The Official Panasonic HDC-HS/SD/TM700 Owners thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:06 PM
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You veterans,

My new TM700 is astonishing. I've never, ever seen better, sharper, more colorful images, even in low light.

But I want to play these 60p images on a blu ray player via the SDHC card. Heck, you can buy 4-8 GB cards so cheaply, use them for storage!

Is there a Panasonic blu ray player, or any other, that will play raw 60p files?

If not, does anyone know of a media player that will play to HDTV? (Western Digital won't, I understand.)

Thanks,
Bill
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bizrank View Post
You veterans,

My new TM700 is astonishing. I've never, ever seen better, sharper, more colorful images, even in low light.

But I want to play these 60p images on a blu ray player via the SDHC card. Heck, you can buy 4-8 GB cards so cheaply, use them for storage!

Is there a Panasonic blu ray player, or any other, that will play raw 60p files?

If not, does anyone know of a media player that will play to HDTV? (Western Digital won't, I understand.)

Thanks,
Bill
You newb, flip the thread back one or two pages.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD#C...y_Disc_players The table is incomplete, you can help.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:44 AM
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Ungermann, I've read your expert posts while I was making up my mind to buy the incredible TM700. But I can't find the blu ray player that I think you mean to direct me to in your response to mine. Nor can I find an HD media player that might do it in the pages you mention. All the searches I've done take me to much earlier discussions which mention the Panny blu ray BD60 or BD80 (I own the BD60, but it won't recognize 60p on an SDHC).

Thanks,
Bill
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bizrank View Post

I own the BD60, but it won't recognize 60p on an SDHC.

Now this is interesting. I own the BD80, and it plays 60p from an SD card. I had the BD60 for a brief period of time, but at that time I did not have the TM700. Are you saying that you pull the card out of the camcorder, insert it into the player, and it does not recognize it? This is a bummer. All I can say for sure that the BD80 plays 60p. Asus O!Play sort of plays it, but its hardware is too slow, so 60p looks more like 30p.

Just in case, I want to mention that my American BD80K does not play 25i/25p/50p AVCHD and BD discs/cards. It plays 25p divx files though.
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Old 11-11-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Now this is interesting. I own the BD80, and it plays 60p from an SD card. I had the BD60 for a brief period of time, but at that time I did not have the TM700. Are you saying that you pull the card out of the camcorder, insert it into the player, and it does not recognize it? This is a bummer. All I can say for sure that the BD80 plays 60p. Asus O!Play sort of plays it, but its hardware is too slow, so 60p looks more like 30p.

Just in case, I want to mention that my American BD80K does not play 25i/25p/50p AVCHD and BD discs/cards. It plays 25p divx files though.

Hello Ungerman and thanks a lot for replying!

Here's what happens. I pull the card out of the camcorder. Any files that have been recorded in 60i are indeed recognizable and are playable on the Panasonic BD60. Any files that have been recorded in 60p are not recognizable, and therefore not playable. So I guess the BD80 is my answer for 1920x1080 60p?

PS: (I think there may be a BD100. And there are 3D blu ray players, BD350 or something like that. Wonder if they work? Also, Asus is coming out with an Asus O!Play HD, a new model, so I've read.)

Bill
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Old 11-11-2010, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizrank View Post

Here's what happens. I pull the card out of the camcorder. Any files that have been recorded in 60i are indeed recognizable and are playable on the Panasonic BD60. Any files that have been recorded in 60p are not recognizable, and therefore not playable. So I guess the BD80 is my answer for 1920x1080 60p?

Can you do an experiment for me? Take an empty card and shoot several 60p clips. DO NOT SHOOT 60I CLIPS OR DIGITAL CINEMA. Shoot only 60p clips. Then try this card in your BD60. Will this work?

On the other hand, I just realized that I made a test disc with AVCHD clips, and the first one is 60i, and four other clips are 60p, and my BD80 plays them all fine. So maybe mixing 60i and 60p is not a problem. Although, the camcorder has problems playing both 60o and 60p without rebooting the camera, so maybe the player has a similar problem as well?

Have you upgraded your firmware? I did. Firmware on my player was old when I bought it. I cannot tell you version right now (I am at work), but I did upgrade the firmware. Try that. Write down before and after version numbers, and if the upgrade helps, then we will put those numbers in the Wikipedia article.
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Can you do an experiment for me? Take an empty card and shoot several 60p clips. DO NOT SHOOT 60I CLIPS OR DIGITAL CINEMA. Shoot only 60p clips. Then try this card in your BD60. Will this work?

On the other hand, I just realized that I made a test disc with AVCHD clips, and the first one is 60i, and four other clips are 60p, and my BD80 plays them all fine. So maybe mixing 60i and 60p is not a problem. Although, the camcorder has problems playing both 60o and 60p without rebooting the camera, so maybe the player has a similar problem as well?

Have you upgraded your firmware? I did. Firmware on my player was old when I bought it. I cannot tell you version right now (I am at work), but I did upgrade the firmware. Try that. Write down before and after version numbers, and if the upgrade helps, then we will put those numbers in the Wikipedia article.

Hello Ungermann,

I used a brand new SDHC memory card to take 1920x1080 60p shots. Then I updated the firmware on the BD60. But when I inserted the SDHC card in the BD60, the same thing happened. It would not recognize the AVCHD 60p files. Rather, it put up a screen with a bunch of blank squares, as it did before: it was looking for pictures, not videos. Too bad! Does that mean I must buy the BD80--or the BD85, or...?

Thanks again,
Bill
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizrank View Post

I used a brand new SDHC memory card to take 1920x1080 60p shots. Then I updated the firmware on the BD60. But when I inserted the SDHC card in the BD60, the same thing happened. It would not recognize the AVCHD 60p files. Rather, it put up a screen with a bunch of blank squares, as it did before: it was looking for pictures, not videos. Too bad! Does that mean I must buy the BD80--or the BD85, or...?

This really is unfortunate. I don't know what to tell you. My DMP-BD80K works fine. Do I recommend it? Um, I guess. I bought it for about $150, it plays BDs, DVDs, DivX and AVCHD. It does not play 50Hz ("PAL") DVDs and BDs. It has problems with some DivX files, rendering them either with wrong aspect ratio or with black borders. It has YouTube support though I haven't tried it. It does not have and will not have Netflix, the BD85 does have Netflix. I suppose that the BD85 must play everything the BD80 plays, but I don't know for a fact.

The BD80 is not a bad player, but it is not a universal playing machine. I see many happy PS3 owners around, they say that it plays everything they throw at it. I somewhat regret that bought a dedicated player not a PS3. OTOH, I do not remember whether the PS3 plays 1080p60 clips.

P.S. What is the current firmware version on your BD60?
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
This really is unfortunate. I don't know what to tell you. My DMP-BD80K works fine. Do I recommend it? Um, I guess. I bought it for about $150, it plays BDs, DVDs, DivX and AVCHD. It does not play 50Hz ("PAL") DVDs and BDs. It has problems with some DivX files, rendering them either with wrong aspect ratio or with black borders. It has YouTube support though I haven't tried it. It does not have and will not have Netflix, the BD85 does have Netflix. I suppose that the BD85 must play everything the BD80 plays, but I don't know for a fact.

The BD80 is not a bad player, but it is not a universal playing machine. I see many happy PS3 owners around, they say that it plays everything they throw at it. I somewhat regret that bought a dedicated player not a PS3. OTOH, I do not remember whether the PS3 plays 1080p60 clips.

P.S. What is the current firmware version on your BD60?
It is the latest firmware. My "display" does not show the firmware version! But the one I downloaded and installed was the latest, 2.5, I think.

Bill
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Old 11-13-2010, 02:36 PM
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I've been surprised and disappointed at the loss of quality through re-encoding. I start out with TM700K 1080P60 files, nominally at 28Mbps (average is generally a bit less), then for editing simplicity in Premiere I convert them through a lossless conversion to Cineform AVI at an average of 250Mbps and edit them in Premiere CS5 using this huge but lossless/low-loss format. Then I've output to four formats
  1. Cineform AVI 60fps: ~250Mbps - again effectively lossless.
  2. H.264 (MP4) 60fps, Target 50Mbps, Max 80Mbps: averages ~48Mbps
  3. H.264 (MP4) 30fps, Target 35Mbps, Max 40Mbps: averages ~34Mbps
  4. Blu-Ray H.264 1080i, Target 32:, Max 35Mbps: full disk ISO averages ~24.4Mbps

The blu-ray output looks just like a hollywood blu-ray from a quality perspective so I know it's working the way it's supposed to, however compared to the other formats the blu-ray looks horrible. The skin tones are blotchy and there noticible artifacts around edges when there's movement. None of this is surprising: "quality gets better with increased bandwidth availability" and I can clearly tell the incremental difference in each of the four files.

What I'm surprised about is that while hard, it is possible, to see the difference between the H.264 encoded at 50Mbps and the huge 250Mbps AVI files. Especially given the original source was only 28Mbps, I thought that after editing 50Mbps would be enough, especially with a peak rate specified at 80Mbps.

So my question.... using H.264 encoding, what bandwidth do I need to specify in the project export to ensure that there is no loss when outputing a final project?

Has anyone actually tested this or observed similar (or even different) results?

Roland.
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Old 11-13-2010, 02:46 PM
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Hi all,
What SDHC or SDXC cards have you used in the TM700 with good results.
From what I can see Class 6 is the preferred speed.
I am planning on getting a 32GB card.
Thanks,
Bud B
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Old 11-14-2010, 04:04 PM
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "good" results. To me as long as it works I've got no reason to complain. Class ratings don't really seem to be consistent across manufacturers. The box says to use Class 4 or higher but in a pinch I used my sister's regular SD Class 2 to record 1080p60 and there was no problem filling it up or transferring.

I'm now using the cheapest 32GB SDHC I could find outside of eBay scams, which is the ADATA ASDHC32GCL10-R. I was surprised to find that it's sold without any plastic case, and my speeds don't match the Class 10 rating, but I haven't had any problems recording. 7.2 MBps write speed, 8.9 MBps read speed using the reader in my Dell monitor.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:06 PM
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I posted this question eleswhere, but it may be best placed here.

I am trying to export from Premiere Pro CS5 to .mov and it works, but it converts a 50MB .mts original to the final export of about 4GB!! I have tweaked the settings a lot and cannot get any reasonable file sizes. Does anyone use Premiere Pro CS5 and know the best settings to get the best quality .mov file?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post

Hi all,
What SDHC or SDXC cards have you used in the TM700 with good results.
From what I can see Class 6 is the preferred speed.
I am planning on getting a 32GB card.
Thanks,
Bud B

I have a Sandisk Extreme III 32GB card. It works perfectly, but it is a little pricey. I chose it because I did not want to save money by buying a cheaper card and then lose videos because my card failed. Sandisk is well known for its quality. I would think any Sandisk card that is class 4 or above will work for you.
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

I've been surprised and disappointed at the loss of quality through re-encoding. I start out with TM700K 1080P60 files, nominally at 28Mbps (average is generally a bit less), then for editing simplicity in Premiere I convert them through a lossless conversion to Cineform AVI at an average of 250Mbps and edit them in Premiere CS5 using this huge but lossless/low-loss format. Then I've output to four formats
  1. Cineform AVI 60fps: ~250Mbps - again effectively lossless.
  2. H.264 (MP4) 60fps, Target 50Mbps, Max 80Mbps: averages ~48Mbps
  3. H.264 (MP4) 30fps, Target 35Mbps, Max 40Mbps: averages ~34Mbps
  4. Blu-Ray H.264 1080i, Target 32:, Max 35Mbps: full disk ISO averages ~24.4Mbps

The blu-ray output looks just like a hollywood blu-ray from a quality perspective so I know it's working the way it's supposed to, however compared to the other formats the blu-ray looks horrible. The skin tones are blotchy and there noticible artifacts around edges when there's movement. None of this is surprising: "quality gets better with increased bandwidth availability" and I can clearly tell the incremental difference in each of the four files.

What I'm surprised about is that while hard, it is possible, to see the difference between the H.264 encoded at 50Mbps and the huge 250Mbps AVI files. Especially given the original source was only 28Mbps, I thought that after editing 50Mbps would be enough, especially with a peak rate specified at 80Mbps.

So my question.... using H.264 encoding, what bandwidth do I need to specify in the project export to ensure that there is no loss when outputing a final project?

Has anyone actually tested this or observed similar (or even different) results?

Roland.

H.264 at 32Mbps can look outstanding, so I don't think that's your problem. If I had to take a guess, it would be that you are recoding progressive frames into interlaced frames, which can loose chroma, and if you're getting edge artifacts then your player might not be deinterlacing correctly. Why don't you try recoding the 1080p60 from the TM700 into 1080p24 for blu-ray? To get from 60fps to 24fps, you can try frame blending but you may get better results from nearest neighbor.

What software are you using to transcode?
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:45 AM
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If you use Premiere Pro CS5, do you really benefit any longer by using Cineform? My understanding was that CS5 now deals with all of these formats natively now which should effectively eliminate the need for transcoders like Neo Scene. Unless you are doing tons of edits with effects/text layers/multi-cam, etc, then CS5 should be fine without Cineform. I tried the trial of Neo Scene and the huge file generated ran smoothly in CS5, but no better than the native file did - so I don't really see the need for this huge file. Of course, everyone's needs are different, but I was just trying to get a grip on why I would need Cineform Neo Scene and the gigunda files it generates. Possibly those days are gone.

Ray
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

H.264 at 32Mbps can look outstanding, so I don't think that's your problem. If I had to take a guess, it would be that you are recoding progressive frames into interlaced frames, which can loose chroma, and if you're getting edge artifacts then your player might not be deinterlacing correctly. Why don't you try recoding the 1080p60 from the TM700 into 1080p24 for blu-ray? To get from 60fps to 24fps, you can try frame blending but you may get better results from nearest neighbor.

What software are you using to transcode?

I am using Premiere CS5 for encoding, however, the key point I was saying is that I see a visible difference between 50Mbps target (80Mbps peak) H.264 at 60fps Progressive, versus Cineform 250Mbps AVI at 60fps. And I'm wondering at what bandwidth do I need to encode using H.264 such that I won't see a quality degredation?

I'd rather keep the files as small as possible, but without quality loss, and at this point I'm concluding I need to encode at a rate higher than 50Mbps - I was wondering if anyone had experience and could point me at a more appropriate target.

With respect to the Blu-Ray disk, that's a different problem, the project is edited at 60fps, I can't go convert the files to 24fps and rework the editing easily, and I love the smoother motion of the higher frame rate, so I doubt I'd be happy with the 24fps result anyway.

Roland.
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

If you use Premiere Pro CS5, do you really benefit any longer by using Cineform? My understanding was that CS5 now deals with all of these formats natively now which should effectively eliminate the need for transcoders like Neo Scene. Unless you are doing tons of edits with effects/text layers/multi-cam, etc, then CS5 should be fine without Cineform. I tried the trial of Neo Scene and the huge file generated ran smoothly in CS5, but no better than the native file did - so I don't really see the need for this huge file. Of course, everyone's needs are different, but I was just trying to get a grip on why I would need Cineform Neo Scene and the gigunda files it generates. Possibly those days are gone.

I had hoped that CS5 would be able to use the native files too, however once you start getting into editing the files significantly with transitions, color adjustments, etc I found that the native files didn't play back well in preview, and also I ran into numerous problems with transitions which failed and even sometimes made Premiere hang when using the native files.

I'm using an extremely high end machine too, Win7-64, Core-7-980X at 4.3Ghz, 12GB memory, RAID-0 SSDs for OS and video files, GTX-470 graphics.

With Cineform the files are ~8x larger, so that's a pain to deal with, but manageable with a RAID-0 solution. I've found editing with Cineform AVI files in CS5 to be very easy.

However, I have run into two problems.

1. I have not figured out a way to get 5.1 sound converted from the native files to the AVI files, I can get 5 channels, but not 5.1. Given I'm only missing the LFE channel which is almost entirely wind noise, this doesn't bother me. I edit in 5.1 but the LFE channel is silent - this causes me no problems.

2. Premiere chokes on original clips that are longer than 4 minutes long when using 5.1 audio in CineForm format. On my previous project I used the Cineform AVI file for the video, and the native MTS file for the audio.

Strangely enough the project I'm working on currently isn't behaving the same and I can't use the video in clips longer than 4 minutes either. So for those clips I'm using the original clips and will probably have a harder time editing those, and have to avoid transitions on those clips.

None of this is ideal, it seems that Premiere isn't quite optimized for these files yet, while Cineform NeoScene helps 95% of the time, this 4 minute limit catchs me out on around 5% of my video....

But the final output, in glorious 60fps is outstanding at 50Mbps and beyond.

Roland.
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:43 PM
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[quote=Ungermann;19478007]This really is unfortunate. I don't know what to tell you. My DMP-BD80K works fine. Do I recommend it? Um, I guess. I bought it for about $150, it plays BDs, DVDs, DivX and AVCHD. It does not play 50Hz ("PAL") DVDs and BDs. It has problems with some DivX files, rendering them either with wrong aspect ratio or with black borders. It has YouTube support though I haven't tried it. It does not have and will not have Netflix, the BD85 does have Netflix. I suppose that the BD85 must play everything the BD80 plays, but I don't know for a fact.

Hello again,

I got a chance to try an SDHC card with 1920x1080p x60p from my TM700 on a Panasonic BD85 blu ray player. The same thing happened as with my BD60 Blu ray player. It recognizes the SD card, but a screen comes up with boxes for JPG images. In other words, it's looking for pictures, because it does not seem to recognize the 60p clips. These clips are all in AVCHD file formats, etc., as formatted by the TM700. Am I missing something having to do with the settings on the BD85? (or on my BD60?) Ungermann, you are the only one who has reponded to my post. Do you know of anyone else who has had any luck playing SDHC card 60p files?

Thanks,
Bill
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:06 PM
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For simple editing and transitions, an i7 processor is plenty powerful for 1080 50p or 60p clips but if your doing a lot of color grading and effects, You'd need at least a couple of Quad or 6 core XEON processors for decent editing results but then again even regular AVCHD files can be very taxing on single Quad or 6 core i7 processor when your combining both color grading and effects at the same time. This is why for serious editing, a lot of people will use CineForm.

To perhaps help you a bit, if your preview screens is on full resolution setting. try putting it on medium setting. That can help a bit.

Also, You should try downloading Edius 6 since it has it's own speed enhancements that becoming very popular. I tried a free trial of Edius 5 in the past and I'm really hoping they'll allow me to try the fresh new version.

The last advise I'll give is to make sure your not having wasteful programs taking up some of your computers resources in the background. I would disable stuff you do not need such as update services or even some virus protection softwares will take up too much of your computers resources. You just have to make sure you don't disable anything important. I'm not saying a virus protection program isn't important by the way, I'm just saying that some goes too far.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:59 PM
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I just downloaded a free trial of Edius 6 and I'm very impressed!
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizrank View Post
I got a chance to try an SDHC card with 1920x1080p x60p from my TM700 on a Panasonic BD85 blu ray player. The same thing happened as with my BD60 Blu ray player. It recognizes the SD card, but a screen comes up with boxes for JPG images. In other words, it's looking for pictures, because it does not seem to recognize the 60p clips. These clips are all in AVCHD file formats, etc., as formatted by the TM700. Am I missing something having to do with the settings on the BD85? (or on my BD60?) Ungermann, you are the only one who has reponded to my post. Do you know of anyone else who has had any luck playing SDHC card 60p files?
I am puzzled. As a last try, could you select a couple of the original 60p clips and make a new compilation out of them by using MultiAVCHD? Just add clips, DO NOT select "use level 4.1" option and generate the files for "Panasonic AVCHD card". If this does not work, I don't know what will. But I swear that 60p works on my BD80. Try the PS3 then, if a BD player does not work.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:49 PM
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Hello ALL

I'm new here, and have a very specific question. I browsed these 30 some pages and am still uncertain of the answer. I would be grateful if someone could point me in the right direction or give me a straight answer.

I'm planning on purchasing the TM700 in the next few weeks as I think it's the perfect camera for my intentions. I'm trying to create archival videos of family events who's quality will not be deemed OLD too quickly.

I'm also VERY into RC helicopter flying, photography and videography. I'd like to film these amazing machines in action in the highest quality possible, while preserving their unique movements.

My questions (regarding recording RC helicopters) are as follows:

1) Am I correct in assuming that 1080/60p will give me the best representation of the helicopters motion possible?

2) What is my best method for exporting a video in 60p? I am on a P-7811FX computer - 2 core, 512mb dedicated video RAM. I used Edius last night and was able to import an MTS clip and export it using 720/60p, but am not sure my results were truly a preservation of 60p footage.

So, in short, I have limited funds, am stuck with this computer and want to use software that will allow me to output in 60p to preserve the benefits of fast motion 60p recording. My main objective for the helicopter videos is to export to Youtube or Vimeo and my main objective with the home videos is to archive footage until I have a system capable of outputting video in a format compatible with DVD/BRDVD.

Any insight here is TRULY appreciated.
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mmn225 View Post

Is there a way to use the USB connection to a computer as a webcam (or to a media encoder) and have the computer recognize it as a video device and not an external drive?

Just a shot in the dark here:
(You didn't say what platform you were on but I'm assuming you're using Windows. If not, disregard - I know almost nothing about the Mac)

There isn't a way to have Windows recognize the camera connected to the USB port as a video device, but you might try putting a video capture card (the kind one uses to record directly from TV) in the PC and use the HDMI-In port. If I remember correctly most internet broadcasting software will take video directly from an HDMI port.

But YMMV, so verify this with the vendor before buying one.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bud B View Post
Hi all,
What SDHC or SDXC cards have you used in the TM700 with good results.
From what I can see Class 6 is the preferred speed.
I am planning on getting a 32GB card.
Thanks,
Bud B
I just got a Class 10 32GB card (1). Their Class 6 card was only one dollar less (2), so there was no point in getting the Class 6.

I suspect they are phasing Class 6 out.

1. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P3MCXW/
2. http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-Class-Flash-Memory-TS32GSDHC6/dp/B001PLIG68/
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:04 AM
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do you prefer this camera or canon s20?
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Old 11-19-2010, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny Hays View Post
If their the same size, WMV and MP4, then we did something in our renders, as my mp4s are smaller. I also found Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit has Windows Media player classic, which plays the native files back perfectly but the 64 bit ver of Win 7 doesn't seem to have the classic player.
Just FYI for everyone: Windows 7 PRO 64-bit plays 60p in the latest Windows Media Player, version 12.0.7600, just fine. Of course, I installed the software that came with the camera (although I don't use it), so it may have installed a codec or something.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:53 PM
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If your graphics card is up to the task, yes.
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Old 11-19-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

I just downloaded a free trial of Edius 6 and I'm very impressed!

From your use of Edius 6, did you notice if it could input/output native TM700 1080p60 mts/m2ts files?

If so, have you noticed if Edius 6 is capable of smart rendering the 1080p60 files? (Only rendering transitions/effects and not re-rendering original footage)

Incidentally, I see that CyberLink PowerDirector 9 just came out and I found a post on the AVS forum Cyberlink section a mention that PD9 supports TM700 input/output files.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19512812
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rpwooste View Post

I had hoped that CS5 would be able to use the native files too, however once you start getting into editing the files significantly with transitions, color adjustments, etc I found that the native files didn't play back well in preview, and also I ran into numerous problems with transitions which failed and even sometimes made Premiere hang when using the native files.

I'm using an extremely high end machine too, Win7-64, Core-7-980X at 4.3Ghz, 12GB memory, RAID-0 SSDs for OS and video files, GTX-470 graphics.

With Cineform the files are ~8x larger, so that's a pain to deal with, but manageable with a RAID-0 solution. I've found editing with Cineform AVI files in CS5 to be very easy.

However, I have run into two problems.

1. I have not figured out a way to get 5.1 sound converted from the native files to the AVI files, I can get 5 channels, but not 5.1. Given I'm only missing the LFE channel which is almost entirely wind noise, this doesn't bother me. I edit in 5.1 but the LFE channel is silent - this causes me no problems.

2. Premiere chokes on original clips that are longer than 4 minutes long when using 5.1 audio in CineForm format. On my previous project I used the Cineform AVI file for the video, and the native MTS file for the audio.

Strangely enough the project I'm working on currently isn't behaving the same and I can't use the video in clips longer than 4 minutes either. So for those clips I'm using the original clips and will probably have a harder time editing those, and have to avoid transitions on those clips.

None of this is ideal, it seems that Premiere isn't quite optimized for these files yet, while Cineform NeoScene helps 95% of the time, this 4 minute limit catchs me out on around 5% of my video....

But the final output, in glorious 60fps is outstanding at 50Mbps and beyond.

Roland.

Why don't you download a trial ver of Vegas Pro 10 and make a custom project settings preset, progressive, best field order = none, framerate= 59.94 (Double ntsc), in the audio tab drop down the audio from stereo and select 5.1 surround sound. Then drop a native .mts file from the TM700 on the timelilne. You get 3 stereo audio tracks, which can easily be made into six mono tracks all of your 5.1 audio tracks, and the video even set at best full on mt i7 plays back at a suprisingly high framerate. Danny Hays
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