TM700 1080p60 Editing on CS4/CS5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 16 Old 05-11-2010, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rpwooste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thread Focused on:
Adobe Premiere Pro editing of the HDC-TM700 footage in 1080p60 format.


I have been able to view the 1080p60 format smoothly in the Panasonic HD Writer AE program. However, Premiere CS4 doesn't have a preset for 1080p60.

What is the recommended CS4 custom project setup? Here's what I found to work best (but not perfect) so far:

Editing Mode: Desktop
Timebase 59.94 FPS [should I be using 60?]
Fields: No Fields (Progressive Scan)
Display Format: 60fps Drop-Frame Timecode
Audio: 48000Hz
Preview: I-Frame Only MPEG
Maximum Bit Depth: Off
Maximum Render Quality: Off

I have a Core 2 Quad 9550 overclocked to 3.6Ghz, and CPU utilization ranges between 50-75% while playing previews in Premiere - similar to the utilization when using the Panasonic HD Writer AE software. I also have a pretty fast graphics card, Nvidia GTX 275, 8GB RAM, and RAID0 drives.

However, in Premiere the preview is not entirely smooth, it drops a few frames, and has some small glitches during playback. In HD Writer it's perfect as far as I can tell. Any suggestions on Premiere configuration settings to help make it smoother?

Finally, when I'm done editing, I want to output to a file that I can playback through Windows Media Center directly to a HDMI connected TV. What output settings should I use in CS4 to create such a file? When editing Mini-DV SD footage I just output it to a DV AVI file and it was simple, this doesn't seem to be quite as easy yet.

When using Windows 7 Media Center, or just Media Player it chokes on the raw 1080p60 format dropping loads of frames, so outputting the edited work to the same format as the original isn't going to work, unless there's some codec or other solution to getting Media Center to play the 1080p60 format properly. What format should I output the files to to maximize quality and yield a format that I can play from the HDD of a Media PC?

Thanks,
Roland.
rpwooste is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 05-11-2010, 06:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 32
The files out of the TM700 is really 59.94p so that what it should be in Premiere. People call it 60p because it's easier to say. Now if it was MJPEG, that's a different story.

Under the 2 preview screens, you'll see 3 circles, click on it and choose highest quality. This will increase the quality but it'll take up more computer resources.

Seeing your computer being much more powerful than my laptop, I'm surprised it doesn't co-operate as well as mine does when playing the files in Media Player. I'd make sure you aren't running anything else on your computer and you may need to go to your task manager because their are sometimes web services that take up resources. For example, programs that updates themselves online and what can really take up a lot of recourses are viruses.

If you still can't get anything to work properly, for now, you can try down-converting to something like 1080 60i or 720 60p. Another solution would be to spend $300 on a PS3 since it plays the native files back flawlessly as long as you don't have any picture enhancements enabled. The last solution is to download a free trial of Nero 10 and see if it's own version of media center works with you.
Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 05-11-2010, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rpwooste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Paulo - my CPU isn't maxed out, there's certainly no webservices or viruses in play, in fact it's only about 60-70% utilized with premiere, however it's not entirely smooth.

Windows 7 Media Center is much worse, and certainly the CPU isn't taxed, in fact it's often at only 5%, and while the AVCHD plays smoothly, the 1080p60 doesn't, but the CPU doesn't go above 10% utilization.

Are you saying you've been able to play 1080p60 raw native files straight from the camera directly in Windows 7 Media Center smoothly? On a laptop? What kind of CPU and graphics card does it have, and are you working at 1920*1080 resolution? I would suspect you have some additional codec loaded into WMC that I need to get if you're able to do this.

Roland.
rpwooste is offline  
post #4 of 16 Old 05-11-2010, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rpwooste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
On further inspection, when playing 1080p60 premiere seems to "tear" the image doesn't appear to be consistent, it looks like there's a band that is is tearing, either it's out of place, or part of the previous frame. This effect is only apparent when it's 1080p60 playing, and the video is panning, so I'm guessing it's part of the prior frame.

Windows Media Center shows a different behavior, no tearing, just skipped frames, so it jumps a lot, although the AVCHD plays smoothly, I'm getting way less than 30 FPS when playing 1080p60, I might guess something like 10FPS or less, but the CPU utilization is down at 5%, so that's really odd.

Roland.
rpwooste is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 05-11-2010, 08:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 32
I sort of figured that about your computer having more than enough power but you never know if extra steps help.

It's a Sony 2.4Ghz Core2Duo laptop with a 1920x1080 LED Back-let screen, 512MB ATI card and 4 gigs of RAM. It's week in today's standards.

I have Vista instead of Windows 7 but I usually hear Windows 7 being far better at playing back HD files. I don't use any type of media center since I have the PS3 to playback files on a TV. With Windows Media Player, it looks smooth although I don't think I'm seeing full 60p, more like 30p. With Nero 9 ShowTime, it's slightly worse but if I have nothing else going on in my laptop it looks almost as smooth as Windows Media Player.

Something I forgot to say is that in many cases people notice a boost in HD video quality with CoreAVC. I don't think I have it in my laptop. Since it came with a Blu-Ray player and it's a Sony, perhaps it's more optimized for video out of the factory than your average laptop.
Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #6 of 16 Old 07-11-2010, 08:20 AM
Newbie
 
bmwf1gtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi everyone,
i am a teen from HK, i do much editing
I used to work with Premiere CS4
my configuration:
Core2 Quad Q8300
nVidia 9800GTX+ 512MB

My cam is Sanyo Xacti FH1
it produces 1080p59.94 and Media Player Classic play it with Haali Renderer with Realtek Audio Output sync
I came over the same problems like you guys did with CS4.
Premiere Pro CS4 or Media Encoder 4.x.x have a little problem producing formal 30+p (50p or 60p) either 720 or 1080 which MPC cannot play it probably(it plays it with some kind of slowmotion and Fraps displays as 30fps)
i upgrade to CS5 and recode those 1080p59.94 in H.264 main or high profile 4.2 to 5.1 (all of them work), and greatly smooth and clear with audio sync
My suggestion, use CS5 and Media Player Classic with K-Lite Mega Codec Pack from codecs.com

PLUS:
1. Don't use other player by China, Taiwan, Korea........like The KMPlayer, Gom Player or ......, they reproduce the colour flatly, it is like grey comparing to the original.
2. 60p or 50p, especially your 700's videos are much nicer than mine, you should at least 15mbps for that (VBR is prefered) with auto GOP (Key Frame) placement

Lastly, hope it works and helps you
bmwf1gtr is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 08-14-2010, 05:48 AM
Member
 
rich121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Anyone else using CS5 with their Panasonic 700?

Rick
rich121 is offline  
post #8 of 16 Old 08-14-2010, 07:47 AM
Member
 
janico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My PC is core2duo E6550 with 4gb RAM and Nvidia Gforce 9600GT 512mb.
I am using Win XP sp3 and K-lite Codec player to play 1080p. I have no problem at all on the playback.

http://www.free-codecs.com/download/...codec_pack.htm
janico is offline  
post #9 of 16 Old 08-14-2010, 08:34 AM
Newbie
 
kevjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by janico View Post

... I am using Win XP sp3 and K-lite Codec player to play 1080p. I have no problem at all on the playback ...

That's because you are using software playback and relying on CPU grunt to play the file smoothly.

Anyone using Windows 7 WMP11 will have issues because once WMP11 detects a supported GPU it will use it - the issue is that all current GPU's are incompatible with the 1080p codec used by Panasonic and so you get dropped frames.

The only woraround is to use a player that can turn off GPU acceleration and if you have enough CPU power - the file will play back OK.
kevjames is offline  
post #10 of 16 Old 08-14-2010, 11:11 AM
Member
 
rich121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjames View Post

That's because you are using software playback and relying on CPU grunt to play the file smoothly.

Anyone using Windows 7 WMP11 will have issues because once WMP11 detects a supported GPU it will use it - the issue is that all current GPU's are incompatible with the 1080p codec used by Panasonic and so you get dropped frames.

The only woraround is to use a player that can turn off GPU acceleration and if you have enough CPU power - the file will play back OK.

Not true.

I use Mirillis "Splash Lite" and Windows 7 Media Player, both with graphics accelleration "on" and have no problem.
I prefer "Splash lite" to Windows 7 Media Player because it looks clearer, but no problems with either.
All my video is 1080/60P

Computer:

Asus P6X58D-E Motherboard
XFX HD 5870 XXX Edition Radion (ATI) Video card
i7 920 CPU
12 Gig GSkill Trident DDR3 2000 Memory
Windows 7 Ultimate

Rick
rich121 is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 09-29-2010, 12:05 AM
Newbie
 
CarboniteDreams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've tried to mimic the settings listed here, but it's rather confusing. I have a student version that does not come with the books (part of how they save money when they sell it cheap I guess). I barely know how to use the menu.

I've searched here and google for about 4 hours, and I just can't figure out how to get 1080P60 to the Timeline. I cannot import a file and then bring it over to the Sequence window. I tried to trick it by selecting the "new" button, then "Sequence", then AVCHD 1080P30; but then it just looks like some old camera and not the extreme beauty I've seen from the web and which I know this camera is capable of doing.

I'm trying to learn, but I'm just so new. I have the whole production suite if that helps.


Here is where I'm at so far with my settings...
Editing Mode: Desktop <--- I don't understand this.
Timebase 59.94 FPS <--- I think I set this.
Fields: No Fields (Progressive Scan) <--- I don't understand this.
Display Format: 60fps Drop-Frame Timecode <--- I don't understand this.
Audio: 48000Hz <--- I think I set this.
Preview: I-Frame Only MPEG
Maximum Bit Depth: Off <--- I think I set this.
Maximum Render Quality: Off <--- I think I set this.

Later Post from bmwf1gtr: recode those 1080p59.94 in H.264 main or high profile 4.2 to 5.1 <--- I don't understand this.



Any help is appreciated.
CarboniteDreams is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 10-01-2010, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rpwooste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjames View Post

That's because you are using software playback and relying on CPU grunt to play the file smoothly.

Anyone using Windows 7 WMP11 will have issues because once WMP11 detects a supported GPU it will use it - the issue is that all current GPU's are incompatible with the 1080p codec used by Panasonic and so you get dropped frames.

The only woraround is to use a player that can turn off GPU acceleration and if you have enough CPU power - the file will play back OK.

I have since my original post found that some video cards do actually playback in WMP12 (default with Win7) successfully.

nVidia VP4 cards work, or at least that's my conclusion. I have tested it with my GTX470, and seen information from a few other people that they have it working on different VP4 cards.

Look up "nVidia VP4" in at Wikipedia.org for the list of cards.

Roland.
rpwooste is offline  
post #13 of 16 Old 10-01-2010, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rpwooste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarboniteDreams View Post

I've tried to mimic the settings listed here, but it's rather confusing. I have a student version that does not come with the books (part of how they save money when they sell it cheap I guess). I barely know how to use the menu.

I've searched here and google for about 4 hours, and I just can't figure out how to get 1080P60 to the Timeline. I cannot import a file and then bring it over to the Sequence window. I tried to trick it by selecting the "new" button, then "Sequence", then AVCHD 1080P30; but then it just looks like some old camera and not the extreme beauty I've seen from the web and which I know this camera is capable of doing.

I'm trying to learn, but I'm just so new. I have the whole production suite if that helps.


Here is where I'm at so far with my settings...
Editing Mode: Desktop <--- I don't understand this.
Timebase 59.94 FPS <--- I think I set this.
Fields: No Fields (Progressive Scan) <--- I don't understand this.
Display Format: 60fps Drop-Frame Timecode <--- I don't understand this.
Audio: 48000Hz <--- I think I set this.
Preview: I-Frame Only MPEG
Maximum Bit Depth: Off <--- I think I set this.
Maximum Render Quality: Off <--- I think I set this.

Later Post from bmwf1gtr: recode those 1080p59.94 in H.264 main or high profile 4.2 to 5.1 <--- I don't understand this.

Any help is appreciated.

OK, all the settings above (except for the 4.2... 5.1 piece) are related to when you setup a new project. So, the easiest way is
1. Load up Premiere
2. During the startup it will ask you if you want to load a previous project, or build a new project, select new.
3. You'll first get prompted to select the project name, file location, scratch file locations, etc.
4. The second popup window (after the file and scratch decisions) will ask you what type of project, this is where you can choose AVCHD, or NTSC DV, or RED, or a long list of other options. It is HERE that you need to select something close such as AVCHD 1080i60 (not what you want, but it's a good starting point). However, don't press the OK button yet, next using one of the tabs at the top (I think there's 3) one will be something like "Custom" (I'm doing this from memory). It is there that you get into a page where you can select all the settings mentioned above. Once you're done with that there's another tab called "Tracks" where you can set the default audio track settings for the master channel and also define the number of audio and video tracks you have in the project to start off with. Once you're done with all this, you can save the new group of settings as a new default, and use that going forward.

One note of caution, once you enter the "desktop" editing mode, for 1080P60 you'll be entering a whole new world of hardware demands. This mode basically is a "raw editing" mode, any effects or transitions you create will be rendered in full raw format - this is 250MB/s for disk space and utilization, so you'll need a RAID array. Using a CUDA accelerated card can very dramatically reduce the amount of pre-rendering required, and make a huge difference to the disk space you need, and could in theory actually eliminate the need to pre-render at all if you use only CUDA enabled effects and transitions. Alternatively if you change the preview size to only 50% height and width then you'll reduce the preview file size by 4x making it fairly easy to deal with.

Good luck, and if you have any questions, it looks like I'm a step or two ahead, so I've already run into many of the pitfalls.

If you're going down the raw editing space, I've found CS5 to be unstable editing the native MTS files with effects and transitions, so I convert all my MTS files to a lightly compressed AVI format, using Neo Scene from Cineform. This is another $100, but the biggest issue with this is the CineForm AVI files are much larger than your MTS files, up from around 4MB/s to 40MB/s although that's of course a lot smaller than the preview files at ~250MB/s for 8bit previews or ~312MB/s for 10bit.

Roland.
rpwooste is offline  
post #14 of 16 Old 10-02-2010, 02:48 PM
Newbie
 
CarboniteDreams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you so much!!!
I was able to understand your directions and I have it set up correctly now.


I've ordered 4 books. Apparently there's only really 1 out for Premiere, so I'll get that. I also ordered The Grammar of the Edit, so I can understand this whole new world of video and make cool movies. And then I ordered 2 books on Aftereffects.

While I'm waiting, I was wondering if you could help me out with one more thing. I don't know how to downsample the 60P so I can have it play on Blu Ray or even further to DVD. I figured that I would be able to do this and then when technology catches up to our amazing camera, I can use my 60P files that I saved and all should be good right?
CarboniteDreams is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 10-03-2010, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rpwooste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarboniteDreams View Post

Thank you so much!!!
I was able to understand your directions and I have it set up correctly now.

I was wondering if you could help me out with one more thing. I don't know how to downsample the 60P so I can have it play on Blu Ray or even further to DVD. I figured that I would be able to do this and then when technology catches up to our amazing camera, I can use my 60P files that I saved and all should be good right?

I have come to the conclusion that editing the 1080P60 files is easier and smoother if done as AVI files. This involves the conversion of the MTS files to AVI using Neo Scene from Cineform. This involves a $100 licence for Cineform and around 14x for the disk space of the AVI files versus the MTS files.

You also need to download (a free) AC3 filter - there are instructions in the Cineform manual where to get it from. Using this, I was able to convert both Stereo and 5.1 files into 5 channel AVI files (dropping the LFE channel, as trying to get 5.1 didn't seem to work correctly).

Once I have the AVI files I'm able to load them into premiere, however, strangely, any source file converted through this process that is longer than 4 minutes loses it's audio in premiere (the audio is there in the file in all other players!). This is quite fustrating, but fortunately only a few of my clips are longer than 4 minutes. I'm able to get the Audio file from the original MTS file, by adding that to the timeline at the same time as the AVI file that's missing the audio. Then by "unlinking" the audio from the MTS file, and "linking" it back to the AVI file, then I've got everything back and working.

This is a fustrating hack, but it works, the bug is clearly a premiere bug as the files work fine in Windows media player.

Anyway, once I'm done editing, I then output to two formats. One at 59.94 Progressive in Microsoft AVI - using the Cineform Codec to create a large AVI, which I presume is a lossless quality as the files are very large. The other one I create at 29.97 interlaced, using the H.264 encoder and use that for playback on typical hardware. If I was to output to BluRay then I might start with the H.264 encoded file and see if I could get that working, otherwise I'd take my 59.94P AVI output and re-render it again down to 29.97 AVI, and then take that into Encore which is what you use to output to disk.

Not only is editing and playback of 60P a major hassle, trying to get 5.1 audio also appears to be extremely difficult. So run some tests before you invest an enourmous amount of time editing a project, as you might find that you've selected some wrong settings on the audio and not be able to get your desired end result.

Roland.
rpwooste is offline  
post #16 of 16 Old 01-25-2011, 01:49 PM
Member
 
rich121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello,

I just seem to get confused each time I use the Premiere Pro CS 5 software, so, I have not spent much time with it.

I need to upload some good quality 720p videos to Vimeo, so I need to convert the existing ones from 1080p60 to 720p.

Help would be greatly appreciated.


Rick
rich121 is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off