards.
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post #43 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

Greetings Shadow.

I suspect this might be the case, but is there a way to verify this?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I don't know the panny cams, but I do know the Sony cams.... and although channel separation is by no means ideal, you CAN hear some one better on the rear channels when they're at the rear of the cam so it's not a simple copy and add fade/delay scenario.

I have NOoooo idea how these cams are doing it and it may well be they only have 2 mics... but then you don't really need more than 2 mics to produce a some what accurate depth to the sound. The human head only has 2 ears for example and you can hear left, right, front, rear. It's the positioning of the ears coupled with the brain's ability to pick out the differences in frequency, gain and phase that gives the depth to the sound around. No reason why a cam couldn't do that.

Now the LFE track (and most likely the center channel track) is clearly engineered... but as long as each given track is delivering a SOMEWHAT accurate sound within a ballpark range, then I don't think you could expect anything better from a consumer cam.

Also... (again not sure about panny) but Sony is certified by Dolby labs and carries the dolby logo so there has to be SOMETHING more than a simple copy and fade/delay to the rear tracks. Just a guess but I'm not all that sure Dolby would be willing to certify something as simple as that.
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post #44 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 06:09 AM
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Thanks you shadow_7 & bigbarney.
From several demos of TM700 users that I downloaded, I've noticed on two of them, that a voice come from the rear left. I don't know if the TM700 5.1 recording sound is really 5.1 or not.
Now I have an old miniDV SONY HC90 with an external ECM-HQP1 4 channels microphone.
I want to replace it with an HD one. But my problem is the mic.
The ECM-HW2 Sony mic is a good solution from me. Only problem is that I have to buy a Sony camcorder. Not that I don't want to, but I don't know if I will have a good separation of channels with it (HW2).
As I said above, I only want to replace both (camcorder & mic).
If I can't have a same result (5.1) with a new mic, I simply must wait.
Thanks.
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post #45 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

... but then you don't really need more than 2 mics to produce a some what accurate depth to the sound. ....

You are absolutely right, bigbarney.

I' looking at the MM-BSM-8, but preferably with a cardiod instead of the omni capsule for better crosstalk elimination. Would you know of a device like that?

Many thanks and best regards.
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post #46 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosdion View Post

Thanks you shadow_7 & bigbarney.
From several demos of TM700 users that I downloaded, I've noticed on two of them, that a voice come from the rear left. I don't know if the TM700 5.1 recording sound is really 5.1 or not.

Well I do know for a fact that it contains 6 channels. I had a 700 clip on the Vegas time line a while back and all six channels are in fact displayed

I also have a clip on hand from a sony camera and a screen shot indicatse something slightly different on each track (the sony HW2 center channel mic is being used here and is located about 60 feet away from the cam) This is a raw sample and has not been edited at all... just plunked down on the time line.

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post #47 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 03:00 PM
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bigbarney, I see from the waveform of the raw sample, that is not all of the channels exactly the same. That means that if you speak during capture, the left rear channel waveform is showing that.
But since you have both TM 700 and a Sony, try this one.
Shoot a couple of minutes video with both cameras (outside and someone must talk at the front of the camera).
Try then to turn around slowly and come back to the front.
Put the 2 videos on Vegas and hear the result with a 5.1 system speaker on your PC.
Then you will understand if the separation of channels is good enough to give the impression of the space where you were shooting, or not.
I already have done this test with my Sony HC90 (miniDV - SD) and the attached ECM-HQP1 Surround (4 channel) microphone.
And I know the result: Incredible audio sense of space ! !
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post #48 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 04:59 PM
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Well let me just clear up the fact that I DON'T have the TM700. My experience with 5.1 sound and the TM700 is merely a sample piece. When comparing the sample with my Sony, I think the Sony sounded a bit more realistic but this may simply be that I only had one 700 sample and it wasn't that good a sample to begin with.

But yes... the 5.1 sound does work incredibly well, (especially with an external center channel mic) considering it's at the consumer cam level. I did tests a while back by slowly walking around the cam and the center channel mic located about 15 feet in front of the cam.... and you CAN in fact hear it quite well on playback.

I simply won't go back to stereo again... it just sounds too plain.
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post #49 of 93 Old 06-29-2010, 05:11 PM
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Sorry, my mistake. "I had a 700 clip on the Vegas time line...." make me believe that you have a TM700.
I make a thought: I will ask from Sony Center in my country (Greece) to tell me if my ECM-HQP1 surround mic is compatible with Sony CX550.
At Sony site the HW2 is compatible with mine HC90. That gives me a hope.
Thanks again.

"I simply won't go back to stereo again": That goes for me too, since the first time I heard a 5.1 sound from camera.
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post #50 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 06:38 AM
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Dolby is an audio CODEC. It has nothing to do with content, and everything to do with how the resulting media file conforms to their codec (i.e. encoding) specs. Plus paying $$$ for this that and the other thing.

To really tell you'd have to zoom in on the various channels and compare them at the waveform level. Ignoring the 6th channel LFE as it's just the low frequencies stripped out and put into their own channel. So really there's just Left (front and rear) and Right (front and rear) and center. Center is probably derived from some sort of mix of left and right. And rear is likely a delayed form of the others. So I guess the only question is weather Left Front and Left Rear are delayed copies, or are actually unique. The same for Right Front and Right Rear. Probably delayed and volume reduced IMO. i.e. Not true 5.1 as that'd require at least 5 mics in a decca tree configuration. In a small camcorder form factor, your holding hand would likely be covering two of those mics if that were the configuration.

-----

As far as those mics in cardioid. I'm not even sure that you'd want that. Because you'd hear what's to the left and what's the right, but nothing from in front or behind. Cardioid is a directional polar pattern. But.... The OMNI's that those are in the particular head worn configuration are directional, because the human head is acting as a baffle. There are cardioid mics that you can clip to a hat or something. But you'd aim those forward, not out.
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post #51 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 09:19 AM
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Greetings Shadow. Thanks for your detailed reply.

The cardiods are to be set up aiming sideways, not forward. The idea is to eliminate crosstalk during recording, similar to what Ray Kimber did with his Isomike setup.

Best regards.
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post #52 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

Greetings Shadow. Thanks for your detailed reply.

The cardiods are to be set up aiming sideways, not forward. The idea is to eliminate crosstalk during recording, similar to what Ray Kimber did with his Isomike setup.

Best regards.

So you're trying to derive 2 MONO channels of audio? I'm just trying to figure out where the camcorder fits into that picture. Since if the mics and camcorder reside at relatively the same location You'd be pointed away from at least one of the subjects. If not both.

There's a 3 to 1 ratio thing to use multiple channels and multiple mics to isolate mono channels from multiple sources in proximity of each other. But that's not normally something you'd get on camcorder. Or even attempts if you're just one person manning both audio and video. Unless the content was very managed / scripted. Something which is more likely to be done using lavalier mics on the subjects.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're wanting. Directional mics still pick up sounds to the sides and rear, it's just not proportional to the primary subject the mic is pointing at. Unless that subject is silent and the gain high.
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post #53 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 10:22 AM
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Looking at your link, with that much baffle in the mix, I don't think it would matter much if the mics were OMNI or Cardioid. Such a setup is very limited though. No audience, controlled environment, and otherwise negatively affects the video element.
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post #54 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 11:18 AM
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Just simple experiment in 2 channel stereo recording. Nothing sophisticated.

In theory the MM-BSM-8 should work like the Schoeps KFM6, which gives superb sound stage when using a headphone for playback. But for loudspeaker playback, Isomike is unrivaled.

By replacing the omni's with the cardiods, perhaps one can achieve better crosstalk elimination?
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post #55 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

By replacing the omni's with the cardiods, perhaps one can achieve better crosstalk elimination?

I have the same tough also, anyone experiencing replacing the omni's with the cardiods?
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post #56 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 12:04 PM
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But in the vast majority of real worlds uses, you wouldn't be allowed to use it 99% of the time. It takes a fork lift to use it outdoors, and if it happened to be windy even that would prove inadequate. Not to mention the major stadium sans audience.

I suppose something smaller scale could be made with oil funnels, acoustic foam and metal coat hangers. Although jecklin discs and schnieder discs and other baffles are fairly common. Each with their quirks and few of them rarely well suited for the outdoors.
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post #57 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post


So really there's just Left (front and rear) and Right (front and rear) and center. Center is probably derived from some sort of mix of left and right. And rear is likely a delayed form of the others. So I guess the only question is weather Left Front and Left Rear are delayed copies, or are actually unique. The same for Right Front and Right Rear. Probably delayed and volume reduced IMO. i.e. Not true 5.1 as that'd require at least 5 mics in a decca tree configuration. In a small camcorder form factor, your holding hand would likely be covering two of those mics if that were the configuration.

As already stated, tests have been performed by walking around the cam... and direction CAN be heard...front, left, right, and rear (it does however get a little foggy when distinguishing left rear or right rear and channel separation is not the greatest) At any rate... if direction can be heard then you are NOT dealing with replicated and delayed signals.... and that's a fact.

Now whether these signals are actually recorded or engineered is another question... one that I can't answer.... but it does work.
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post #58 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 01:48 PM
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Here's another screen shot. The only thing I have done to the audio here is normalize all in order to see it better. I've done it equally across the board so as not to disturb the relationship between the tracks. It's also zoomed in so that what you're seeing here is about one second. As can be seen, the waves are similar but not the same, and the differences are seemingly random. No set pattern indicating a delay of some kind.

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post #59 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

As already stated, tests have been performed by walking around the cam... and direction CAN be heard...front, left, right, and rear (it does however get a little foggy when distinguishing left rear or right rear and channel separation is not the greatest) At any rate... if direction can be heard then you are NOT dealing with replicated and delayed signals.... and that's a fact.

Now whether these signals are actually recorded or engineered is another question... one that I can't answer.... but it does work.

Is that just a function of the off axis response of the mics? Or is the content / timing actually different between front and rear? Of course it sounds different. It's arriving at the mic from a different angle. You'd really have to do some EQ graphs for related time intervals and other things to rule out synthesized vs. actual.

-----

If you're after that baffle type sound, the Crown Sass-P MK II is kind of geared towards that usage. And was actually designed with video devices in mind. Albeit a little big for modern cameras. About the size of a toaster. Perhaps a toaster oven. It's pretty huge for what most envision when thinking of a mic or pair of mics.
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post #60 of 93 Old 07-01-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post

Is that just a function of the off axis response of the mics? Or is the content / timing actually different between front and rear?

Looking at the zoomed in screen shot (and personally hearing it)... the content is definitely different. Now again... how they're doing this I have no idea.

EDIT:
Sorry... I should make it clear here that the zoomed screen shot is also using the Sony HW2 wireless center channel mic. If I remember correctly, the center mic is about 75 feet from the cam in this shot.
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