The Official Panasonic HDC-HS/SD/TM700 Owners thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1625 Old 08-21-2010, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post


What's also handy about this is you can do this with a standard DVD as well, it need not be a BD disc, which makes it very accessible to many people who don't have BD burners, but do have DVD burners which are very common.

I haven't made any discs yet. So you'd just choose some kind of data option instead of the option that's for most BD players when burning?
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post #812 of 1625 Old 08-21-2010, 11:43 PM
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a bit of video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORiyy1OxKLk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jl9skpH-Z0 http://www.multiupload.com/NH9R1Z4T4M wmv 50p native


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qPfNpU_Ris
http://www.multiupload.com/4GC2R0Z8PFwmv 50p native

comments!! :P
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post #813 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 02:35 PM
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I just ordered three of these cameras for my business and was wanting to know if anyone has created a comprehensive guide to capturing and editing the 60p video as well as a guide to all the other trips and tricks?

If so, please provide a link or links to the best info out there.

I want to be able to get my guys info so that they won't spend an entire day frustrated.

Thanks in advance.
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post #814 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 02:48 PM
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post #815 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajun_Mike View Post

I just ordered three of these cameras for my business and was wanting to know if anyone has created a comprehensive guide to capturing and editing the 60p video as well as a guide to all the other trips and tricks?

If so, please provide a link or links to the best info out there.

I want to be able to get my guys info so that they won't spend an entire day frustrated.

Thanks in advance.

I'll assume this is professional use and PC environment. Step 1: get Intel Core i7 CPU & nVidia GTX480 GPU for their workstations. Step 2: get Premiere CS5. Step 3: install everything, Windows 7 64bit preffered. Step 4: connect TM700 with USB cable (after recording something). Step 5: copy all, paste on PC. Step 6: open Premiere. Step 7: drag&drop MTS files that you've copied from cam to PC into Premiere's Library. Step 8: drag one video file to "new item" icon at the bottom of library box. Step 9: drag other files to timeline and edit like hell. Step 10: export to the format of your liking. Done! Steps 1-3 are most important. If you're on Mac - buy them PC workstation based on steps 1-3 once you're satisfied you can deposit something to my PayPal account in return and to be clear - I wasn't joking at all! Well,except PayPal part
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post #816 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 04:31 PM
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Cajun_Mike,

I have yet to find an editing program that can ingest and edit native 1080p, and add effects and titles. If you can find one, please let me know. I know for sure that Avid Liquid, and Avid Media Composer are unable to handle that format.

DennyF
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post #817 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 04:34 PM
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LuxXg,

Are you saying that Premiere Pro CS5 will be able to edit the 1080p format without choking on it?

DennyF

Edited: According to the Adobe Premiere forums, the program will not handle the 59.97 FPS frame rate, only the 24 and 30.
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post #818 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 05:14 PM
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Edius Neo Booster 2.5 will edit 60p files easily.

Not sure if will meet all your "adding effects" needs, however.

Alan
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post #819 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahender View Post

Edius Neo Booster 2.5 will edit 60p files easily.

Not sure if will meet all your "adding effects" needs, however.

Alan

While true, I don't believe the way this works is what you'd expect.

Neo Booster 2.5 will indeed edit 60P files easier than any other editing tool available (especially on mid range spec machines).

However, I believe it is only doing so at 30fps (it drops every other frame). I believe this for several reasons:
1. The frame counter only shows frames up to 29, not 59
2. The motion looks like 29.97fps not 59.94fps
3. You can only output at 29.97fps.

This is enough of a conclusive set of indicators to me to believe that while it can truly edit 60P files, it's only doing so at 29.97.

Roland.
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post #820 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxZg View Post

I'll assume this is professional use and PC environment. Step 1: get Intel Core i7 CPU & nVidia GTX480 GPU for their workstations. Step 2: get Premiere CS5. Step 3: install everything, Windows 7 64bit preffered. Step 4: connect TM700 with USB cable (after recording something). Step 5: copy all, paste on PC. Step 6: open Premiere. Step 7: drag&drop MTS files that you've copied from cam to PC into Premiere's Library. Step 8: drag one video file to "new item" icon at the bottom of library box. Step 9: drag other files to timeline and edit like hell. Step 10: export to the format of your liking. Done! Steps 1-3 are most important. If you're on Mac - buy them PC workstation based on steps 1-3 once you're satisfied you can deposit something to my PayPal account in return and to be clear - I wasn't joking at all! Well,except PayPal part

I know there was a "trick" to edit 1080/60P video using Adobe Premium Pro CS5, by typing into one of the formats "59.97) when adding a file...I can't find this on this site....do you know how to do this without being limited to only the 24 or 30 fps?

Rick
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post #821 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich121 View Post

I know there was a "trick" to edit 1080/60P video using Adobe Premium Pro CS5, by typing into one of the formats "59.97) when adding a file...I can't find this on this site....do you know how to do this without being limited to only the 24 or 30 fps?

Rick

On the second screen of setting up a new project, (1st screen is about project name and scratch locations) 2nd page is where you setup project preferences. Pick one of the standard presets then you need to go to the "General" tab, and select "Desktop" as the preset, then lower down you'll see frame rates.

Roland.
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post #822 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

While true, I don't believe the way this works is what you'd expect.

Neo Booster 2.5 will indeed edit 60P files easier than any other editing tool available (especially on mid range spec machines).

However, I believe it is only doing so at 30fps (it drops every other frame). I believe this for several reasons:
1. The frame counter only shows frames up to 29, not 59
2. The motion looks like 29.97fps not 59.94fps
3. You can only output at 29.97fps.

This is enough of a conclusive set of indicators to me to believe that while it can truly edit 60P files, it's only doing so at 29.97.

Roland.

I have the same feeling too. Playing back all my converted video, seems the motion a bit slower than the original.
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post #823 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxZg View Post

I'll assume this is professional use and PC environment. Step 1: get Intel Core i7 CPU & nVidia GTX480 GPU for their workstations. Step 2: get Premiere CS5. Step 3: install everything, Windows 7 64bit preffered. Step 4: connect TM700 with USB cable (after recording something). Step 5: copy all, paste on PC. Step 6: open Premiere. Step 7: drag&drop MTS files that you've copied from cam to PC into Premiere's Library. Step 8: drag one video file to "new item" icon at the bottom of library box. Step 9: drag other files to timeline and edit like hell. Step 10: export to the format of your liking. Done! Steps 1-3 are most important.

It's not quite that easy, at least if you want 60P output.

If you're happy with Blu-Ray 60i output, any decent laptop is probably enough. If you really want full 60P output, it's quite a hassle, read on...

Not just any Core i7 is enough. Final render times are very slow, even with my Core i7 980X overclocked to 4.3Ghz. For professional usage you'd certainly want the 6 Core version of Core i7, the 980X.

Windows 7 64bit isn't optional, it's mandatory for running Premiere CS5.

Memory I would advise you need 12GB, you might get away with less, but I find that Media Encoder is extremely memory hungry, it will use as much as you can give it. I allocated 9GB, it used all of it.

An nVidia CUDA card is absolutely required for professional usage. The GTX 480 recommended is a good choice. I have a GTX 470 significantly overclocked (to beyond 480 speeds). This speeds up preview render time by 10x versus software encoding on my 980X. wow! Without CUDA enabled playback isn't smooth at all.

The most significant thing I need to add though is you'll need additional software and hardware beyond what is recommended above. I have found that editing the native MTS files still isn't smooth, especially during transitions.

Software: I need to do some more testing, but my initial results indicate you may also need to convert the MTS files to AVI using Neo Scene ($100). Once you have the files in AVI, then they work smooth on my PC. CPU and GPU usage is still fairly high utilization, but not typically over 50%, and everything runs smoothly. I need to try some more MTS editing, to see if I can get it working and save myself the $100, but it doesn't look likely.

Hardware: You need a super fast RAID-0 array. At least 4 HDD's or 2 SSD's minimum. The CS5 full resolution preview files run around 270MB/s if you go with 8bit depth, and 333MB/s if you go with 10bit depth. To run smoothly your array will need to be significantly higher. Fortunately both my 4 HDD and 2 SSD arrays push more than 400MB/s.

Output is a complete nightmare, this is where it gets really difficult, as if the above wasn't problematic enough....

I created a test output file with transitions, and one small PIP sequence. 2:58 in duration (that's minutes and seconds).

H.264 output plays back just about OK on my editing machine, but not on my Xeon / GTX 275, where the audio and video drift apart because the video doesn't play at full rate. File size ranged from 1GB to 1.7GB depending upon settings, render time was 10 -16 minutes. Image quality was nice, shame that you apparently need a GTX 470 for playback!

WMV format looks plain disgusting, resolution is awful, colors blotchy, basically the data rate simply isn't enough, even though I used the max setting, and the file can't hold the details. Render time was 10 minutes, file size was small at 0.3GB hence the quality problem.

Uncompressed AVI. UYVY Format, 100% Quality. Render was amazingly quick, faster than real time, at 2 minutes 30 seconds. File size is enormous, 41.4GB. This is too large to playback on anything without a RAID-0 SSD. An hour of video would be touching 1TB!!!!!

MPEG2 and MPEG4 settings don't work as you can't get 59.94 output. And I was unable to find any other format from Premiere that output at 59.94 with audio. There were some other obscure video only formats, but I didn't bother with them.

It really does seem that Neo Scene may also be the only option for output too. I don't have the trial any longer, but the output when I had it was 2GB per minute, and generates excellent quality, which also plays back on somewhat lower spec machines.

Later this week I hope to post a complete solution with the best options in detail.

Roland.
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post #824 of 1625 Old 08-22-2010, 10:19 PM
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Beautiful.

thanks
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post #825 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 02:23 AM
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Since I'm on mobile phone and can't multiquote,here is my reply to you all:
DennyF-yes, Premiere can import and edit raw 60p files, and output 60p files. On slow PC it's slow,on fast PC it's fast.
ahender-you can't export/output in 1080/60p in Edius,it's eiter 30p,60i,or lower resolution. That's not acceptable..
rich121-there is no need for tricks. Start Premiere but CANCEL creation of new scene (just make new project). Than import files to Library on the left. Once MTS files are in Premiere,just beneath the list of files there is "New item" icon. Maybe it's called bit different,I can't check on phone but it's one of 4-5 icons just beneath files. Drag & drop any 60p MTS file to it,and Premiere will create scene for you with correct settings. Than you can add other MTS files to that same timeline
rpwooste-yes,you can manually set project/scene settings by going to Desktop,and picking framerate,but above is much faster..and you can't go wrong
As for editing,few notes. First Window7 is NOT mandatory, you can use Vista 64bit as well,perhaps Server 2008 & R2 as well. But Win7 64bit is best way to go.
Hardware that I mentioned will work just fine. Slower i7 CPU will yield slower rendering/encoding,but that's logical. If you're looking for cheaper alternative Phenom II X6 will do ok as well. If you have money,you can get dual socket workstation with two 12core AMD CPUs,that should help if you're working with dozen(s) of layers nothing will make it absolutely smooth. To each his own.. But any Core i7 9xx CPU on X58 board and with help of GTX470/480 will make it fine for most edits.
I'd personally skip on NeoScene recoding. Huge files,than you need big and fast RAID array,more RAM etc. Amount of money that would go to complete such NeoScene workflow would be too much... Though I agree that you'll want those 12GB RAM in your workstation, more if you do complicated work. Same goes for RAID,if you're working with more than just few MTS files,you'll need few hard drives to feed them to project fluently. But that's simple math. If you have 100 megabytes per second read speed of single HDD, and 30Mbps videos (around 4 megaBYTES per sec) than you can't stream more than 25 videos at once,and that's in ideal conditions.. Due to head movement and physical constraints of normal HDD, you can halve that or even less.. But that's expected. Reading 2 streams at once shouldn't be problem.. Most videos don't use more than 2 at the same time,and that's during transitions.. But I'm drifting away :/
And finally, output.
CS5 has NO problem with output. You can create 1080/60p/30Mbps video output in MP4/H264,which is what original video has. On computers that can't playback raw MTS files from TM700, you can't expect to play these output files either. But option is there,and it works. And video quality is matching. If you're pro,than you'll aim at something more to the standards,like 60i for BluRay, or 720/30p for online,etc. But options are there,and can be used. 60p playback issues are separate set of topics..
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post #826 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 04:12 AM
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On another topic, I've tried to "time lapse" an entire day. Unfortunately, 12 hour time limit means 12h of real time recording, not 12 hours of recorded material. So I have a recording of 6PM till 6AM, and than it ends.. Just wanted to mention,in case someone had same problem of understanding TM700 manual clearly, as I did so next time,it's alarm clock for re-setting and continuing recording manually after 12h.
Oh,and TM700 survived the recording session just fine
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post #827 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 07:08 AM
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LuxZg:

So the only program to use to get as close to original 60p quality is Adobe Premiere?

Alan
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post #828 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxZg View Post

As for editing,few notes. First Window7 is NOT mandatory, you can use Vista 64bit as well,perhaps Server 2008 & R2 as well. But Win7 64bit is best way to go.

I'd personally skip on NeoScene recoding. Huge files,than you need big and fast RAID array,more RAM etc. Amount of money that would go to complete such NeoScene workflow would be too much...

And finally, output.
CS5 has NO problem with output. You can create 1080/60p/30Mbps video output in MP4/H264,which is what original video has. On computers that can't playback raw MTS files from TM700, you can't expect to play these output files either. But option is there,and it works. And video quality is matching. If you're pro,than you'll aim at something more to the standards,like 60i for BluRay, or 720/30p for online,etc. But options are there,and can be used. 60p playback issues are separate set of topics..

I stand corrected on the OS, I meant that 64-bit was mandatory, and made the incorrect assumption this meant Win7 only, you are indeed correct that Vista-64 is supported, and I suppose the server OS's might also work, but not noted by Adobe.

I would love to stick with MTS editing to keep the file sizes vastly smaller than NeoScene AVI's (~3.5MB/sec versus 10x larger). However, I'm finding that using MTS during transisions or picture in picture doesn't preview/edit smoothly in CS5 on a 980X with GTX 470. Are you seeing otherwise, if so, on what hardware, any other drivers or settings that might make MTS editing more fluid than I'm seeing?

Could you please share your exact settings for output in H.264, it seemed like the best combination of quality and size, but unfortunately all the versions I output were a waste of time as the video doesn't play at full speed on any machine except my killer editing deck, and worse than being a bit slow, the video falls progressively further behind the audio (5-10seconds in a minute!) so you end up with the most ridiculous audio sync problem in playback, this was even on a Xeon 3.6Ghz 8 Thread CPU, with a GTX 275 video card. Notably, I'm using Windows Media Center for playback, I guess other players might work much better with H.264 files.

The only thing I've seen work extremely well is Neo Scene AVI's in both editing and playback, however the disk space is daunting. 2GB/min.

Roland.
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post #829 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahender View Post

LuxZg:

So the only program to use to get as close to original 60p quality is Adobe Premiere?

Alan

I'm editing with i7 930 / Quadro FX 3800 / 2 x Western Digital Caviar Black, 7200rpm (1 for clips, 1 for project and preview) / 1 x System HDD.
Using PPro CS4 works fine with TM700 native files. Output to 1080x1920/50p (Pal) without problems.
I was just making short movies up to now, 5 - 10 minutes final version.
Editing is smooth without transitions or effects.
So first I do my final editing, when this is done transitions and / or effects. And out it goes...
I'm used to this kind of workflow since a long time with other material on laptops...

For viewing the edited movies I use Nero Media Hub 10 (and it only works on this desktop for me)

One small result of tests with depth of field and light:
http://www.vimeo.com/14306271

Rendered for vimeo to 720/50p

CS5 is better for preview and easier to set proper timeline settings (see LuxZg's advice few threads above). In CS4 you have to go the manual way (as explained above, desktop...)
Cheers (and it's true that Neo Booster has limited output to 50/60i or 25/30p. But it works aswell on weeker machines, so editing of native 1080-50/60p is possible, but not this kind of output)
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post #830 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 11:58 AM
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Ok so I finally got my TM700, I do have a few questions though. If I record in 1080 60p but want to edit in 1080 i or 720 p (or whatever) do I convert that in my editing program ? Which does not seem right in my mind anyway... since I'm using a Mac & editing with Imovie 09 for now till I get FCP. Im aware of the problems with editing 1080 60p so it seems a bit illogical to think that I can convert it in that program.... Hope that makes sense.

Also what recording modes do the HA HE HG & HX represent ? What I mean is does the HA stand for 1080i then the HE 720 p? ect ......... I'm sure I'll have more but if anyone can help me with these I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
Erich
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post #831 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 12:00 PM
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@ahender- Yes,Alan,as much as I know it's only tool for advanced editting that has no problems outputting 60p files similar to raw source. There are few apps for simple edits (cut/join & such), but you can do that in HD Writer as well. Advanced edittors either lack 60p,or bitrate is too low,or encoder is just lousy.
@rpwooste- I can't give you exact output settings for smooth playback on other devices as I'm not home (and will stay so few more days). But I've noticed that what seems problematic for most PCs is 60fps framerate when encoded with H.264. Specially in WMP/WMC because GPUs don't support it (mostly,as it seems), yet WMP/WMC stupidly forces it on GPU anyway. Since I didn't need fancy stuff I've ended up with Xvid2PSP,free app,and it's H264 encoding to 720p@30fps,which looks good,streams fine online,and doesn't stutter (unless connection is slow,but that's not important for this topic). I did several tests,but I can only answer in detail when I get home..
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post #832 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 12:04 PM
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@ahender- Yes,Alan,as much as I know it's only tool for advanced editting that has no problems outputting 60p files similar to raw source. There are few apps for simple edits (cut/join & such), but you can do that in HD Writer as well. Advanced edittors either lack 60p,or bitrate is too low,or encoder is just lousy.
@rpwooste- I can't give you exact output settings for smooth playback on other devices as I'm not home (and will stay so few more days). But I've noticed that what seems problematic for most PCs is 60fps framerate when encoded with H.264. Specially in WMP/WMC because GPUs don't support it (mostly,as it seems), yet WMP/WMC stupidly forces it on GPU anyway. Since I didn't need fancy stuff I've ended up with Xvid2PSP,free app,and it's H264 encoding to 720p@30fps,which looks good,streams fine online,and doesn't stutter (unless connection is slow,but that's not important for this topic). I did several tests,but I can only answer in detail when I get home.. Forgot to ask,did you add your GTX470 to "supported" list?
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post #833 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 01:01 PM
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Sorry for double posting above, but I can't delete / edit it from mobile :-/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman489 View Post

Ok so I finally got my TM700, I do have a few questions though. If I record in 1080 60p but want to edit in 1080 i or 720 p (or whatever) do I convert that in my editing program ? Which does not seem right in my mind anyway... since I'm using a Mac & editing with Imovie 09 for now till I get FCP. Im aware of the problems with editing 1080 60p so it seems a bit illogical to think that I can convert it in that program.... Hope that makes sense.

Also what recording modes do the HA HE HG & HX represent ? What I mean is does the HA stand for 1080i then the HE 720 p? ect ......... I'm sure I'll have more but if anyone can help me with these I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
Erich

Those HA/HE/.. modes are all 1080/60i, just with different bitrate. See in your TM700 manual.
And yes,you downconvert video in your editor AFTER editting,when you go to export of finished video.
If you preffer, you can downconvert raw files with Handbrake/Toast/whatever to let's say 720p,and than edit, but you'll again need to encode final video after making edits, so you are doing it twice,and that affects quality and wastes time.
So first way is actually better and in fact logical.
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post #834 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman489 View Post

Ok so I finally got my TM700, I do have a few questions though. If I record in 1080 60p but want to edit in 1080 i or 720 p (or whatever) do I convert that in my editing program ? Which does not seem right in my mind anyway... since I'm using a Mac & editing with Imovie 09 for now till I get FCP. Im aware of the problems with editing 1080 60p so it seems a bit illogical to think that I can convert it in that program.... Hope that makes sense.

Also what recording modes do the HA HE HG & HX represent ? What I mean is does the HA stand for 1080i then the HE 720 p? ect ......... I'm sure I'll have more but if anyone can help me with these I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
Erich

You can let the cam make the conversion from internal memory to SD card. It's much faster than on mac or PC. It's in the manual. After conversion you have "normal" avchd for editing and the original files are still on the internal memory. It will stay untouched.
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post #835 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LuxZg View Post

Forgot to ask,did you add your GTX470 to "supported" list?

Most certainly. Enabling CUDA for the previews and playback in Premiere makes a huge difference, it's the only reason I bought the GTX 470.
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post #836 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 02:29 PM
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Very nice, it reminds me of the Canadian Rockies ( Banff, Lake Louise, Jasper, Canmore, Waterton, Golden and the national parks).
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post #837 of 1625 Old 08-23-2010, 04:45 PM
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Thanks for the education & advice guys .... I learned something new today !
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post #838 of 1625 Old 08-25-2010, 05:10 AM
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DANG did I kill this thread ????? lol I sure hope not ! I do have another "rookie" question..... Is is it possible to transfer complete files to a external hard drive ? I film hunts & sometimes we have no access to a computer to upload files..... I'm thinking this could be a viable solution considering one can get a TB for around $100..... vs SDHC cards . Anyone have any experience with this ? Would it work ? If not can ya explain it to me....

Thanks as always !
Erich
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post #839 of 1625 Old 08-25-2010, 09:09 AM
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Unfortunately, you need PC to transfer files from TM700 to external drive, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Any PC will do, even netbook..
Btw, there used to be gadgets that allowed copying between such devices as MP3 players,cams,HDDs,and such. But I'm not sure if you'll find any,they were rare before,and I haven't seen any in a while. Try looking for USB host device..and if you find something that works let us know
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post #840 of 1625 Old 08-25-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman489 View Post

DANG did I kill this thread ????? lol I sure hope not ! I do have another "rookie" question..... Is is it possible to transfer complete files to a external hard drive ? I film hunts & sometimes we have no access to a computer to upload files..... I'm thinking this could be a viable solution considering one can get a TB for around $100..... vs SDHC cards . Anyone have any experience with this ? Would it work ? If not can ya explain it to me....

Thanks as always !
Erich

If you're just looking to copy the video camera files to a portable HDD without a whole PC involved in the equation, then you should be able to.

Record to a SDHC memory card (rather than the built in memory). Then you can pop the memory card out, stick it in a portable HDD/Memcard reader device and you should be fine.


Roland.
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